inbreeding

Sadik the snake says, "Only you can prevent bad bloodlines"

If you really care about quality ball pythons, don't inbreed folks. Color isn't the only thing punnet squares are used for.

What is the point of this?

Do you even know what your talking about?

:confused:

Inbreeding snakes is sometimes the only way to prove out genetics in certain morphs.

It's just something general about ball pythons I wanted to say...

And I know it's the way a lot of people prove out colors whether it is the only way or not... that's why it concerns me. Colors aren't the only thing you could be proving out.. diseases come in recessive form too. It may not be a big deal now, but inbreeding usually only leads to bad things, so I'm just encouraging that you try not to.

And what personal experiences have you had with it to be able to back up your claim?

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

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OMG~ you're just kidding, right????? :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

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Snakes don't have the same complicated genetics as dogs, horses, humans, etc.

the line breeding of dogs (wolves) over many many years has led to great pets :gj:

There is a big different in inbreeding mammals and inbreeding/line breeding cold-blooded creatures.

I would assume if you make this kind of statement that you have bred ball Pythons? What were the outcomes? If you had problems on what scales were the problems and what were they? If not why make such a statement?

Should you add new blood in your colony when you can, yes but making a plea such as “don't inbreed folks” might be a bit extreme don’t you think?

PS: Not an attack just questions from an inquiring mind ;)

Yeah, I agree dogs are good pets. But cocker spaniels (the dog voted most popular sixteen years in a row) suffers from nearly every problem a dog can have (as a breed that is), because of so much inbreeding during their popularity.

I'm not trying to pull the wool over you guys' eyes, seriously.

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

Yeah, I agree dogs are good pets. But cocker spaniels (the dog voted most popular sixteen years in a row) suffers from nearly every problem a dog can have (as a breed that is), because of so much inbreeding during their popularity.

I'm not trying to pull the wool over you guys' eyes, seriously.

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That may be the case, but using such a broad statement in a case where you have no personal experience seems a bit...unnecessary.

Wow....I clicked on this thread thinking there was actually something important to be learned here.

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

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Your making associations between different species of animals who's genetic make up is as different as night and day. As reptiles are (Ball Pythons in particular) generally short traveled animals and have been for hundreds of thousands of years that same Biology class should have taught you that the animals would have evolved to compensate for the limited amount of genetic material available to an animal that travels very little and lives more than a few years.

Most breeders in the business will only breed one or maybe two generations back but two is a bit much. Where as in the wild the chances that an animal might breed with its offspring or kin is very high.

As for the recessive problems this should be examined in terms of generations. Say an animal is brought in the country in 1991 like the Pastel thats 17 generations of animals that were started from a sparse few imports. And let face it the idea that all those imports may have come from one or two animals is possible in fact likely.

As a breeder I am always looking for ways to branch out my blood lines for projects. but I am also no trying to breed great grand offspring back to the sire or dame.

Just my two cents

In my Opinon with limited knowlage in the ball python world (more experience with beardies). Anyway, im very opinionated on alot of stuff this one of it. So sorry for the long post, and maybe repeated ideas.

Anyway, I think proving out a trait is one thing, If done correctly, and not over done(generation after generation to get a non genetic trait to strengthen). If a person takes a unknown trait, and does a testcross, and maybe if nothing is shown sees if its recessive, and thats all, I dont have a problem at all. If the snake is healthy and does not have problems like wobble head, and other things like that, I wont argue there. Unhealthy animals arguably should not be sold.

But theres a big difference between a parent-baby cross to test a trait out, then someone buying a Albino, breeding to a normal, taking 2 100% hets and breeding them. This doesnt prove anything and in general weakens bloodlines and health of the animals in the long run. With new traits this is a necisarry evil or all we would have would be dominant/co-dominant morphs. And i know everyone loves there albinos and pieds ext.

Now with that, the average joe with the average animal should not inbreed. There is a decent amount of hands on knowlage to breeding, but proving out a trait also. And i dont think the average joe should embark in proving out a cool shade of a ball python.

With inbreeding though lets look at historical and current examples:

Royal family in England
Pharoahs of egypt

Pugs, many have there nose drilled because they cant breath due to the inbreeding to make that little pug face. Many small dogs have gland problems, and so on.

