central nerve problem

hello.
I am new.
My phyton has some kind of disease, he was on enroxill injections for a week but not much better changes.

he is unable to roll over from his back, he goes backwards, when he goes forward his head is turned 180 degrees- back...

it could not be IBD, because I am from Slovenia (Europe) where we have no IBD. snake is from Slovenia- home breed.

can anyone have a clue what it could be?

there on you tube is film of him:tears::tears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqorD7yh6p0

please, help me, because here in Slovenia nobody knows!

teja

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Originally Posted by Teja

it could not be IBD, because I am from Slovenia (Europe) where we have no IBD. snake is from Slovenia- home breed.

can anyone have a clue what it could be?

there on you tube is film of him:tears::tears:



please, help me, because here in Slovenia nobody knows!

teja

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IBD is a contagious disease, and frankly there are no guarantees that it isn't IBD, that's the sad part of IBD.

I'm sorry, I can't see the video at work, so I can't see what's happening.

How long have you had him and how long has he been showing these neurological signs?

I'm curious also.. When did this start? It looks like the muscles on that side of the neck are contracted for some reason. It could be degenerative, could be neurological..

Has he come into contact with anything out of the ordinary? Had he been feeding properly/regularly? Was he normal when hatched?

can you see the pictures at least?

http://www.moj-album.com/album/12454819/

I got him 10 days before he started show this signs.
he is more than one week like this.
tomorow we will take just one little spot of blood.

he is 9 mounths old.

i am so despered...

thank you

he ate one week after I got him. than, after few days- this.
he ate normally.
he didn't vomit or something.

Hmmmm could be a injury causing it dislocated spine orsomething.. I'm jsut grabing at straws

his head is not allways turned on the same side.

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Originally Posted by Teja

his head is not allways turned on the same side.

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Have you attempted to feed him since this happened? Also, where do you get his food from?

no, he was on antibiotics so i didnt feed him.
the snake is from good breeder from SLO and also the mice

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Originally Posted by Teja

no, he was on antibiotics so i didnt feed him.
the snake is from good breeder from SLO and also the mice

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Your best bet is a vet visit to get some X-rays and see whats going on

What breeder did you get him from? Have you contacted them to see if any of their other snakes are showing symptoms? Did you get the snake at a reptile expo?

Where did the rodents come from that you fed him? How old? Live or frozen?

If he had dislocated a vertebrae then he would be paralyzed from that area down. He wouldn't be able to breathe.

Boas from US collections are able to be shipped over to Europe, so it's possible(just covering bases) that an IBD carrier infected him if you got the snake at an expo.

He may have been exposed to another type of virus or more resistant strain of bacteria. It could also be poisoning, maybe from what he ate.

Whatever he has, if he cannot hydrate himself(drink), then he's not going to do well. Your vet may want to do a blood culture just in case. Keeping him hydrated is very important right now.

could it have to do with the substrate i know some woods will cause neurological problems

yes, maybe x rays too. tomorow will take a very litle sample of blood.

nobody here doesn't have a clue. if is not trauma, if is not bacterial infection, if is not spine dislocation, what could be... don't know.

i can't even see him like that anymore.

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Originally Posted by Monty

could it have to do with the substrate i know some woods will cause neurological problems

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which woods exactly?

cedar and pine are bad for snakes...
what type is he on?

was the mouse live? and have you looked in his mouth yet?

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

What breeder did you get him from? Have you contacted them to see if any of their other snakes are showing symptoms? Did you get the snake at a reptile expo?

Where did the rodents come from that you fed him? How old? Live or frozen?

If he had dislocated a vertebrae then he would be paralyzed from that area down. He wouldn't be able to breathe.

Boas from US collections are able to be shipped over to Europe, so it's possible(just covering bases) that an IBD carrier infected him if you got the snake at an expo.

He may have been exposed to another type of virus or more resistant strain of bacteria. It could also be poisoning, maybe from what he ate.

