New members/sellers talking cheap

What's with the new members signing up and posting ads claimng "cheap" or "save $" when the prices ar more expensive than your average reputable breeder, or when it's a product, no cheaper than doing a google search? Do they think that the people on here are as slow as they are? I get upset at adds from new members, but these posts really grab my attention as being posted by craps.

CHEAP! 2008 pastel male - $175 +shipping
SAVE! $30 scale you can get for $13 on ebay - $30
Etc.
Who do they think we are here?

This is a little unrelated, but kind of in the same vein. So I'm looking for mojo's on KS and they're all going for $300-400, average price. Then there's this one add that has them for $800 a piece. How can the seller expect to sell for twice the going rate? Are they that clueless?

Potential buyer: "Hhhmmmm, these are for sale at twice what others are selling them for, they must be twice as good!!! I'll take two please!" Give me a break

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

This is a little unrelated, but kind of in the same vein. So I'm looking for mojo's on KS and they're all going for $300-400, average price. Then there's this one add that has them for $800 a piece. How can the seller expect to sell for twice the going rate? Are they that clueless?

Potential buyer: "Hhhmmmm, these are for sale at twice what others are selling them for, they must be twice as good!!! I'll take two please!" Give me a break

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I would have to see pictures.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

What's with the new members signing up and posting ads claimng "cheap" or "save $" when the prices ar more expensive than your average reputable breeder, or when it's a product, no cheaper than doing a google search? Do they think that the people on here are as slow as they are? I get upset at adds from new members, but these posts really grab my attention as being posted by craps.

CHEAP! 2008 pastel male - $175 +shipping
SAVE! $30 scale you can get for $13 on ebay - $30
Etc.
Who do they think we are here?

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Everyone knows how I feel about brand new members selling... Do yourself a favor and simply ignore any post in the for sale section written by a new bee. Hopefully some day the admin will address this problem.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

This is a little unrelated, but kind of in the same vein. So I'm looking for mojo's on KS and they're all going for $300-400, average price. Then there's this one add that has them for $800 a piece. How can the seller expect to sell for twice the going rate? Are they that clueless?

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The seller may not be the one that is "clueless" here... The price is determined by the quality of the snake and what a buyer is willing to pay for it. There is a big difference between a crappy morph and a high quality morph.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

This is a little unrelated, but kind of in the same vein. So I'm looking for mojo's on KS and they're all going for $300-400, average price. Then there's this one add that has them for $800 a piece. How can the seller expect to sell for twice the going rate? Are they that clueless?

Potential buyer: "Hhhmmmm, these are for sale at twice what others are selling them for, they must be twice as good!!! I'll take two please!" Give me a break

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You get what you pay for most of the time. People lump all snakes of the same morph in together like they are all the same. There could be a difference in quality that makes it worth it. When I bought my new Pastel male I had a choice between a browned out one and a super hot one. I chose the super hot one and paid about twice as much.
Just saying not all mojos are created equal:)

Well, I hope no one buys from these new people. Not just because they are new and apparently think we are stupid, but because we do not know who the heck they are! I check references like crazy when getting a new snake, and the references references if I think it is appropriate. I'm not about the get scammed over thinking a " Cheap het pastel male for only $500!" is a good deal, but also because ( other than the obvious in the example) its a easy way to get !@#$ over. Id only do it if they made a normal post and checked out, but if they are new they should at least wait until the forum gets to know them better.

Maybe some attempt at some sort of psychology: "Geeze, he says its cheap, must be a good price then"; hoping that someone may not know the market value and assume its a good deal? I don't know, silly either way.

While I personally believe that people should be able to advertise an animal at whatever price they feel that animal is worth, the idea of using the word "cheap" in an advertisement for a living creature makes me sad.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

While I personally believe that people should be able to advertise an animal at whatever price they feel that animal is worth, the idea of using the word "cheap" in an advertisement for a living creature makes me sad.

-adam

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I agree. Some of the ads I have seen appear more to be selling used cars than living, breathing creatures. 'Weekend Sale', 'Til Midnight Only', 'Cheapest on This or That Forum'. What about 'Healthy', 'Selectively Bred', 'Established Eaters'? These are the descriptions I want to see.