Now refuring to two examples from beardies, just because i have a decent base knowlage:
Translucent bearded dragons: Most animals with this trait took years to successfully raise to adulthood and be healthy. Overall at this point they are ok, but not as healthy or robust as the average dragon. Also different morphs have crazy names that are all the same, so you could breed a Sunburst dragon to a Citrus thinking they are unrelated, and learn that the Citrus is just a renamed Sunburst offspring and are related. But in BP's names are pretty standard thankfully.

Also look Adenovirus, This in general i beleive came to the epidemnic it is today in beardies do to weaker animals as a result of inbreeding. With that, I would hate to see something similar with any species of animal.

But in general, I think its done, it will continue to be done, but should not be done IMO unless its proving something, if its a shortcut to save an extra grand i would not buy from that person. If the person does not want to bring in new blood to produce a better chance at healthier animals, i wont support that. But basically with anything you need to look at the gray areas, and not at the black and white.

Black: Inbreeding is Horrible dont ever do it

White: Inbreeings fine, wheres the proof, ive done it, its no biggie

Gray: its all situational.

In my opinion you have to evaluate the overall health of the animal and the situation, You cant say its ok, you cant say its bad, Its all dependant on a few things:
Health:
How far inbreed:
Reason:
Gains:
Losses (non gains, downfalls):
Is it worth it:

But i dont think anyone should ever say one thing or the other. And i have a feeling many will say its fine, in general as a quick statement, But no one wants sick animals that have constant health problems, And if it continues unwarrented (just random inbreeding), CB bloodlines will be weaker, and there will be problems. So stick to proving out and thats it. Luckly we do have Imports to add new blood but you never know how long that will last. There is a point where it goes to far, as long as you dont cross that thin line, I dont think you will be persecuted.

/end rant
Ben

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Originally Posted by Ophiuchus

Wow....I clicked on this thread thinking there was actually something important to be learned here.

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haha that's exactly what i did...that was beat

I want the last 30 seconds of my day back.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

There is a big different in inbreeding mammals and inbreeding/line breeding cold-blooded creatures.

I would assume if you make this kind of statement that you have bred ball Pythons? What were the outcomes? If you had problems on what scales were the problems and what were they? If not why make such a statement?

Should you add new blood in your colony when you can, yes but making a plea such as “don't inbreed folks” might be a bit extreme don’t you think?

PS: Not an attack just questions from an inquiring mind ;)

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I haven't successfully bred ball pythons, yet. I am just a big genetics buff. DNA fascinates me. Plus, I'm not saying that snakes produced from inbreeding are going to be outrageously disformed or sickly, but it usually has bad side-affects for generations down the road

I can't tell you what you can and can't do. It's your choice whether you want to inbreed, I'm just spreading some awareness.

I can't find it now, but if I can dig it up, I'll post the link, but it was said once before here - that cornsnakes have been line bred for multiple generations, up to 10 I think - with no detrimental effects.

A biology class really doesn't make you an expert in reptilian genetics.

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

I'm just spreading some awareness.

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Spreading awareness is one thing being able to back it up (and we are talking Ball Pythons here) would be another! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

A biology class really doesn't make you an expert in reptilian genetics.

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And niether does a Biology degree!! LOL!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

(yes, I am laughing at myself....)

Better said Ben. longer said, but better. You are right it's not black and white.

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

Better said Ben. longer said, but better. You are right it's not black and white.

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And there you go... The End. :salute:

I am actually shocked at the blatant ignorance that this person is expressing. I own three ball pythons as well, I guess I am now an expert. Hell, I own 8 boas, so that means I'm a super expert in boas.

Not ignorance Patt its more like they had information on a subject and arrived at an educated hypothesis based on on the information they had.. its how we learn. :D

Public service announcement.

Don't eat potatoes.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Public service announcement.

Don't eat potatoes.

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Dang is there anything left I can do :8:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Not ignorance Patt its more like they had information on a subject and arrived at an educated hypothesis based on on the information they had.. its how we learn. :D

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True, but that same method also starts mass hysteria and little red bumps..........ok maybe the not the bumps :D:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

True, but that same method also starts mass hysteria and little red bumps..........ok maybe the not the bumps :D:D:D:D

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Thats not what causes those its plants with leaves of three or five that are used as TP.. :D

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

Public service announcement.

Don't eat potatoes.

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Don't eat yellow snow.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Don't eat yellow snow.

