Are rack systems...cruel?

It's always been my philosophy to give the snake as much room as I can possibly give it. I don't really have evidence to back this up but feel it's the most natural thing to do. I was just wondering, obviously a lot of people have racks....but isn't that kind of mean to be enclosing an animal in such a small space?

I would say it all depends on what type of snake it is. With bps which I have racks are perfect because they are nocturnal and they are more comfortable in tight areas, and not to mention they live in rodent burrows and things of that nature in the wild.

It would be cruel if you had an adult BP locked in a tiny bin yes, however from what ive read they seem to like having close quarters to make them feel more secure. I think humans want to humanize everything and we need to remember they are reptiles and may not enjoy being on display in huge tanks... just my .02 ya know?

Some creatures prefer smaller areas. Ball pythons like to live in small enclosed spaces, and generally emerge only if they need to hunt rodents or look for water, or a mate. They tend to prefer being in the termite mounds, from all the videos in Africa that I've seen.
So in my opinion, they prefer smaller darker areas to live in, and a bright open huge tank might actually make them stressed out.
Animals aren't humans, and while *we* would prefer lots of space, and plenty of light, they probably don't.

I only have one snake, and I chose a large enclosure.
It's loaded with hides and things for security of course.

every night he comes out and stretches his full length and lounges around. sometimes he's draped over the fake plants, sometimes just flat on the substrate, sometimes draped through his warm-side water dish and over a half-log. he uses all four of his hides equally during the day.
Based on how he uses his whole enclosure, I'd say that the space, if furnished properly, is fully appreciated.
not to say that it's needed....

that's just my 2 cents as a noob :)

...Just dont let them see the "outside"...if they are cb then the inside of the bin is all they know :P ;)

Some tub are really big. I dont think its cruel.

Snakes like small, enclosed, dark spaces. I would rather have them in a rack than anything.

I think they're more comfortable in the racks and feel more secure. I have had some feeding problems when i kept them in large enclosures i think they get stressed easier.

Well, here's my :2cent::

Yes, ball pythons are most often found in small, dark, tight spaces such as burrows or termite mounds and because of this it is necessary to provide them with similar spaces in captivity to make them happy and secure.
However, this does not mean that the tight space need be their whole world. I personally do not agree that adult BPs should be kept in short tubs with just a water dish. Although I understand that people with many snakes must conserve space, and that tight spaces must be provided, there should also be room for them to move from place to place...opportunities for them to stretch out and explore even though they rarely use them. :)

I also give any animal I own as much space as I can keep clean and afford. If they are a shy, solitary animal, such as my BPs, then I make sure there are plenty of dark hidey holes and greenery to help them be comfortable, but I still offer them the space be it in a tank, tub, or large display cage.

To summarize: rack systems are not necessarily 'cruel', especially for a snake like the ball python, but they could be a bit bigger. :D

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Well, here's my :2cent::

Yes, ball pythons are most often found in small, dark, tight spaces such as burrows or termite mounds and because of this it is necessary to provide them with similar spaces in captivity to make them happy and secure.
However, this does not mean that the tight space need be their whole world. I personally do not agree that adult BPs should be kept in short tubs with just a water dish. Although I understand that people with many snakes must conserve space, and that tight spaces must be provided, there should also be room for them to move from place to place...opportunities for them to stretch out and explore even though they rarely use them. :)

I also give any animal I own as much space as I can keep clean and afford. If they are a shy, solitary animal, such as my BPs, then I make sure there are plenty of dark hidey holes and greenery to help them be comfortable, but I still offer them the space be it in a tank, tub, or large display cage.

To summarize: rack systems are not necessarily 'cruel', especially for a snake like the ball python, but they could be a bit bigger. :D

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I agree, although I still think there's a certain level of cruelty going on when we enclose animals in tiny rubbermaids for extended periods of time.

I notice my BP hides in its hiding places in the day, and at night comes out and slithers all around his enclosure. I really do not see how it is natural to have BPs in racks...I don't mean to offend anyone, but in an effort to make their world as natural as possible (I don't consider that to be humanizing), I believe space is goooood......I'd feel very guilty having a snake in a rack, personally.

