More mud in the debate over WC Gravids

I found this troubling on a variety of levels.....

market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=571033

why is it troubling thats how u get fresh blood in the lines and you dont have a bunch of inbreeding going on and who knows like he said in the post its crazy to see what comes out of wc eggs wish i had the chance for something like the pics that he has up

Next time copy and paste the ad, or at least the parts you are talking about. It has already been removed and now we can't tell what you're talking about.

the thread was about a guy who got a bunch of gravid females and he got a completely cool looking woma spider looking thing out of an egg and a het red and a red out of another one. the one snake i would love to see in person. i think the guy who posted his last name was billingsly or something like that

I think this is the ad she is talking about. http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=571034

yea thats it i like the one snake he shows after the yellow bellies

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Originally Posted by Monty

yea thats it i like the one snake he shows after the yellow bellies

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Yea that one is sweet looking i wonder what it is :confused:

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thats how u get fresh blood in the lines and you dont have a bunch of inbreeding going on

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Hmm. How many bp's are currently in captive collections? So you're telling me that if bp imports were banned tomorrow, we'd be looking at severe inbreeding? Not likely. Look up minimum sustainable genetic resource or population size and I think you'll find that inbreeding is really only an issue for those who ignore it's basic tenet.

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its crazy to see what comes out of wc eggs wish i had the chance for something like the pics that he has up

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Yeah, but here's a part that bothers me. How many WC gravid imports would you be willing to go through to get that holy grail? What would you personally do with the females who 'didn't pan out' so to speak? Say 20. Say you had to go through 20 females to get one baby hatched that could be something. Say 1/4 of those females are never going to recover from the stress. So 15 females, right? I can see making room for 15 females or else taking the time and effort to get them clean and healthy before reselling them. But what if it wasn't twenty? What if it took 100 or a 1,000? Got room for 750 females (and burial space for the ones that didn't make it)? Got the time and inclination to do what is ethical for them? I find it to be a veritable Occam's Razor.

I'm not saying there isn't an ethic behind some people who choose to go this route. I just have to wonder if the bp market would really suffer if we imported over 50,000 bp's maybe every other year instead of every year? Or, if we took a good look at the stock that is already in captive collections and the multitude of possibilities that already exist in the alleles that are here, would it really hurt the market at all to wean itself off a bit, say by half?

Almost becomes a veritable catch-22, doesn't it?

On the assumption that the ad will eventually go down, here it is

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Past few weeks, you've seen quite a few ads for WC gravid female balls for sale.
Most wonder why people bother with them.
There is so much bad press on WC animals, including imported Ball Pythons.
Most of it is false. Completely false. People who have diffuclty with imports almost always comes down to husbandry.
They just don't take the time to sit them up correctly.
People usually buy Gravids for one of two reasons, First most want the experince with working with eggs, to gain knowledge before purchasing the more expensive pattern and color morphs. The second reason is, to see what comes out of the eggs that are laid!
Today, instead of showing you some pictures of gravid females I have for sale, I would like to show you some pictures of some of what I have gotten from WC gravid female clutches:

Het Red Axanthic and Red Axanthic:

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Some nice Yellow Bellies:

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Even a new morph:

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Each year, I get to select females that come in, and I always find some that I want to add to my breeding colony.
Here, for example are some WC females that I held onto.
They are still in my collection, feeding, thriving and are being bred this year to male morphs. I live what I preach.

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Once WC females are settled in, they do just as well as CB.
I truely enjoy working with the females that come into the country. I hope you will also.
I have a nice selection of females for sale.
Most are in the 2000 to 2500 range.
I'm asking $125 to $150. Larger females range in the $200 to $250 range.
I accept PayPal.
I can ship both Fed Ex and Delta.
I can do wholesale lots also, just ask.
If you have any questions, would like to see some pictures of some gravids, or just need general information, feel free to call or email.
(*contact info removed)

The season is winding down, and only about two more weeks before it is finished. So, if your on the fence.....

thanks for viewing my ad, and if you have any comments on my ad, please let me know..... thanks

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Im definitly not a fan of importing gravid females either...