I sure hope these are just growing pains that the BP breeding world is experiencing, and that these snake peddlers will realize that reputation goes a long way in this business.

When snakes are advertised as "half-off", exactly which half are you getting?

I really don't see the point in trying to limit new members from posting ads. Probably because I personnally will only purchase from established, well-known breeders. The reasons are obvious, sure the animals may be a bit pricier, but there's a much better chance that they're healthy, and almost zero chance of getting scammed. There's too much on the line for a true blooded breeder to risk in scamming someone. Everyone else though, is going to get met with a very skeptical eye, just because there's a reason their snakes are less expensive than a breeders counter-part. I understand there's people that REALLY want a morph, but can't quite muster the $$$ for a breeder's jewel, but that then means with the money you save, you should atleast make it up with effort researching the person your dealing with. There's enough of these people selling "cheap" morphs, that your likely to find some on fauna to get reviews on. Why venture into the complete unknown when there are other possibilities are far as care and health, if not quality.

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Everyone else though, is going to get met with a very skeptical eye, just because there's a reason their snakes are less expensive than a breeders counter-part.

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I agree to a point. Keep in mind that your average hobbyist can't fetch the prices that one of the "big guys" can. I couldn't sell a snake for $500 if someone like BHB was also selling an identical snake for $500. So I might sell it for $450 or something. Now I do agree that if someone is selling that same $500 snake for $200, then that would raise a red flag.

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

Keep in mind that your average hobbyist can't fetch the prices that one of the "big guys" can. I couldn't sell a snake for $500 if someone like BHB was also selling an identical snake for $500.

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I understand why you might feel that way, but I respectfully have to disagree.

When I started out years ago, at first, I thought the same way ... then, after talking to small breeders and big breeders that had been in the business for a while, I realized that if someone with 20 years of experience in the biz values an animal at $500, there's no reason why I should value an animal that I produce any less. From that point on, I priced my animals at the same prices as and sometimes even higher than the "big guys". I've had great success over the years and have never regretted it.

Now of course, if you're in a position where you "have to" sell an animal because you "need" the money, that's a totally different story and I understand. I'm also not trying to tell anyone what they should value your animals at ... I believe that people should be able to set whatever price that they want without being judged by others ... after all, they're YOUR animals. My only point with this post is to let people know that if they're thinking that they won't be able to make a sale advertising their animals at the same prices as the "big boys", from experience, I can tell you that that is totally not the case and if you value your animals at the same price the big breeders are charging (or even more) ... sell them for that price ... they are worth it. :sweeet:

I hope that someone finds this helpful and I sincerely hope that I haven't upset or offended anyone ... that wasn't my intention.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I understand why you might feel that way, but I respectfully have to disagree.

When I started out years ago, at first, I thought the same way ... then, after talking to small breeders and big breeders that had been in the business for a while, I realized that if someone with 20 years of experience in the biz values an animal at $500, there's no reason why I should value an animal that I produce any less. From that point on, I priced my animals at the same prices as and sometimes even higher than the "big guys". I've had great success over the years and have never regretted it.

Now of course, if you're in a position where you "have to" sell an animal because you "need" the money, that's a totally different story and I understand. I'm also not trying to tell anyone what they should value your animals at ... I believe that people should be able to set whatever price that they want without being judged by others ... after all, they're YOUR animals. My only point with this post is to let people know that if they're thinking that they won't be able to make a sale advertising their animals at the same prices as the "big boys", from experience, I can tell you that that is totally not the case and if you value your animals at the same price the big breeders are charging (or even more) ... sell them for that price ... they are worth it. :sweeet:

I hope that someone finds this helpful and I sincerely hope that I haven't upset or offended anyone ... that wasn't my intention.

-adam

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Well said! The problem is that a lot of peope are out there breeding BPs who don't understand that they might have to house, feed, & clean those babies for a while before they finally sell. Unfortunately, these people do not have the financial resources, or available time to make this commitment, so they have to sell fast & cheap. These may be healthy animals, etc. I'm not saying they aren't, but this I think is one of the major reasons for the 'price-slashing'. IMHO, if you can't commit 100%, then do not breed.
That being said, there are sellers out there who have just come across hard times and need to sell their collections. I purchased two beautiful BPs (a breedable female Spider & a male Pin) from a hobby breeder that had just lost his job. He took excellent care of his animals, but needed cash immediately. This is completely different, though. But he did not advertise the BPs as 'cheap', etc.

