inbreeding

[LadyOhh]

Yeah, I agree dogs are good pets. But cocker spaniels (the dog voted most popular sixteen years in a row) suffers from nearly every problem a dog can have (as a breed that is), because of so much inbreeding during their popularity.

I'm not trying to pull the wool over you guys' eyes, seriously.

That may be the case, but using such a broad statement in a case where you have no personal experience seems a bit...unnecessary.

[Ophiuchus]

Wow....I clicked on this thread thinking there was actually something important to be learned here.

[Freakie_frog]

lol... I've taken a biology class. It's kind of just the way of things. Humans haven't been breeding ball pythons as long as things like dogs and horses, so we aren't seeing the consequences yet.

It's as simple as asking... do you think it's healthy for humans to inbreed?

Your making associations between different species of animals who's genetic make up is as different as night and day. As reptiles are (Ball Pythons in particular) generally short traveled animals and have been for hundreds of thousands of years that same Biology class should have taught you that the animals would have evolved to compensate for the limited amount of genetic material available to an animal that travels very little and lives more than a few years.

Most breeders in the business will only breed one or maybe two generations back but two is a bit much. Where as in the wild the chances that an animal might breed with its offspring or kin is very high.

As for the recessive problems this should be examined in terms of generations. Say an animal is brought in the country in 1991 like the Pastel thats 17 generations of animals that were started from a sparse few imports. And let face it the idea that all those imports may have come from one or two animals is possible in fact likely.

As a breeder I am always looking for ways to branch out my blood lines for projects. but I am also no trying to breed great grand offspring back to the sire or dame.

Just my two cents

[Crazydude]

In my Opinon with limited knowlage in the ball python world (more experience with beardies). Anyway, im very opinionated on alot of stuff this one of it. So sorry for the long post, and maybe repeated ideas.

Anyway, I think proving out a trait is one thing, If done correctly, and not over done(generation after generation to get a non genetic trait to strengthen). If a person takes a unknown trait, and does a testcross, and maybe if nothing is shown sees if its recessive, and thats all, I dont have a problem at all. If the snake is healthy and does not have problems like wobble head, and other things like that, I wont argue there. Unhealthy animals arguably should not be sold.

But theres a big difference between a parent-baby cross to test a trait out, then someone buying a Albino, breeding to a normal, taking 2 100% hets and breeding them. This doesnt prove anything and in general weakens bloodlines and health of the animals in the long run. With new traits this is a necisarry evil or all we would have would be dominant/co-dominant morphs. And i know everyone loves there albinos and pieds ext.

Now with that, the average joe with the average animal should not inbreed. There is a decent amount of hands on knowlage to breeding, but proving out a trait also. And i dont think the average joe should embark in proving out a cool shade of a ball python.

With inbreeding though lets look at historical and current examples:

Royal family in England
Pharoahs of egypt

Pugs, many have there nose drilled because they cant breath due to the inbreeding to make that little pug face. Many small dogs have gland problems, and so on.

Now refuring to two examples from beardies, just because i have a decent base knowlage:
Translucent bearded dragons: Most animals with this trait took years to successfully raise to adulthood and be healthy. Overall at this point they are ok, but not as healthy or robust as the average dragon. Also different morphs have crazy names that are all the same, so you could breed a Sunburst dragon to a Citrus thinking they are unrelated, and learn that the Citrus is just a renamed Sunburst offspring and are related. But in BP's names are pretty standard thankfully.

Also look Adenovirus, This in general i beleive came to the epidemnic it is today in beardies do to weaker animals as a result of inbreeding. With that, I would hate to see something similar with any species of animal.

But in general, I think its done, it will continue to be done, but should not be done IMO unless its proving something, if its a shortcut to save an extra grand i would not buy from that person. If the person does not want to bring in new blood to produce a better chance at healthier animals, i wont support that. But basically with anything you need to look at the gray areas, and not at the black and white.

Black: Inbreeding is Horrible dont ever do it

White: Inbreeings fine, wheres the proof, ive done it, its no biggie

Gray: its all situational.

In my opinion you have to evaluate the overall health of the animal and the situation, You cant say its ok, you cant say its bad, Its all dependant on a few things:
Health:
How far inbreed:
Reason:
Gains:
Losses (non gains, downfalls):
Is it worth it:

But i dont think anyone should ever say one thing or the other. And i have a feeling many will say its fine, in general as a quick statement, But no one wants sick animals that have constant health problems, And if it continues unwarrented (just random inbreeding), CB bloodlines will be weaker, and there will be problems. So stick to proving out and thats it. Luckly we do have Imports to add new blood but you never know how long that will last. There is a point where it goes to far, as long as you dont cross that thin line, I dont think you will be persecuted.

/end rant
Ben

[chrisguz4300]

Wow....I clicked on this thread thinking there was actually something important to be learned here.

haha that's exactly what i did...that was beat

[PythonWallace]

I want the last 30 seconds of my day back.

[Wordsmith]

There is a big different in inbreeding mammals and inbreeding/line breeding cold-blooded creatures.

I would assume if you make this kind of statement that you have bred ball Pythons? What were the outcomes? If you had problems on what scales were the problems and what were they? If not why make such a statement?

Should you add new blood in your colony when you can, yes but making a plea such as “don't inbreed folks” might be a bit extreme don’t you think?

PS: Not an attack just questions from an inquiring mind

I haven't successfully bred ball pythons, yet. I am just a big genetics buff. DNA fascinates me. Plus, I'm not saying that snakes produced from inbreeding are going to be outrageously disformed or sickly, but it usually has bad side-affects for generations down the road

I can't tell you what you can and can't do. It's your choice whether you want to inbreed, I'm just spreading some awareness.

[rabernet]

I can't find it now, but if I can dig it up, I'll post the link, but it was said once before here - that cornsnakes have been line bred for multiple generations, up to 10 I think - with no detrimental effects.

A biology class really doesn't make you an expert in reptilian genetics.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I'm just spreading some awareness.

Spreading awareness is one thing being able to back it up (and we are talking Ball Pythons here) would be another!

[LadyOhh]

A biology class really doesn't make you an expert in reptilian genetics.

And niether does a Biology degree!! LOL!!!

(yes, I am laughing at myself....)