More mud in the debate over WC Gravids

[kc261]

Look up minimum sustainable genetic resource or population size and I think you'll find that inbreeding is really only an issue for those who ignore it's basic tenet.

I did google on those terms. I admit I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but I couldn't find anything that gave me a clue of what number of animals of a species one would need to have. Do you have any idea what that number is?

I'm not arguing either side of the "WC Gravid" debate; I don't feel I know enough about it. I do agree that there are probably more than enough BPs in captivity to avoid inbreeding. I think California Condors got down to like 20 left in the entire world, and they seem to be doing ok. I'm asking more out of curiosity than anything.

[Blue Apple Herps]

Hmm. How many bp's are currently in captive collections? So you're telling me that if bp imports were banned tomorrow, we'd be looking at severe inbreeding? Not likely. Look up minimum sustainable genetic resource or population size and I think you'll find that inbreeding is really only an issue for those who ignore it's basic tenet.



Yeah, but here's a part that bothers me. How many WC gravid imports would you be willing to go through to get that holy grail? What would you personally do with the females who 'didn't pan out' so to speak? Say 20. Say you had to go through 20 females to get one baby hatched that could be something. Say 1/4 of those females are never going to recover from the stress. So 15 females, right? I can see making room for 15 females or else taking the time and effort to get them clean and healthy before reselling them. But what if it wasn't twenty? What if it took 100 or a 1,000? Got room for 750 females (and burial space for the ones that didn't make it)? Got the time and inclination to do what is ethical for them? I find it to be a veritable Occam's Razor.

I'm not saying there isn't an ethic behind some people who choose to go this route. I just have to wonder if the bp market would really suffer if we imported over 50,000 bp's maybe every other year instead of every year? Or, if we took a good look at the stock that is already in captive collections and the multitude of possibilities that already exist in the alleles that are here, would it really hurt the market at all to wean itself off a bit, say by half?

Almost becomes a veritable catch-22, doesn't it?

I think a lot of it is $$$. Yeah there are already so many morphs and so many combinations that haven't even been created with existing morphs. But whoever finds the "next big thing" can make a lot of money. I mean some new morphs go for over $50k; imagine if you discovered a new morph and got to name it and produce it and combine it with other genes etc.

I agree with you that there's so much that can be done with what we have, but I also see reasons for wanting to import. Now that being said, I think you raise some good points about what about all the "normals" that don't pan into anything. I'm sure there are some irresponsible people who probably just get rid of the animal ASAP without much regard for her health and what not. But so long as there is $$ to me made in the numbers, the search is always going to be on for the next big thing.

[West Coast Jungle]

I wouldn't do it, but that's me.

[janeothejungle]

Hey Casey: The population size varies pretty widely (depending on parts of a particular species life history, like how many offspring they produce in a given term and how much parental investment, etc) But in general it's between 150 individuals and 1500 individuals. In some cases (think cheetahs and condors) the population can dip lower but there is a 'luck' factor involved in reestablishing diversity. If you look at the cheetah for instance, if you test any 2 cheetahs alive today they are 99.9% match in their allozymes (which are proteins that code for allele diversity) They are nearly clones. You can do skin grafts and organ transplants between any of them with virtually no problems. However, should a virus or bacteria come along with the ability to infect and kill one cheetah, it then means that ALL cheetahs will die if exposed. Thus, the population is not really considered sustainable yet even though their numbers have rebounded from the bottleneck. It's going to take more time and luck for the group to regain diversity.


But I digress. I agree that money fuels the import trade, and there will continue to be the search for the next big thing, but there again, I think to myself (RDR Phantom). How many 'normals' are floating around that probably hold similar diverse gene expressions. I see people post pics of normals all the time and I find myself going 'I have a normal girl that looks exactly like that'. I personally think we have developed enough as an industry that if the big breeders chose to back off, say 25-50% from the WC, and focused on what was already in their collections, it would potentially make the BP market MORE sustainable in the long run. I think in the end it comes down to personal morality and your base ethic. Where imports necessary to kick off the bp market? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that at all. Are they still necessary (in the current numbers) to sustain the market? Personally, I'm not so sure about that.