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I thought it was a snow cone.....:O:O:(:(:(:rage::rage::rage:

Found it!

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showp...50&postcount=2

Thanks Rabernet, That sums up what i was trying to say more clearly and in way fewer words.

Theres Always a wise word from adam on most subjects.

Thanks again,
Ben

Somewhere I ran across a really interesting article on "Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient", a measure of frequency of allozygous genes (not only homozygous, but same copy). One really interesting piece of information was that the worst possible inbreeding you can perform is parent to offspring, and that sib-sib trails significantly behind this, followed by half-sib pairings. Just something to keep in mind IF you are watching out for the genetic diversity.

JonV

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Originally Posted by Wordsmith

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

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You don't think animals inbreed in the wild? You're balls man, you're balls.

I changed the thread title..."public announcement" sounds like there's something important that needs to be known. You're just posting an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Royal family in England
Pharoahs of egypt

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Where you going somewhere with this?

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Originally Posted by nathanledet

I changed the thread title..."public announcement" sounds like there's something important that needs to be known. You're just posting an opinion.

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thanks... I only called it that because of the smokey the bear reference. It is just an opinion... bad writers habit... making opinions sound fact.

i took a cpr class.... that doesnt make me a cardiologist

someone boards the fail train frequently

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Originally Posted by Moriar

someone boards the fail train frequently

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www.shipmentoffail.com

:)

Nice!

Haha a biology class. As most people have already told you, inbreeding isn't as serious in reptiles as humans, because we are massively more complicated, just in the fact we are warm blooded.

Also whenever you are breeding any morph it is some form of inbreeding(unless from other W.C.s Pastels etc). Some morphs are specifically line bred for the purpose of creating better morphs. The people doing a lot of the cutting edge breeding are big animal people and if they saw a defect, I am almost POSITIVE they would discontinue it.

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

Where you going somewhere with this?

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What I believe Ben was saying was....

In Royal families (England and Egypt for example) would marry and have children within their family, in order to keep their blood line Royal/Pure.

I could be totally wrong but that is what I was thinking....Goes along with the whole inbreeding thing

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch Art

What I believe Ben was saying was....

In Royal families (England and Egypt for example) would marry and have children within their family, in order to keep their blood line Royal/Pure.

I could be totally wrong but that is what I was thinking....Goes along with the whole inbreeding thing

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Yeah, I figured that, I just thought there'd be an example to follow. All he really had to put instead would be...

Arkansas


lol
:salute:

WHY IS INBREEDING AND OUTCROSSING SO IMPORTANT?
I would like to write a little about lab rats if I may.

Everyone should know about certain strains of rats are mice are more than likely inbred, and will actually say inbred or outcrossed when looking up this information. The Sprague Dewley rats and many other lines are all inbred from an original group of animals many years ago for consistency in genotypes, making it easier to control any variables in research.

These rats have been inbred many times for specific genes, traits and also outcrossed genes that were undesireable in the line. The result, a very stable line of rats that all carry the same genes, same phenotypes, and also aid in a very stable median for researchers.

Do these animals resembling the disfigured humans from " The Hills have eyes"? Absolutely not! They look no different from out crossed rats, breed just like outbred rats, and have the same if not MORE pups and success in each litter.

Why? Because the detrimental simple recessive genes have been "bred out" of the line.



We will have an increasingly smaller number of ball python imports coming across the ocean every year.

Inbreeding does cause MANY genetic defects come out, but rarely does it CAUSE the mutations.
There are so many different reasons why these diseases surface, but we will use for our purposes a simple recessive trait of the fatty zucker rats.

Fatty zucker rats carry a recessive gene that causes diabetes and other failures in the brain. Rats that are inbred and selectively out bred can be succesfully freed of the horrible Zucker gene.

While this inbreeding is happening, (father to daughter) they may also find that this line of rats carry some other genetic disease, and with consequent generations, can find the root cause and successfully breed it out of the line.
(I know, poor example, but wanted to get the gist of it down)

Inbreeding is very important, not only to find the phenotype of a co-dom trait, but also to reveal any problems in a certain bloodline.

I for one think it is incredibly responsible to inbreed for the purpose of research and having undesirable traits be bred out.

As far as I know off hand, the only genetic defect from any morph was the spider wobble, and the cinnamon's duck bill.