Whatever he has, if he cannot hydrate himself(drink), then he's not going to do well. Your vet may want to do a blood culture just in case. Keeping him hydrated is very important right now.

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breeder from Slovenija, everybody are satesfied with it. other snakes of it are not ill, that what it was sayed.

what is reptile expo? who exports reptiles, so they can be ill?

his food came from the breeder also, frozen. they are very little mice with a hair.

how can I hidrate him? but he goes to water too.

thank you for your answers very much

I can't add any guesses that haven't already been offered.

It looks horrible from the video though. I hope you are able to get the problem identified soon!

mouse was not alive. he has been used to dead mice.

his substrat is some kind like this; (you should be able to see the image
http://www.mrpet.si/images/plazilci/...rind_small.jpg

it is not cedar or pine.

sorry, but have you NEVER seen something like this?
because here nobody saw something like this before. so I guess mayby around the world:) who already saw such behaviour.

well, the only thing that comes close [but not even 1% as severe] is when my JCP female missed her rat and got a mouthfull of bedding, she was trying to get it out of her mouth and kept twisting her head like that... but again, it wasnt as bad as that...

have you had a chance to get her mouth open? to be sure nothing is caught in there?

Unfortunately it seems like your snake has some sort of neurological disorder. This can be caused by a number of things such as disease but more commonly environmental factors such as over-heating, dehydration, injury, and chemical agents.

Quite often it is not treatable and ultimately the snake has to be euthanized. I would give it some time, though. Clean out the cage with a mild soap solution and rinse completely with water, then place clean hides and a water bowl on a paper towel substrate. Hopefully something will show up in the blood test that can be treated.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by ChicaPiton519

well, the only thing that comes close [but not even 1% as severe] is when my JCP female missed her rat and got a mouthfull of bedding, she was trying to get it out of her mouth and kept twisting her head like that... but again, it wasnt as bad as that...

have you had a chance to get her mouth open? to be sure nothing is caught in there?

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not an option. because we already check this. he is not choaking, it's neurological.
the trahea is ok, the breathing is ok.

in his poo was nothing wrong on analysis...

mmhmm, its strange that he is doing that on both sides tho... that is what you said correct?

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Originally Posted by ChicaPiton519

mmhmm, its strange that he is doing that on both sides tho... that is what you said correct?

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actually, on the right side is more often. strainge is that snake is not all the time like this. few hours may seem totally normal.

if he dies:tears:, i would put hid brain on analysis...
this his disorder is insaine:tears:

This may not be financially feasible, and it may not be as useful anyway. Have they checked him for a possible brain/spinal tumor?

I know Adam had a ball python die that had tumors everywhere..and showed no symptoms...

Regardless, I guess I would treat this as if it were IBD just to be safe.

Unfortunately it may be better to euthanize the snake in the long run, but I would keep trying to find out what happened first.

I know somebody else who had a boa that was exposed to a high dose of pesticide and started showing IBD like symptoms. The boa ended up having several neurological problems (from the pesticide) and had to be put down after about a year after the incident.

A reptile expo or reptile exposition is basically a reptile show.

Hi,

If I remember correctly there are also some parasites that cause neurological symptoms.

Also does this breeder produce spiders? Is it possible this is a spider sibling with bad spinning?

But if you had it 9 days with no symptoms then rapid onset I'd be tempted to look at overheating first or chemical/food related poisoning. :(


dr del

on the blood test there was no sign of IBD. but this is not 100%.

he was not able to get into touch with pesticide or cleaning products.

dr. del,
the breeder does not have spiders. I have it, but they are healthy.
what do you mean with ''overheating''? I am sorry but my first language is not English;)

My vet said that he need antibiotics again.
Now I am giving him antibiotics and water from the ''tube''.
I'm so scared that he may die of stress :-x

thanks for your answers

Hi Teja,


I have read that exposure to temperatures over 100f for a few hours can cause these symptoms. By that I mean nowhere he could get away from those temperatures.