Cheers,
Kat

[wilomn]

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

[joepythons]

There's a side to this that I don't think has been considered in this thread.

Let's say you've got Ungo out there in Africa. He's poor, got 7 kids, 3 wives and no job. He used to be a farmer but he couldn't make a go of it what with weather and bandits and lazy wives.

However, he CAN make a decent living by putting his kids and wives to work catching baby ball pythons once the hatch and the adults when no babies are available. He can get more for one snake, maybe only a dollar and probably less, than he used to make in an entire week of work. Work which no matter what happens with the bally python import market he can no longer do.

Ungo likes to eat. He likes his wives fat and his children quiet. He likes it enough that he brings in snakes, not that he catches them himself he's a business man now and doesn't like getting dirty anymore, that his fat wives and quiet children have gone out and gotten even when there is no order for those snakes. In fact, he has set up little chicken wire cages to keep the snakes in until he has enough to make a trip to the city worth while.

If Ungo no longer sells snakes his wives get skinny and mean and his children cry and become annoyances instead of the money making joys he has so come to appreciate. Not only that, but if there are no snakes to sell, Ungo must either starve himself or find other work, work that would get his hands dirty and take all his time. Ungo does not want to do this.

Ungo has hundreds if not thousands of counterparts.

Until there are no more wild ball pythons there will be wild caught available.

Ungo will see to it.

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

[Blue Apple Herps]

I personally think we have developed enough as an industry that if the big breeders chose to back off, say 25-50% from the WC, and focused on what was already in their collections, it would potentially make the BP market MORE sustainable in the long run. I think in the end it comes down to personal morality and your base ethic. Where imports necessary to kick off the bp market? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that at all. Are they still necessary (in the current numbers) to sustain the market? Personally, I'm not so sure about that.

Cheers,
Kat

Thing is though, that the new morphs keep the market going. If we started working with only what we have now, prices would drop a lot and continue to drop as more and morphs and combos were available (don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who complains about dropping prices). So in order to keep prices up and some of the breeders going, they want to discover something new.

Now I completely agree that there's probably too much importing and some people too desperate looking to get lucky and find something new. My point is that so long as there's money to be made from it, the imports will keep coming in. And as more and more people get into the hobby and start producing more and more and prices of what we have now begin to drop, there will probably be even more of a hunt to find the next big thing.

[littleindiangirl]

The way I understood it, the Big guys get those calls about something wicked and new, and don't necessarily import huge amounts of Balls a year hoping for something awesome. I thought it was more of the middle people, hobbyists, that import the large amounts of BP's and hoping to get lucky.

[wilomn]

So in other words Wes who cares about the animals in the wild? If we all had this type of thought we will never have any wild animals left in the wild and thats not right at all.

I'm sorry my story was too complicated for you to understand it. Let me try again in another way that you will hopefully be able to understand.

There will be people where ball pythons come from who depend on selling ball pythons to feed their families. No pythons and the kids starve.

It's not about not caring about the snakes, as anyone not spoiling to make a fool of himself can see, but about economics.

If your choice is to see your kids starve or catch a bunch of snakes, what would you do? And before you answer remember this. You have no savings. Your farm, that used to feed your family is now dust. There is nowhere to go but the city where your kids will be, literally, living on handouts in the streets.

I hope I have simplified this sufficiently.

No matter what we think would be best, the guy with the hungry kids is going to catch and sell snakes until there are none left.

IF you feel so strongly about them, don't buy imports, don't do business with anyone who does, and denounce everyone who deal in them.

[wilomn]

The way I understood it, the Big guys get those calls about something wicked and new, and don't necessarily import huge amounts of Balls a year hoping for something awesome. I thought it was more of the middle people, hobbyists, that import the large amounts of BP's and hoping to get lucky.

This is true. They have standing orders for the odd and some even have deals worked with the exporters going back years and years to keep those oddballs out of the hands of the general public.