I dont mind the CH thing so much because its atleast a semi renewable resource....htey go out collect these girls every year and turn them loose...and not too much of a hit to the local ecosystem....and I cant understand why the Exporters in africa would shoot themselves in the foot this way...this basically the only way alot of these folks earn money

and for alot of these big girls its a quick death sentence because there arent alot of ppl in this hobby that have the time,patience,experience or resources to acclimate these big animals

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Look up minimum sustainable genetic resource or population size and I think you'll find that inbreeding is really only an issue for those who ignore it's basic tenet.

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I did google on those terms. I admit I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but I couldn't find anything that gave me a clue of what number of animals of a species one would need to have. Do you have any idea what that number is?

I'm not arguing either side of the "WC Gravid" debate; I don't feel I know enough about it. I do agree that there are probably more than enough BPs in captivity to avoid inbreeding. I think California Condors got down to like 20 left in the entire world, and they seem to be doing ok. I'm asking more out of curiosity than anything.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

Hmm. How many bp's are currently in captive collections? So you're telling me that if bp imports were banned tomorrow, we'd be looking at severe inbreeding? Not likely. Look up minimum sustainable genetic resource or population size and I think you'll find that inbreeding is really only an issue for those who ignore it's basic tenet.



Yeah, but here's a part that bothers me. How many WC gravid imports would you be willing to go through to get that holy grail? What would you personally do with the females who 'didn't pan out' so to speak? Say 20. Say you had to go through 20 females to get one baby hatched that could be something. Say 1/4 of those females are never going to recover from the stress. So 15 females, right? I can see making room for 15 females or else taking the time and effort to get them clean and healthy before reselling them. But what if it wasn't twenty? What if it took 100 or a 1,000? Got room for 750 females (and burial space for the ones that didn't make it)? Got the time and inclination to do what is ethical for them? I find it to be a veritable Occam's Razor.

I'm not saying there isn't an ethic behind some people who choose to go this route. I just have to wonder if the bp market would really suffer if we imported over 50,000 bp's maybe every other year instead of every year? Or, if we took a good look at the stock that is already in captive collections and the multitude of possibilities that already exist in the alleles that are here, would it really hurt the market at all to wean itself off a bit, say by half?

Almost becomes a veritable catch-22, doesn't it?

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I think a lot of it is $$$. Yeah there are already so many morphs and so many combinations that haven't even been created with existing morphs. But whoever finds the "next big thing" can make a lot of money. I mean some new morphs go for over $50k; imagine if you discovered a new morph and got to name it and produce it and combine it with other genes etc.

I agree with you that there's so much that can be done with what we have, but I also see reasons for wanting to import. Now that being said, I think you raise some good points about what about all the "normals" that don't pan into anything. I'm sure there are some irresponsible people who probably just get rid of the animal ASAP without much regard for her health and what not. But so long as there is $$ to me made in the numbers, the search is always going to be on for the next big thing.

I wouldn't do it, but that's me.

Hey Casey: The population size varies pretty widely (depending on parts of a particular species life history, like how many offspring they produce in a given term and how much parental investment, etc) But in general it's between 150 individuals and 1500 individuals. In some cases (think cheetahs and condors) the population can dip lower but there is a 'luck' factor involved in reestablishing diversity. If you look at the cheetah for instance, if you test any 2 cheetahs alive today they are 99.9% match in their allozymes (which are proteins that code for allele diversity) They are nearly clones. You can do skin grafts and organ transplants between any of them with virtually no problems. However, should a virus or bacteria come along with the ability to infect and kill one cheetah, it then means that ALL cheetahs will die if exposed. Thus, the population is not really considered sustainable yet even though their numbers have rebounded from the bottleneck. It's going to take more time and luck for the group to regain diversity.


But I digress. I agree that money fuels the import trade, and there will continue to be the search for the next big thing, but there again, I think to myself (RDR Phantom). How many 'normals' are floating around that probably hold similar diverse gene expressions. I see people post pics of normals all the time and I find myself going 'I have a normal girl that looks exactly like that'. I personally think we have developed enough as an industry that if the big breeders chose to back off, say 25-50% from the WC, and focused on what was already in their collections, it would potentially make the BP market MORE sustainable in the long run. I think in the end it comes down to personal morality and your base ethic. Where imports necessary to kick off the bp market? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that at all. Are they still necessary (in the current numbers) to sustain the market? Personally, I'm not so sure about that.