I think it comes down to individuals wanting.. say, a bumblebee for example. But cannot afford one. So they buy a spider and pastel to produce their own. Problem is, they get more than just the one snake they really want, and need to get rid of the rest. Maybe even the original pair, because they got what they really wanted, the one bumblebee. So... what are they going to do? They are going to dump everything they have at a much lower cost in hopes of recouping their initial investment, and little more. While I understand this train of thought, I find it a bit irresponsible because it is so widespread and is having such dramatic consequences for the ball market as a whole. As all these 1 or 2 time breeders are flooding the market with bargain basement prices and less than 100% healthy snakes. (why pay to feed them all, if your ultra-low prices are going to move them? Easy way to save a buck right?) But this also leaves many people vulnerable to being scammed, as with so many new breeders popping up every year it's hard to know who's genuine and who's not. Not to mention, how many of these people actually know how to properly sex a snake? I just choose to stay out of the world of "unknowns" and do research, research, research on a breeder. It's for my, and my collections own protection.

I'll tell you what, I'd much rather have people sell animals that they don't want at low prices to get rid of them and maybe find those animals a good home than have those people put the animals in the freezer because they just don't want to deal with taking care of them.

It happens all the time in this business ... I used to have a chip on my shoulder over people that I felt were "market crashers" for pricing animals too low ... I'm over it ... people should price thier animals for what they feel they are worth to them and get them into the hands of people that will give them a good home in my opinion ... If you put "market politics" aside and dig into some of what really goes on in this business you'll learn that there are way worse things going on out there than animals being sold at "low prices". That's the real tragedy in this business.

Just some food for thought. :(

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'll tell you what, I'd much rather have people sell animals that they don't want at low prices to get rid of them and maybe find those animals a good home than have those people put the animals in the freezer because they just don't want to deal with taking care of them.

It happens all the time in this business ... I used to have a chip on my shoulder over people that I felt were "market crashers" for pricing animals too low ... I'm over it ... people should price thier animals for what they feel they are worth to them and get them into the hands of people that will give them a good home in my opinion ... If you put "market politics" aside and dig into some of what really goes on in this business you'll learn that there are way worse things going on out there than animals being sold at "low prices". That's the real tragedy in this business.

Just some food for thought. :(

-adam

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:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow: :bow::bow::bow:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'll tell you what, I'd much rather have people sell animals that they don't want at low prices to get rid of them and maybe find those animals a good home than have those people put the animals in the freezer because they just don't want to deal with taking care of them.

It happens all the time in this business ... I used to have a chip on my shoulder over people that I felt were "market crashers" for pricing animals too low ... I'm over it ... people should price thier animals for what they feel they are worth to them and get them into the hands of people that will give them a good home in my opinion ... If you put "market politics" aside and dig into some of what really goes on in this business you'll learn that there are way worse things going on out there than animals being sold at "low prices". That's the real tragedy in this business.

Just some food for thought. :(

-adam

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This is very true. After all, the priority should be each and every animal's welfare.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I understand why you might feel that way, but I respectfully have to disagree.

When I started out years ago, at first, I thought the same way ... then, after talking to small breeders and big breeders that had been in the business for a while, I realized that if someone with 20 years of experience in the biz values an animal at $500, there's no reason why I should value an animal that I produce any less. From that point on, I priced my animals at the same prices as and sometimes even higher than the "big guys". I've had great success over the years and have never regretted it.

Now of course, if you're in a position where you "have to" sell an animal because you "need" the money, that's a totally different story and I understand. I'm also not trying to tell anyone what they should value your animals at ... I believe that people should be able to set whatever price that they want without being judged by others ... after all, they're YOUR animals. My only point with this post is to let people know that if they're thinking that they won't be able to make a sale advertising their animals at the same prices as the "big boys", from experience, I can tell you that that is totally not the case and if you value your animals at the same price the big breeders are charging (or even more) ... sell them for that price ... they are worth it. :sweeet:

I hope that someone finds this helpful and I sincerely hope that I haven't upset or offended anyone ... that wasn't my intention.

