More mud in the debate over WC Gravids

[wilomn]

when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

[Tosha_Mc]

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

My math isn't the best but they've been importing WC gravids for how many decades and how many proven morphs have come from WC gravids?

[wilomn]

My math isn't the best but they've been importing WC gravids for how many decades and how many proven morphs have come from WC gravids?

My question is this. Do you have any proof that mothers look different when gravid as imports and that they are therefore having babies that look like things/morphs they are not? That they appear one way but are in fact actually something else, morph wise, entirely?

It seems that you are saying that gravid mothers look one way when imported and that their babies do as well.

IF this is not what you meant to say, what did you mean to say?

[bigballs]

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

you've never heard of a ball python's genetics being misrepresented? i'm pretty sure the previous poster was using those examples to try to get his point across. whether those actual examples happend or not, examples like that happen all the time.

[wilomn]

you've never heard of a ball python's genetics being misrepresented? i'm pretty sure the previous poster was using those examples to try to get his point across. whether those actual examples happend or not, examples like that happen all the time.

Why don't we let HER answer the question? ASSuming does what and to whom?

I'm just curious as to what SHE meant to say. It sure seemed she was talking scientific fact about snakes changing post egglaying and import. I simply have never heard of such a thing.

A lightening or darkening, sure. But a morph change? That one is new to me.

[Brimstone111888]

My major problem is that these animals get over here - they are completely misrepresented and sold as ghosts, desert ghosts, axanthics, etc. when their coloration is most likely due to being gravid - and then the "oddballs" that are hatched are almost as likely a result of stress on either mom or the egg and are not in fact genetic. How few of these oddballs actually prove out?

Anyway - it's economics for a poor country - and if we didn't buy them as pets they would end up as food. If the wild populations die out - there are plenty of unwanted normals in the US we can send back for re population.

Is this pure speculation and conjecture or do you have any facts to base this statement on? I've never heard it before.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying stress changes the coloring of the mother and the eggs? Sounds like PURE speculation, and a bit ridiculous.

From what I've seen most imports have a little bit of a different look to them, but thats because they are breeding out in the wild and the captive ones are being selectivly bred. Overall it leads to subtle differences.

[bigballs]

Why don't we let HER answer the question? ASSuming does what and to whom?

I'm just curious as to what SHE meant to say. It sure seemed she was talking scientific fact about snakes changing post egglaying and import. I simply have never heard of such a thing.

A lightening or darkening, sure. But a morph change? That one is new to me.

whoa... why don't i just stop posting and cancel my bp.net account right away. please members of the bp.net community forgive me for ever deciding to post in a thread!

a lightening or darkening can be misrepresented as a hypomelaninstic or hypermelanistic. remember this is just an example im using here. you and i may be able to tell the difference between a genetic trait and a misrepresentation but to the person that can't then the lighter or darker bp has just been successfully misrepresented as a morph that it is not.

now you see the actual genetics have not changed but the morph has due to misrepresentation. im glad i could teach you something new!

[Tosha_Mc]

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

[PythonWallace]

Let me rephrase because apparently some people are not understanding what I'd meant to get across.

We do know that stress can change a snakes color - we know that being gravid hormones, etc. can change a snakes color - we know that often times gravid females whether imported or cb change color to have an axanthic or ghostly appearance - but prior to or after laying their eggs return to normal - and this is not a genetic condition - however we see the ads in the classifieds that these wc females are these morphs - most likely they are not anything other than normal girls and will return to their normal looking colors after laying their eggs.

We also know that stress (in various forms) on the mother during her "pregnancy" and/or stress on the egg can cause anomalies in what would otherwise be a normal hatchling. That is to say - even tho these WC hatchlings, captive hatch hatchlings or even some oddball captive bred hatchlings look odd different etc. - they are really genetically just normals until proven otherwise.

Now with as many oddballs that we see - very few actually turn out to be genetic. It's just something to keep in mind and think about before ploping down $2K on a gravid "desert ghost".

That can be true, but I've never seen those kind of prices that you're talking about ($2k). That specific add said all of the gravid females are $125 - $250 for the largest girls. Even the "oddballs I've seen for sale have said things lie "oddball red Axanthic type" or whatever, but I don't remember seeing any of these for more than $600. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it happen, and it certainly isn't happening in the ad this thread is talking about.

[PythonWallace]

I also don't think anyone would by a gravid wild caught female for anywhere near $2k without the snake looking like it was a really cool morph, but that person spending that kind of money would also know the risk that it isn't genetic. If it's advertised as WC, nobody can know for sure. Some people have spent $20,000 - $50,000 on a WC oddball hatchling that ended up proving out as normal. That's risk vs. the possibility of a huge reward.