I think the answer to this question lies in the snake itself. If I keep a snake in a snug tub in a rack system and the snake does not become ill, continues to feed, and even shows an interest to procreate, there's no reason for me to believe it is cruel to keep that snake that way.

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Originally Posted by Rapture

I think the answer to this question lies in the snake itself. If I keep a snake in a snug tub in a rack system and the snake does not become ill, continues to feed, and even shows an interest to procreate, there's no reason for me to believe it is cruel to keep that snake that way.

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This i totally agree with, at first i was keeping my snakes in glass style enclosures. I noticed they were always jumpy and shy even when i would get them out, and they chose not to explore much. I then switched over to a rack system, they adjusted just fine and actually seem to like it better. They do come out of hiding at night and check stuff out i have noticed but never act like they are trying to escape a cramped enclosure. This may also be that i let them out a couple times a week so they can explore and exercise if you will, and they let me know when they have had enough and want to go home. So they work great for me.

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Originally Posted by Argentra

Well, here's my :2cent::

Yes, ball pythons are most often found in small, dark, tight spaces such as burrows or termite mounds and because of this it is necessary to provide them with similar spaces in captivity to make them happy and secure.
However, this does not mean that the tight space need be their whole world. I personally do not agree that adult BPs should be kept in short tubs with just a water dish. Although I understand that people with many snakes must conserve space, and that tight spaces must be provided, there should also be room for them to move from place to place...opportunities for them to stretch out and explore even though they rarely use them. :)

I also give any animal I own as much space as I can keep clean and afford. If they are a shy, solitary animal, such as my BPs, then I make sure there are plenty of dark hidey holes and greenery to help them be comfortable, but I still offer them the space be it in a tank, tub, or large display cage.

To summarize: rack systems are not necessarily 'cruel', especially for a snake like the ball python, but they could be a bit bigger. :D

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I must say that I agree. Yes we may find bp's in burrows in the wild but this does not mean that this is where they spend most of their time, just where we find them most. When it comes to nature we have lots to learn, we have labeled animals extinct just to find them again sometime later, there are creatures that we have no idea even exist, animals we know exist and know nothing about, and animals we think we know everything about and end up knowing nothing about, there are even things that we call myths or urban legends that may or may not really exist (giant squid has been proven, big foot and the lock ness monster are still under debate) we have even claimed to know an animal inside and out just to be proven wrong later. No one can guarantee me that we know all there is to know about bp’s. Even if they did we could still find ourselves wrong later.

I provide my female bp with a tank that’s 48x18x19 (the male is still a baby and will get his 70 gal next yr for Christmas shhh don’t tell him) with plenty of space to roam and hide so if she were to just do what I’ve been told that they like to do then I just have 4ft of wasted tank, but I guess I luck out that mine loves to roam.

I guess all I’m really trying to say is we really don’t know how ever bp would live in the wild so why not give them the choice to live how they choose


Science is no exact science

I don't think rack systems are cruel either. One thing to think about is when a snake leaves its "den" what is it doing? Hunting. Seeking a mate. We as humans, keeping these animals in captivity remove the need to hunt, thus removing a lot of stress and potential harm from the animal's life. The reason an animal's territory is so large in the wild is because of it's prey, the density of the populations the animal hunts. The more spread out the prey the more spread out the territory. Where hunting is good and competion is low or non existent, the animal will stay until it gets the urge to reproduce.

This is not just snakes I am talking about, but a majority of predators. Think of it this way. Wolves roam in packs over large areas. We keep dogs in small fenced in yards or in apartments. If given proper nutrition, mental stimulation, health care, and exercise, then just because your dog lives in a 2 bedroom apartment doesn't mean it is miserable or that you are being cruel.

I have always been one to think that bigger was better. I get stuck on the word "require" in a lot of things I read. All the this and that don't "require" a lot of space. Well that doesn't mean it can't have lots of space, right? So far as I've seen and read it depends on the animal. I've seen BPs and RTBs etc in huge enclosures that did quite well. This is part of what started me thinking I was going to build huge enclosures for the BPs I want.