Cheers,
Kat

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

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So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

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Originally Posted by janeothejungle

I personally think we have developed enough as an industry that if the big breeders chose to back off, say 25-50% from the WC, and focused on what was already in their collections, it would potentially make the BP market MORE sustainable in the long run. I think in the end it comes down to personal morality and your base ethic. Where imports necessary to kick off the bp market? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that at all. Are they still necessary (in the current numbers) to sustain the market? Personally, I'm not so sure about that.

Cheers,
Kat

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Thing is though, that the new morphs keep the market going. If we started working with only what we have now, prices would drop a lot and continue to drop as more and morphs and combos were available (don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who complains about dropping prices). So in order to keep prices up and some of the breeders going, they want to discover something new.

Now I completely agree that there's probably too much importing and some people too desperate looking to get lucky and find something new. My point is that so long as there's money to be made from it, the imports will keep coming in. And as more and more people get into the hobby and start producing more and more and prices of what we have now begin to drop, there will probably be even more of a hunt to find the next big thing.

The way I understood it, the Big guys get those calls about something wicked and new, and don't necessarily import huge amounts of Balls a year hoping for something awesome. I thought it was more of the middle people, hobbyists, that import the large amounts of BP's and hoping to get lucky.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

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I'm sorry my story was too complicated for you to understand it. Let me try again in another way that you will hopefully be able to understand.

There will be people where ball pythons come from who depend on selling ball pythons to feed their families. No pythons and the kids starve.

It's not about not caring about the snakes, as anyone not spoiling to make a fool of himself can see, but about economics.

If your choice is to see your kids starve or catch a bunch of snakes, what would you do? And before you answer remember this. You have no savings. Your farm, that used to feed your family is now dust. There is nowhere to go but the city where your kids will be, literally, living on handouts in the streets.

I hope I have simplified this sufficiently.

No matter what we think would be best, the guy with the hungry kids is going to catch and sell snakes until there are none left.

IF you feel so strongly about them, don't buy imports, don't do business with anyone who does, and denounce everyone who deal in them.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The way I understood it, the Big guys get those calls about something wicked and new, and don't necessarily import huge amounts of Balls a year hoping for something awesome. I thought it was more of the middle people, hobbyists, that import the large amounts of BP's and hoping to get lucky.

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This is true. They have standing orders for the odd and some even have deals worked with the exporters going back years and years to keep those oddballs out of the hands of the general public.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but ball pythons are protected by CITES. If the CITES authorities believed that ball pythons were being captured to extinction in the wild, and did not have sustainable populations, wouldn't they adjust the number of animals that were allowed to be exported?

I see what Wes is saying. The snakes are going to be collected and sold, whether it is to the American and European pet hobby or the Asian food market. From what I understand, Ghana is pretty good about keeping the natural population up, while Togo and Benin aren't very concerned about having the ball python trade as a sustainable resource. On the other hand, the snakes being collected are coming from a pretty small locality in all three countries, so even with stripping these areas dry there are still major untapped areas where BPs are abundant. I don't personally have a problem with people importing snakes for the pet trade. I'd like to see a new morph or two unveiled here every year for as long as possible, and I'd definitely rather see these snakes at a local reptile show than in a can of snake meat in Vietnam. I do find the idea of buying a couple of gravid females in an attempt to hit a morph lottery to be a waste of time and money, but to each his own.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

I see what Wes is saying. The snakes are going to be collected and sold, whether it is to the American and European pet hobby or the Asian food market. From what I understand, Ghana is pretty good about keeping the natural population up, while Togo and Benin aren't very concerned about having the ball python trade as a sustainable resource. On the other hand, the snakes being collected are coming from a pretty small locality in all three countries, so even with stripping these areas dry there are still major untapped areas where BPs are abundant. I don't personally have a problem with people importing snakes for the pet trade. I'd like to see a new morph or two unveiled here every year for as long as possible, and I'd definitely rather see these snakes at a local reptile show than in a can of snake meat in Vietnam. I do find the idea of buying a couple of gravid females in an attempt to hit a morph lottery to be a waste of time and money, but to each his own.