I did not mean that he caught anything from the spiders it is just that the spider morph is associated with a neurological condition known as "spinning".

This has also been seen in other animals so I wondered if it could simply be that - but the vet is the one who has examined the animal and there are plenty of examples listed of it being a bacterial or viral problem as well.

Can you think of anything you were doing / changing just before this started?

I hope he pulls through for you.


dr del

OMG... Can that thing even eat? I'm sorry but that's just terrible. I hope you have it euthanized very soon if there aren't any significant changes.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Can you think of anything you were doing / changing just before this started?

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not really.
I got him on monday. I took him his first mouse on monday. Than next wednsday unexpected this behaviour. Trough the night.


p.s. I can't find anything about that ''spinning'' on the web.:weirdface

darkangel,
no unfortunatly he can't even eat.
My vet said that we will feed him.
I am very sad because I have no optimism anymore, and I am also thinking about putting him down if it's not better.

is spinning the same like wobbler sindrome or are they different things?

beside, can anyone tell me, I bought this snake, I have had it for 11 days since he get this ''disorder''. What can I do if he dies or put him down?
Is there any posibility, that the breeder is responsible for this?

thank you all

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Originally Posted by Teja

not really.
I got him on monday. I took him his first mouse on monday. Than next wednsday unexpected this behaviour. Trough the night.


p.s. I can't find anything about that ''spinning'' on the web.:weirdface

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A spiderball python does little weird movements just because it is a spider ball python.
Maybe yours has brothers and sisters that are spider ball pythons and does the little movements too.

Hi,


And you are having no problems with the temps in his enclosure?

Yes it is the same as the wobble syndrome - if you search on here for "wobble" "spin" and "looping" you should find some threads.

I do have a video of one of the members snakes doing it but I have no clue how to put it on here in a watchable form. The spinning starts at around 45 seconds in.

Click me to download video. (you can also use right click - save target)

It is an flv file so you may need to find a player - I use this one.

If anyone knows how I could have it play in the site let me know. :oops:

It would depend on what was wrong with it as far as the breeder being responsable goes I think. Might be a good idea ot get a necropsy done if he doesn't make it.


dr del

i could have sworn that this also had the video in it as well.... but there are some pics of the spider...

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=spider+videos



good luck though.. i hope u dont have to put him down :(

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I have had it for 11 days

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Is there any posibility, that the breeder is responsible for this?

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I would've already been on the phone with the breeder tradin' that model in on a new one. If he is any kind of a decent person he should trade you out with a healthy snake.........

boafa,
oviesly, the breeder thinks it's my fault and she didn't say for the switch.
beside, this little phyton get very close to my heart. he's not like a thing but he's my live animal, I have already ''feelings'' for it;)

if he has paramyxovirus or something there is no help. if there is ''only'' encephalitis it's posible to get well.

I feed him with force today, it was on one time so sad and so happy...
he really wanted to eat but his neck was not ''working''.
when we passed the neck, the pyton push the mice all alone.

please, pray for my little one:tears:, I don't sleep and not even eat normally for almost 3 weeks...

teja

That is sooo sad!

Just some wild guesses....Is it possible that maybe he injured himself from falling from the logs? I don't see any hides, did you just take them out to film the poor guy? Is this something that could be brought on by stress for not having any hides?

I hope that you figure out what is wrong with him and it's curable. If not, I hope you do the right thing.

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beside, this little phyton get very close to my heart. he's not like a thing but he's my live animal, I have already ''feelings'' for it

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I understand....but what options do ya have. Let's see, let the poor snake live it's natural born life in this condition and hope for a miracle , or euthanize snake now and put it out of it's misery, or take snake to vet and spend thousands tryin' to find out what's wrong, only to have the snake possibly die anyway, or talk to the person you got the snake from and have them replace it. i know you have become emotionally attached to it, and your in an unfortunate situation but think of the snake.....no since in emotionally and financially bankrupting yourself over a fifty dollar snake.

if it were me i would be gettin' in touch with the breeder or the person you got him from and try to get another snake, or my money back. If they didn't work with me, I'd euthanize it, and instead of buying a snake from some home breeder who won't stand behind their animals, I'd find a reputable breeder and buy another. Not to sound callus but you've only ad him a couple of weeks, not like it's been a family pet for years...........