After more research it makes perfect sense that racks, tubs, and enclosures sized "just right" are used. It offers more security. One main thing with anybody that breeds any animal is that the babies produced must not be stressed, or stressed as little as possible. Doesn't matter the animal - stress is bad. Different things stress out different species, just so happens some snakes do best in tighter spaces, are more comfortable that way, preventing stress, thus helping to prevent illness.

Mind you I am not against offering the largest enclosure you can buy and think you want for your snakes, go right ahead if it is the best for your particular animal. But if your basis for wanting the largest you can find or the biggest you think is necessary is that snakes in the wild have so much more room than a tub or in racks... you will never be able to give your snakes enough room to even begin to compare with "the wild." Unless you are a millionaire and can build your snake it's own house.

That said, keeping a snake in an enclosure that is too small for it, I am against. But I am not against racks or tubs. Neither am I against big tanks if you have the means to heat and regulate it properly.

Bottom line: If the animal is healthy, eating well, no illnesses/parasites/injuries, then however you house it doesn't matter much.

I have been owning b/ps for only a few years. However during that time I have changed from a 55g aquairums to a tubs. I had several reasons for this and it all had to do with how healthy my snake was. In the large tank he very rarely came out of his hides. His feeding responces where poor. He would climb up his branches and fall off of them. So I decided to get him a tub (now mind you he was about 1000gs) I got him a 32q tub. His feeding responces have gone way up. He is not hurting himself by falling. He is IMHO healther. He is not as shy when handled either. So I think that no it is not cruel. Again this is just my opion and the only way I have to judge how "happy" my snake is how well he is feeding and his reactions to handling (oh and he is very interested in breeding).

I also think it can depend on the snake. In the "wild" a snake is thinking about 3 things. 1. not getting eaten, 2 eating, 3 breeding. I really don't think they spend a lot of time wishing they could have a bigger house, more room to roam and such.

As bad as this sounds what is "happines" to a snake? There is cruel, putting a snake in a obviously too small tub, not keeping cages clean and no fresh water and things like that. Then there is just basic needs to live (the smallest place to live, clean water, clean cage). You can go to the moon from there, however after you go to a certian point it is ALL for the owner NOT for the snake.

I don't think racks, if sized right, are cruel. The main thing I worry about is many times people who have racks, have racks because they have a lot of snakes. What really concerns me about it is whether or not they pay enough attention to the snakes individually. I do feel it's kinda mean to just mess with the snake for a few seconds for feeding and cleaning, and let it spend the rest of its life in a dark tank (although I'm sure many prefur it) Some snakes like interaction and need some stimulus, and if a person has too many snakes, there won't be enough time to take care of the needs of all the snakes, and still have time for some handling.

I'm not saying all people with rack systems do this, but I am sure there are some people out there that do.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

Yes we may find bp's in burrows in the wild but this does not mean that this is where they spend most of their time, just where we find them most.

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No comprende?....your saying that because the majority of BP's in the wild are collected in burrows it is by chance that they are always found there, not because they spend most of their time there but just mostly get caught there?...see I don't understand?

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Originally Posted by Elvyra's Keeper

I don't think racks, if sized right, are cruel.

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well said :)
I believe this also.

I do want to point out that people in prison, even in solitary confinement, continue to eat and will express their sexuality if given the chance. It's a function of survival and boredom. It's no indication of quality of life.

I do agree though that snake psychology (if you can even call it that) is not anything like human experience. We just don't know what they think or feel about their environment. Since we don't know for sure, then there's really no right or wrong way about this, asssuming the snake's environment is kept clean and their minimum health needs are met.

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Originally Posted by www.Dictionary.com

cru·el /ˈkruəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -er, -est. 1. willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.
2. enjoying the pain or distress of others: the cruel spectators of the gladiatorial contests.
3. causing or marked by great pain or distress: a cruel remark; a cruel affliction.
4. rigid; stern; strict; unrelentingly severe.

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I see the word "cruel" being thrown around, and based on that definition I have to say a resounding NO.

The fact that the animal eats, tolerates handling, and breeds is enough evidence to prove to me they are happy.

Snakes are not mammals. Snakes are not mammals. Snakes are not mammals.

Now snakes do not need human interaction or any interaction at all to thrive(besides the obvious copulation). Ball pythons spend most of their lives in burrows. What is a rack? A makeshift burrow.