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I agree 100%.

Also to littleindianagirl's post. The odd ball snakes that are found are generally given up to major exporters and they contact major breeders in America(RDR, Nerd, BHB, etc). With WC gravid females average breeders have a chance at something new.

Thats the difference.

I think there are enough in captivity that they should stop importing.:taz:

There are a lot of aspects in this debate, but I believe that the large scale exporation of ADULT ball pythons needs to stop. I'm ok with the occasional adult morph coming in and think that ch numbers need to be seriously looked at with the health of the population in mind.

If you want to find a new morph, buying gravid WC females is about the WORST and LEAST EFFECTIVE way to do it.

You'll find 10x the number of potential morphs by going through a ch shipment.

Also, there are more than enough fresh ch blood coming in to diversify the captive population I don't even consider that a factor.

Justin

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

There are a lot of aspects in this debate, but I believe that the large scale exporation of ADULT ball pythons needs to stop. I'm ok with the occasional adult morph coming in and think that ch numbers need to be seriously looked at with the health of the population in mind.

If you want to find a new morph, buying gravid WC females is about the WORST and LEAST EFFECTIVE way to do it.

You'll find 10x the number of potential morphs by going through a ch shipment.

Justin

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You think CH shipments aren't picked through? I thought they were usually picked clean. I assume some will slip through the cracks, but very few.

I agree buying a Gravid female and having something different come out is like winning the lottery, but if it were I, I would take my chances with luck than hoping someone hasn't previously screwed me over.

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Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

You think CH shipments aren't picked through? I thought they were usually picked clean. I assume some will slip through the cracks, but very few.

I agree buying a Gravid female and having something different come out is like winning the lottery, but if it were I, I would take my chances with luck than hoping someone hasn't previously screwed me over.

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Of course they are picked through. Both in Africa and when they arrive here. Those special animals are available to purchase without making hundreds of WC adults pay the price.

Perhaps the problem is that every hobbiest would love to be the one importing and going through the shipments themselves. We can't all be that person. Including me! :)

Justin

I would love to be pulling them out of the termite mounds! :D

I'm not against importing, but it does need to be regulated and maintained.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

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joe, I was not being rude, no matter what you think. I was simply trying to write in a fashion that would allow you to assimilate the data I wished to impart with complete comprehension on your part. Since my first attempt was a failure, in your instance, I took another route.

Perhaps instead of finding fault with my presentation you should try looking at things from ANY other point of view than the one YOU have ASSumed is the only one with any validity.

I think there is good debate on either side - but numbers wise it doesn't appear that the exportation of balls is making much of a dent in the general wild populations - there are designated areas where trapping is permitted there are areas where it is not - according to the cities investigations there doesn't seem to be a big difference in the number of balls per acre between the two. Also put into place are the rules and regulations about releasing the percentage back into the wild to accommodate for what is being taken. Blah Blah Blah. Whether they keep true and accurate records is another argument.

My major problem is that these animals get over here - they are completely misrepresented and sold as ghosts, desert ghosts, axanthics, etc. when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Anyway - it's economics for a poor country - and if we didn't buy them as pets they would end up as food. :confuzd: If the wild populations die out - there are plenty of unwanted normals in the US we can send back for re population.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

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Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

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My math isn't the best but they've been importing WC gravids for how many decades and how many proven morphs have come from WC gravids? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

My math isn't the best but they've been importing WC gravids for how many decades and how many proven morphs have come from WC gravids? :rolleyes:

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My question is this. Do you have any proof that mothers look different when gravid as imports and that they are therefore having babies that look like things/morphs they are not? That they appear one way but are in fact actually something else, morph wise, entirely?

It seems that you are saying that gravid mothers look one way when imported and that their babies do as well.

IF this is not what you meant to say, what did you mean to say?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

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you've never heard of a ball python's genetics being misrepresented? i'm pretty sure the previous poster was using those examples to try to get his point across. whether those actual examples happend or not, examples like that happen all the time.