This hasn't been described as an inherited disease that can be passed to a NON-morph animal of each respective gene, and is attributed greatly to the effects of the co-dom trait itself.


Sorry to ramble, but inbreeding is not as detrimental as many of you may think.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

As far as I know off hand, the only genetic defect from any morph was the spider wobble, and the cinnamon's duck bill.

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The Pearl (Super Woma) is a fatal combo.

Oh yea, thanks Heather! Forgot about that one, don't hear about it too often ;)

Caramels Kink..

and I think hint hint that I heard tell of a Peal that was made using another gene to strengthen it.

Well, you both are bringing up some very good points.

Pearl LETHAL can't really be "bred out" per se, because it is directly linked to the gene(s) that cause the phenotypical morph, I think.
You would have to just not breed womas.

But....
I think there are people who have had great success breeding animals with no wobble, no duckbill, and even less kinks per clutch.

A lot has to do with selectively breeding your animals for those traits you want the least.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazydude

Royal family in England
Pharoahs of egypt


Where you going somewhere with this?

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Sorry i had figured that most people do get that they had health problems, Maybe i wrongly assumed, Anyway, Many Pharoahs that have been found have defects that are recessive and assumed to be a result of inbreeding, Like the long narrow head of King Tut, a illness related to inbreeding is one theory of his death.

English royal family up until the past few centuries stayed in the family, along with some other groups of people, for keeping money in the family, and for political reasons. Most of these had health problems, shorter lifes, ext.

Thats what i meant when i said it, Just didnt elaborate because i thought it was common knowlage, My bad, sorry.

Littleindiangirl, I think in general, if done correctly it is ok, like your example, Another example to support you is domesticated cows. Look at cows in other countries ours are the only with black and white spots, and shaped like that, big fat ext. Most have protruding shoulders, skinny, weird looking and brown or black. these were selectivly inbreed to create the perfect milk cow. I dont know to much on that, but i dont beleive there are any drastic backfires from it.

But i dont beleive its necissary in anything, Mother-son, Sister-brother, that concerns me, Once its proven, OUTCROSS. Thats really all that can be done. I have heard of the 10 generation thing, like mentioned, but this may have been fine others not.

Think, Do you know anyone that tests for geneticly inherited diseases in any reptile? I dont mean things like adenovirus or IBD. More of things like wobble head ext. If a breeder has disease and mutation (detrimental mutation) free animals and inbreeds and no harm is done, Fine. But the average joe wont know what to look for, and will just take two animals, breed and sell. And that is similar to people flooding the market with low grade pastels ext. They are not needed, and do harm to the market, and morph. Where as inbreed animals that dont have a purpose flood the market with little genetic diversity, and possible health problems.

Think how often a kid, or guy, or lady goes into a petstore, they say reptiles are social, they get two, They grow up, low grade petstore animals that are from the same place, Usually same clutch or parents breed, The person wants to try hatching them. what do you get? No diversity and possible health problems.

Now there is always that line that should not be crossed, If we have ball pythons with seethrough skin, Or they start getting physical addaptations or mutations that are not related to patern or eye color. Like silkback bearded dragons, a perfect example of going to far.

Anyway, I dont think its needed, We want morphs as humans, but we can live without them. Now im not going to preach that we shouldnt have animals and specifically select what we want, if not gone to far its fine IMO. But if there is genetically inherited problems or problems do to relation of all animals, then it will go right back to the people inbreeding to create morphs.

Again, its the gray to look at, But in general, Inbreeding is not helpful in any form to genetic diversity. But does have use in creating our coveted morphs. Would you like it if over time all ball pythons were similar?

Ben

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Originally Posted by Crazydude

Again, its the gray to look at, But in general, Inbreeding is not helpful in any form to genetic diversity. But does have use in creating our coveted morphs. Would you like it if over time all ball pythons were similar?

Ben

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Maybe you missed the whole point. Inbreeding is not for genetic diversity, and most of our morphs are simple recessive, but mostly co-dom. Needing only one generation of mother son breeding to get the homozygous form.

Do you have any specific evidence of genetic mutations caused by inbreeding that you are referring to?

There is still a steady supply of new blood being imported, and most large breeders do indeed out cross, especially with the large number of co-dom morphs with only a normal female needed.

Most pet stores do not breed their own animals, are they are notoriously WC animals. So that theory is bust.