-adam

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I'm not upset, but I will disagree. As a buyer if I can buy a snake from one of the "big guys" who has a solid reputation and you know exactly what you're getting for a given price, I'm probably not going to buy a snake for that price from the "little guy". I'd rather with my money somewhere that's a surefire bet.

I honestly just don't think that us little guys can price our animals the same as the bigger guys and expect to sell them.

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

I honestly just don't think that us little guys can price our animals the same as the bigger guys and expect to sell them.

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Have you tried?

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

I'm not upset, but I will disagree. As a buyer if I can buy a snake from one of the "big guys" who has a solid reputation and you know exactly what you're getting for a given price, I'm probably not going to buy a snake for that price from the "little guy". I'd rather with my money somewhere that's a surefire bet.

I honestly just don't think that us little guys can price our animals the same as the bigger guys and expect to sell them.

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There are a lot of different buyers out there and they all have different buying habits ... just because it's not what you would do, don't limit your market ... it's a horrible business decision as any business class or text will tell you ... My busines plan has proven that a little guy can go head to head with the big names and be successful and I'm very proud of that ... maybe I had to work a little harder or wait a little longer to make a sale than the "big guy" but I've sold every animal that I've ever attempted to sell for exactly what I felt they were worth.

I wish you the best of luck with your business and hope that you don't compromise the value of the animals just because you're not a "big name" ... your animals are worth every penny of what you believe they are.

-adam

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

I'm not upset, but I will disagree. As a buyer if I can buy a snake from one of the "big guys" who has a solid reputation and you know exactly what you're getting for a given price, I'm probably not going to buy a snake for that price from the "little guy". I'd rather with my money somewhere that's a surefire bet.

I honestly just don't think that us little guys can price our animals the same as the bigger guys and expect to sell them.

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I'm not upset either, but I've gotta disagree with you. ;) You might have a tougher time selling an animal at the same price as the bigger guys, but I believe that if the quality is there and you build a good reputation for yourself, someone WILL buy your animals for the same price.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

There are a lot of different buyers out there and they all have different buying habits ... just because it's not what you would do, don't limit your market ... it's a horrible business decision as any business class or text will tell you ... My busines plan has proven that a little guy can go head to head with the big names and be successful and I'm very proud of that ... maybe I had to work a little harder or wait a little longer to make a sale than the "big guy" but I've sold every animal that I've ever attempted to sell for exactly what I felt they were worth.

I wish you the best of luck with your business and hope that you don't compromise the value of the animals just because you're not a "big name" ... your animals are worth every penny of what you believe they are.

-adam

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I will say that I always do sell them for no less than what I think they're worth. For me, that frequently ends up being less than the "big guys". I try to price them as if I was a potential buyer. That being said I did sell some of corns for more than what the big guys were asking, because they were exceptional examples of their morph - and they sold right away.

I guess when I price them I price them for what I would be willing to pay for them.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

I'm not upset either, but I've gotta disagree with you. ;) You might have a tougher time selling an animal at the same price as the bigger guys, but I believe that if the quality is there and you build a good reputation for yourself, someone WILL buy your animals for the same price.

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You're right, but the hardest part is building that reputation. It's like a catch-22. It's like trying to get a job w/o experience, but how can you get experience w/o getting a job?

To build that reputation someone has to take a chance on you, and especially with the higher end animals with $$$ at stake, for most its safer to to go w/someone who is very well known. But you're right that once you get some good sales and people get your name out and your name is synonymous with quality, it will get easier.

I have not sold any yet or even bred any yet but why would animals from a small hobbiest be unhealthy? mine would be in great shape because of the time I put into them & my feeder animals that have more time into them than my snakes. I want to breed for fun not to make a million bucks,heck I don;t even know if I can breed them yet,Im still growing them out.I agree that crashing the market can make some people mad but the economy is bad & only getting worse so prices will come down no mattter what.