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Originally Posted by bigballs

you've never heard of a ball python's genetics being misrepresented? i'm pretty sure the previous poster was using those examples to try to get his point across. whether those actual examples happend or not, examples like that happen all the time.

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Why don't we let HER answer the question? ASSuming does what and to whom?

I'm just curious as to what SHE meant to say. It sure seemed she was talking scientific fact about snakes changing post egglaying and import. I simply have never heard of such a thing.

A lightening or darkening, sure. But a morph change? That one is new to me.

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

My major problem is that these animals get over here - they are completely misrepresented and sold as ghosts, desert ghosts, axanthics, etc. when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Anyway - it's economics for a poor country - and if we didn't buy them as pets they would end up as food. :confuzd: If the wild populations die out - there are plenty of unwanted normals in the US we can send back for re population.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

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Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying stress changes the coloring of the mother and the eggs? Sounds like PURE speculation, and a bit ridiculous.

From what I've seen most imports have a little bit of a different look to them, but thats because they are breeding out in the wild and the captive ones are being selectivly bred. Overall it leads to subtle differences.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Why don't we let HER answer the question? ASSuming does what and to whom?

I'm just curious as to what SHE meant to say. It sure seemed she was talking scientific fact about snakes changing post egglaying and import. I simply have never heard of such a thing.

A lightening or darkening, sure. But a morph change? That one is new to me.

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whoa... why don't i just stop posting and cancel my bp.net account right away. please members of the bp.net community forgive me for ever deciding to post in a thread!

a lightening or darkening can be misrepresented as a hypomelaninstic or hypermelanistic. remember this is just an example im using here. you and i may be able to tell the difference between a genetic trait and a misrepresentation but to the person that can't then the lighter or darker bp has just been successfully misrepresented as a morph that it is not.

now you see the actual genetics have not changed but the morph has due to misrepresentation. im glad i could teach you something new!

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

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That can be true, but I've never seen those kind of prices that you're talking about ($2k). That specific add said all of the gravid females are $125 - $250 for the largest girls. Even the "oddballs I've seen for sale have said things lie "oddball red Axanthic type" or whatever, but I don't remember seeing any of these for more than $600. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it happen, and it certainly isn't happening in the ad this thread is talking about.

I also don't think anyone would by a gravid wild caught female for anywhere near $2k without the snake looking like it was a really cool morph, but that person spending that kind of money would also know the risk that it isn't genetic. If it's advertised as WC, nobody can know for sure. Some people have spent $20,000 - $50,000 on a WC oddball hatchling that ended up proving out as normal. That's risk vs. the possibility of a huge reward.

I think BHB said he bought a snake for around $100,000 or some ungodly high number and never proved out. Most expensive normal he owns.

There are obvious things you need to watch out for, being they are WC.

The stress thing I'm not to sure about. The only scientific way to measure stress is through Cortisol content in blood and I can't find anything about it causeing anomalies. If you have information I'd like to see it so I can better understand it, hopefully its not just speculation.

Maybe Heather can help she work in labs testing stuff.

There is an idea going around about melanistic ball pythons that dont prove genetic. The emphasis being stressed that the conditions of the eggs during incubation were not at the optimal levels and the animal that hatched out of it was super dark. Two different breeders, almost same conditions, and they both got some dark balls. This is just pure speculation though, but something to think about, and can't readily throw out environmental stress as a factor in color and development.

I was going to quote some posts but WOW. is all I have to say about somethings said here.

Ok I will state my opinion.

1) If these adults were not shipped here I bet they would have been kept by said importer and the babies sold and picked through as all the others have been. They have their groups that lay and hatch and that is our farmed babies. The ones that has been said in this thread to be batter to go through. Them babis come from WC adults.

2) The bigger breeders or breeders that have been in it a long time do get dibs on the odd balls. 99% of the time one of them take the odd ball. But still that does not mean that a WC gravid female can not throw a dinker. This is what all morphs are untill proven.

3) if you support morphs then importing is a must.