Do some research on the species and you will maybe understand why it is not "cruel".

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

well said :)
I believe this also.

I do want to point out that people in prison, even in solitary confinement, continue to eat and will express their sexuality if given the chance. It's a function of survival and boredom. It's no indication of quality of life.

I do agree though that snake psychology (if you can even call it that) is not anything like human experience. We just don't know what they think or feel about their environment. Since we don't know for sure, then there's really no right or wrong way about this, asssuming the snake's environment is kept clean and their minimum health needs are met.

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I also see people keep making human to snake comparisons when we are not every remotely close.

Snakes don't eat if they are stressed. They are very vulnerable when they eat and if they are fearful they are not going to eat. Prisoners aren't scared for their life in their solitary confinement. Also eating does not put them in a vulnerable position.

Breeding. Females generally won't breed if conditions aren't right. They don't want to endanger themselves, as well as the offspring. IE lack of food, no water, insercure. Human sex drive and snake sex drive are completly unrelated.

The main thing to remember here is that there are many different ways to provide a safe environment that fits both the needs of the animal and the keeper. For some this may be a Viv for others it a vision cage while still others find it best to use racks.

Over the years of keeping these animals in captivity what we have learned has grown by leaps and bounds every day we find new info and answers to questions. There is nothing wrong with having new ideas and being willing to try different things as long as that doesn't put the health or quality of life of the animal or the keeper at risk.

To say that it is cruel may simply be an overstatement. After all 99.995% of all ball pythons living in a rack have a better life than 100% of all the Balls in the wild. I know that as keepers we want to allow our animals every possible thing our charges could want. But the fact of the matter is that when dealing with the number of animals that most breeders or small hobby breeders deal with we compromise. Wee offer a habitat that meets the animals requirements while giving us the housing space we need.

In the end racks aren't cruel, they may not be the preferred way some keepers wish to maintain their animals. Which is fine but no not cruel.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

No comprende?....your saying that because the majority of BP's in the wild are collected in burrows it is by chance that they are always found there, not because they spend most of their time there but just mostly get caught there?...see I don't understand?

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That's exactly my sentiments....

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Originally Posted by akaangela

I have been owning b/ps for only a few years. However during that time I have changed from a 55g aquairums to a tubs. I had several reasons for this and it all had to do with how healthy my snake was. In the large tank he very rarely came out of his hides. His feeding responces where poor. He would climb up his branches and fall off of them. So I decided to get him a tub (now mind you he was about 1000gs) I got him a 32q tub. His feeding responces have gone way up. He is not hurting himself by falling. He is IMHO healther. He is not as shy when handled either. So I think that no it is not cruel. Again this is just my opion and the only way I have to judge how "happy" my snake is how well he is feeding and his reactions to handling (oh and he is very interested in breeding).

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As someone else who has gone through both housing methods, I agree completely and may as well impart my own experiences as well - although I do apologize for the length. What would be cruel for me, would be to put my BP back in the larger PVC-Glass display tank and take her out of the tub. Now, I'm not saying that this would be the same for everyone - but I firmly believe that once you own a snake (or any other pet for that matter) you get to know them, their behaviours and personality and in order to provide them with what's best it is paramount that you can pick up on the small changes or nuances in their behaviour. You learn what makes them happy and healthy and what they prefer. In my experience - this is a tub.

The PVC Display was 3' x 20" x 18". Humidity easily maintained between 50 and 70%, hot side kept at a constant 90, ambient temps on warm side between 79 and 83. Plenty of greenery, 4 hides, two water bowls. Initially she seemed to be doing wonderfully once moved into the enclosure, she was eating great, thermoregulating fine, and not stressed out by handling. Over the course of about 1 1/2 - 2 months (total of about 2 months spent keeping her in it), with no husbandry changes, she slowly began to spend less time in her hide, constantly climbing on anything she could find to try and curl up at the top of the enclosure, then falling down and trying again - so more hides were included, and this happened less frequently, but I was still worried. She became less responsive to handling, subtly at first and then more and more so. Quickly over a 2 week period it got to the point where during handling she was not active, she would not explore unless it was to crawl into my shirt. Each week her feeding response was becoming less and less aggressive again, very slowly at first and then very pronounced over the last two feeds. Yes, some people might think this an admiral trait - I am not one of those people, I prefer 'kitty' to act like a snake - because that's what she is. Two feedings in a row, instead of striking at all she literally took the rat from the tongs like a puppy being trained to take a treat nicely. Slowly opening her mouth, clamping down, and gently pulling the rat away - it would then take her dragging the rat all over the enclosure for 20 minutes or so before she could find a place she felt comfortable enough to eat.