Whatever you decide, I wish you well, hope you can keep your costs to a minimum and your snake recovers 100%.

the breeder started to ignore me:mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by Teja

the breeder started to ignore me:mad::mad::mad:

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Might help to take the matter to www.faunaclassifieds.com and put up a thread about your situation. Someone else can explain.

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Originally Posted by Teja

the breeder started to ignore me:mad::mad::mad:

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You have clearly done everything you could for this animal I would be very unhappy with the breeder for ignoring you.

She had a good reputation? Maybe that should change. If she is not willing to help at all, I would also question whether she is telling the truth about the health of all her animals.

looks like classic OPMV or IBD symptoms... you have both in your country, regardless of what you may hear.
sorry to hear about it... these are both considered to be retrovirus and could have been contracted from a number of sources. OPMV has been overcome by adult animals after force feeding, but it's almost always fatal in juveniles.

huh...
what about aentabeba parazyt?
it's not good also. deadly disease...

but what if he has ''only'' brain encephalitis?

I will fill him with antibiotisc now till 28.6.
if no better...
I can only take some other samples with my vet than. like from internal organs. unfortunatelly with a lot of rizics:rofl:

I am so mad to the breeder! I can't believe!
sonya, yes the breeder has the best reputation in our country, that's why I can't believe!

I've already log in into faunaclasiifields.
And, yes me and my vet also think on OPMV.
Unfortunately he'll die in this case.

hm, I don't understand this;
''OPMV has been overcome by adult animals after force feeding, but it's almost always fatal in juveniles.''
what does it mean?

thank you
teja

what i meant is that many elapids and some pythons have been known to survive OPMV with continued force feeding... this keeps them from dying from anorexia, as they normally would. basically the neuro effects subside and the patient recovers. from what i've read it's all been healthy adults, rather than juvenilles. the bad news is that even if the side effects disappear and the snake recovers, it may still carry the virus and be transmittable.

Can't you show up at the breeder's place?? Ring on her doorbell until you get an answer, call until you speak to her. She cannot ignore you like this! You bought an animal from her thinking that it was healthy, and it isn't!

Something similar happened to me with a little bullmastiff puppy, in the end, she recovered from the illness she suffered from, but the breeder ended up paying for the treatment even though she would ignore us at first.

what do you think to use kortikosteroid on him?

It all depends how much is the shot?

Personally, I would not want to keep this snake alive just for the simple fact that it could possibly infect other boids. Plus if its euthanized you can test it for these serious retro viruses.

If you are doing this for scientific reasons go for it, unless its really expensive.

Corticosteroids are an anti-inflammatory. It is a different route of treating this animal. Maybe a good choice, but could be worth a shot (no pun intended).:P

I'm not a vet so dont take my word for all of this.

Cortisoids reduce swelling/inflamation, but they also suppress the immune system. If there is an active infection steroids can cause it to go wild.

As a last effort it may be something to try, but it does have risks.

Also, corticosteroids only last as long as your using them. So if this is a chronic thing the prognosis is grim. That's if it actually works. If it's any of the suspected viruses any treatment should be considered pointless and a source of infection outbreak. Corticosteroids don't treat these two viruses as far as I know.

If there was a way to tell for sure that it is swelling then great but I dont think that technology is readily available. CT scans and MRI's are expensive and even then trying to determine if swelling was present from those results would seem extremely difficult. What makes you think its encephalitis?

My litlle sweet regius passed away today...:(:(:(

Hi,


I'm sorry to hear that. :(

Are you having any more luck with the supplier?


dr del