4) Unless you know for a fact how these ball pythons are treated you can not say they are abused. I have personally seen Ron Billingsly's place. He keeps these snakes in great condition. And when they lay they are still taken care of. He gets 99% of them eating and treated. When I have a WC animal not eating I ask him. I think he has a secret power over noneaters lol.

I am not trying to fight. Just stating that all moprhs came from dinker balls that are WC.

all that is happening is the some of the gravids are being shippid over here instead of them sitting at the "farm" and then them laying and the farmers hatching the babies and picking through them.

What happens to all the adults? I can tell you Rons are taken care of while he has them. The other people I can not comment on. I have a dinker project from a WC gravid last year. The Ball Pythons all have silver eyes well half the clutch did. I had 9 eggs 9 hatched and 5 have the silver eyes. The female ate small rats after she laid. She was treated for internal parasites and that was that.

How many proven morphs came from WC gravid females. Ron got Red Axanthics last year. I honestly could not believe it.

Also Ivories have been hatched from WC gravid Females.

Not saying that saying that too many or too little have been imported. But they would be collected no matter what. The famrers know that the farmed babies will sell. No matter what. And they do not have to feed the Gravid females. They just have to sit and wait for eggs. Now them females are in the US. Do some die I bet you they do. DO some get kept and breed again. I bet they do.

It's been interesting reading this thread considering we have two of those adult female WC's in our collection.

One is absolutely confirmed as being a gravid imported adult female who did lay her clutch in the States, was traded off to another owner, and then came to us as a non-eating rescue. By all reports Danu either never ate or ate VERY sparingly during her year in captivity prior to coming into our hands. She was only 800 grams and skinny when we received her. After a lot of work and months of careful care she is now finally eating multiple ASF's once per week and gaining back her weight.

The other is a suspected import, perhaps gravid, we'll never know that part. We did confirm that somehow this adult female BP ended up in a nasty pet store in Michigan, was taken from there by a caring vet tech, treated for her internal and external parasite load, and a large open wound tended to. That wound on examination by more than one vet was determined to have likely come from either a snake hook or capture stick used too roughly. She never ate. She went to another owner, she never ate. When she came to us as a rescue she was down to 600 grams. I hope to never hold an adult female BP in my hands again that weighs only 600 grams...it's heartbreaking. Months of work, worry, well we are now 2 years into her rehabilitation and Saoirse's pretty much okay now. We've never solved the riddle of her winter fasting, we likely never will with this one so her weight gain is slow but steady.

All the talk of numbers and maybe you'll get a morph. I just wanted to put a "face" on those numbers for some of you. This is about a living, breathing creature that does deserve some sort of decent existance. I have no problem with Ungo and his family making a living from a renewable resource, I have no problem with controlled importation under CITES. My problem will always be with what happens to some of these females after that clutch is laid and maybe they just aren't worth the work anymore. :(

The abused animals are not becuase they are imported. They happen to all animals and morphs.

I will give a story.

I had a very very nice pair of Ghosts boas a little over a year ago. These snakes were awesome but not breedable yet and I offered them up for sale. They were about 4 foot a piece. The male could have bred being 2 years old but you know. But I sold this pair of snakes a year ago for 2400 dollars.

We contacted the people we sold them to. I wanted the female back. I asked how much they would sell her for. I was thinking 8 months of feeding she could be over 5 foot maybe a bit more. But nothing. They would not sell. Then a few months later We get a call. They wanted to trade us the female ghost we wanted for some snakes I had. Cool

I had a 5 foot 100% het Kahl Albino, A Orange Tail Hypo and a normal female. They wanted them all. i wanted this female that bad I said yes.

I drive to meet the guy. What I see I was in shock. I mean I felt sick to my stomach.

I open the bag to see the ghost with over 5 sheds on her head and SHE LOOKED SMALLER! My 06 Orange tail was 4 foot and the ghost was the same size(length) but thinner. I have pics of the ghost before they got it. She was AWESOME. But they let this animal go down hill. BAD. He still wanted to trade and I thought to myself WHAT. But I kept my hypo and traded him the het and the normal and said I would contact him.