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Originally Posted by greghall

I have not sold any yet or even bred any yet but why would animals from a small hobbiest be unhealthy? mine would be in great shape because of the time I put into them & my feeder animals that have more time into them than my snakes. I want to breed for fun not to make a million bucks,heck I don;t even know if I can breed them yet,Im still growing them out.I agree that crashing the market can make some people mad but the economy is bad & only getting worse so prices will come down no mattter what.

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On the contrary I think small hobbyists have some of the nicest animals. The problem is there are people who are in it just to make a buck and are more concerned about selling animals than about caring for them and ensuring that they have the best animals. That's the problem - is it worth the risk?

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Originally Posted by blueapplepaste

You're right, but the hardest part is building that reputation. It's like a catch-22. It's like trying to get a job w/o experience, but how can you get experience w/o getting a job?

To build that reputation someone has to take a chance on you, and especially with the higher end animals with $$$ at stake, for most its safer to to go w/someone who is very well known. But you're right that once you get some good sales and people get your name out and your name is synonymous with quality, it will get easier.

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What in the world did people do before the internet? :confused::weirdface

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

What in the world did people do before the internet? :confused::weirdface

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We didn't have discussions like this one ... that's for sure. :P

-adam

Adam I agree with you brother. FatBoy and I are new and when we sale, we will sell for what the snake is worth to us. As far as selling it for as much as the "big guys" sell it, well those big guys where little guys at one point in time. As far as being reputable well that goes like anything else thats up to how much effort you put into it. This discussion is getting to deep. Kind of reminds me of those drunken three oclock in the morning heart to hearts. haha

This being our first year breeding and hoping we get some snakes we want to keep I know we will also get some that we will want to sell. We have done a lot of research on pricing and tried to do some tracking of different balls that were put up for sale to see how long until the were listed as sold and such. Ultimately speaking I can see the view from both sides. I think ultimately building a reputation is the key to being able to sell for what the big boys are, but you don't build your reputation by starting out selling 1K+ morphs. You start out on the lower end where people are more willing to take a risk. Then as your reputation builds through good customer service you can start selling those more expensive morphs. This year we are playing with Graziani Pastel, Cinnimon Pastel, Mojave, and a Genetic dark morph that is also a Co-dom reduced morph that was proven by Ian G. as our little dinking project. I don't see any $1000 dollar morphs in our list, but I see enough that those who want to try us out will have some options. You have to start slow and build up or you will end up playing the bubble game we are all to familiar with.

I have dealt with smaller breeders, big breeders, and brokers. When no issues arise all is good regardless.

Now I have had issues with one snake from a smaller breeder and they were pretty much calling me and E-mailing me asking what they could do to fix the problem. I would buy from them again, even though the only snake I ever got from them was sick, if they had something I wanted I would buy with the confidence that if things are not right it will be made right. Also additional circumstances occured that were out of this breeders hands, but we will not get into a Fed-ex rant here. This breeder knows who they are and I still say thanks for the big girl as she is doing great now! :gj:

I also bought 3 snakes from a large main stream breeder. 1 of the three is doing very well. The other two have eye issues that make them look like they are always getting ready to shed cause the eyes are cloudy. We have taken them to 3 different vets and all of them have come up with the same conclusion and method of fixing it which is to stick a needle in their eye and try to suck the material out. The only problem is it could cause full blindness if it is not done exactly correctly. We contacted the breeder about two months after we got them concerning this cause at first we just thought they were going into shed and did not get alarmed until a month later when things were not clearing up. They said they would send us replacements once they had some. They really have not answered E-mails and trying to call them is kinda like a yea we will once we get the right het replacements. Well we have now moved and our phone number and E-mail address has changed so I know nothing is going to happen since we are already 4 months later. Now this is a major breeder and if I started throwing out names I would get crucified with as big as their name is. This is why anymore I actually feel more confortable with the mid size and small breeders with histories than the big ones. I now have the feeling the big breeders feel they can do whatever they want cause they know nobody can touch them becouse they have their following that will shield them.

Well that is just my take on the whole reputation building idea. Probably rambled way to much, but when I think about it, it just "T's" me off.

I am working on getting a breeding project going. When i sell my snakes I will sell them for what they are worth if it takes me a year to sell them I will sell quality snakes at a reasonable price. I don't think people should sell them self short just because they aren't a big name brand.