The ghost died 4 hours later. NO CRAP! 4 HOURS! I was a little upset. I do nto get upset with much. I wanted my snakes back. I did end up getting them back that night. and i seen the rest of his collection. All looked ok but he would not let me in the house lol.

But that was a very very expensive snake. He abused. He said she never ate. but that snake did not know what refused meant. I mean she slammed food.

I could not believe that. I kicked myself in the butt for even trading and the thought of my other two snakes being in his care. But emotions got the better of me at the time and i wanted to save that ghost.

So it is not the importation. It is not the animals. It is just wrong people keeping. That deal almost made me stop selling. Really

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition -

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How is it that you know this? What source do you refer to for surety?

Quote:

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however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

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Again, where do you find this? How many have you seen that looked one way when imported and another after laying? 3, 6, 12, 100?

Quote:

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We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling.

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How do WE know this? I sure don't know this. I am curious as to what you are basing the fact that YOU know this on.

Quote:

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That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

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Finally, a fact.

I'm looking for the origins of your facts tasha? Did you just make this stuff up? Did someone tell you? Did you read it in a book or a website? Are you the victim of a cruel hoax?

Where did you get the facts you post?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gary Orner

The abused animals are not becuase they are imported. They happen to all animals and morphs.

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I'm well aware of abuse, Gary, we've other female snakes here with the scars to attest to their previous owner's mistakes and poor care.

The fact is though with some of these imported gravid females, there are going to be a certain percentage of people that aren't looking out for the snakes, they are looking for a shortcut. Shortcuts might be fine if those type of people cared much for the creatures themselves but I think we all know a few in this hobby/industry who really don't care all that much. So these females, at least some of them, get dumped and as with the two we ended up with, they aren't in great shape and need careful management.

It's one thing to abuse an animal because you are stupid or didn't bother to educate yourself or are just plain mean natured - that's awful and very sad. For me though, it's a different category of mean when you know how to manage them correctly and make the decision that certain snakes are just not worth the hassle once you've gotten the clutch.

Holy spit. The thread ran away without me. Just got home from the lab so give me a little time to review.........


Cheers,
Kat

Brimstone:

Quote:

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The only scientific way to measure stress is through Cortisol content in blood and I can't find anything about it causeing anomalies. If you have information I'd like to see it so I can better understand it, hopefully its not just speculation.

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Cortisol is primarily in mammals. In reptiles and amphibs the governing adrenal hormone is corticosterone.

wilomn: I'm leaving Ungo out of this. If you go down that road it leads to african politics and the resposibility of developed nations. A whole nother thread in and of itself.

Rather than play the whole "if it wasn't us importing them someone else would" game (which is a total cop-out defense common among teenagers). Lets focus on the mature issue, namely our decision as a community to consider our own impacts.

The idea that if you love morphs, you must support imports is no longer relevant. 5-10 years ago, yes absolutely. Again, take a good look at how many bp's are currently in the states and then stop and imagine how many independent alleles that is. I'm not talking about the million combinations still to be made from 'cookbook' morphs we already have discovered, I'm giving reference to the very real possibility that there are a great many 'normals' in captive collections that could probably yield some pretty interesting new phenotypes with a little time and patience.

The reality is, as long as people can justify it to themselves, WC gravid females will continue to be imported. I, personally, choose not to participate in that avenue. Do I want to see morphs dry up? Of course not, but I would like to see some focus on the resources we already possess.

For those who believe that imports drive the morphs that drive the industry, a question. Where does it stop? Think we are still going to be importing huge volumes of snakes in 10 years? in 25? 50? Would you consider the practice sustainable (again leaving out human rights and the economics of africa)?

Just a thought.

Cheers,
Kat

So are you only upset with Ball pythons being imported.

There are also morphs in the UK that are not in the states.

You do not want Gravids imported or all Ball Pythons?

Australia shut down their doors and their species in the states are hurting from it.

Is there enough here. Maybe but at the same time. there is always something new out there that is wanted.

The reason I brought up morphs and mports is. I see people say all the time we import Ball pythons that should stop but when you look at their collection it is full of morphs. And some fairly new morphs. Without the importing them morphs would not be here.