That was enough for me. She was stressed out - I was stressed out and worried - I had enough. The very next morning I got up and went out and bought a new tub large enough for her (27 quart) yet much smaller than the PVC enclosure. I spent the day preparing it with proper ventilation, and setting it up in the exact same place in the home as the PVC enclosure, made sure the temperature and humidity was stable (again, 90 warm side and between 79 and 83 cool side with humidity at a constant 50-70). And then put her in her new tub, one piece of greenery, one water bowl, and two hides at first. She promptly went to one hide and stayed put, explored a little each night, but mostly stayed in the one hide, if she wanted the hide somewhere else, she simply moved it around with her - so she now has one hide that she's converted to a mobile home even though she's already in this "small space" being her tub. Except to remove the vacant second hide I left her completely alone for a week. Her very first feeding within seconds she struck the rat so hard that she actually sent her hide flying to the other side of the tub and on it's side - Wow... She's acting like a snake again! Her handling sessions were business as usual again, she actively explored around the coffee table, would crawl over both Adam and I flicking her tongue constantly and not 'shrinking away' when one of us would touch her, or move her away from something we didn't want her near. When she was ready to go back to her tub about half an hour later she let us know by trying to find a new hide place.

Owning any pet, it takes time to get to know their personalities and when they are and are not happy. Putting her back in a large enclosure would be cruel - it would be a long slow process of subtle changes, but within a few months she'd end up going completely off food. I'm not going to do that to her. Everyone's snake may be different, however perhaps since tubs are always the recommended method of keeping, and if you pay attention to what everyone else uses there is an established "size range" the reason that all of these seasoned BP keepers are using tubs and rack systems is actually because it is what keeps these animals 'happiest' and the most healthy.

I'm sure there are people out there who have snakes who fare well in large enclosures, and I know it varies by species - my friend keeps his hog in the exact same type of PVC enclosure (we got them at the same time) and she thrives. But I will never use anything but a tub in the future.

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

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Originally Posted by flip9688

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

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Not to start an arguement, but how do you know your snake is "happy"? Does he slither around with a smile on his face? Did he tell you "I need lots of space to be happy!". You say snakes aren't happy in tubs, but how do you know they are happy? or even that they aren't happy in a huge enclosure? The only way to judge "happiness" in snakes is: eating, breeding, shedding. If your snake is doing these things, the snake is content. Why? Because they don't eat while stressed, breed while distressed, or they shed in a million pieces when stressed.



If you have never switched from a tank to a tub, they you really don't understand the differences in behavior.

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Originally Posted by flip9688

and I am sure a snake appreciates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

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I think you have a misconception for just how much room a tub offers a snake. My males are housed in a 32qt tub which is roughly 2' x 1.5' x 6" which is with in inches of the size foot print of a 29 gal viv minus the hight, and all of the have enough room for a hide water bowl and can still stretch out and move around. My big female adults are in 41qt tubs and they are 3' x 1.5' and even my biggest females can stretch out and move with great ability in one.

These tubs are not cramped for the animal they just don't offer the visual pop of a viv. But hey thats why there are options for us keepers so you can house your animals hoy you want and still offer the same things.

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Originally Posted by flip9688

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

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someone posted this earlier but if you do some research on the animals you are making assumptions about then you may be able to make better assumptions.

sure your snake might be happy and healthy because he has a big tank and you stmulate his brain but i can guarantee that my snakes are just as happy and healthy if not more being kept inside their appropriately sized tubs and being provided with minimal brain stimulus by me.

happy is a concept defined by us and when you apply that to an animal you have to ask youreself what are the reasons for doing so. i say my animals are happy because they eat, breed, have bright eyes and colours, shed with no problems and are not unusually nervous within their enclosures or being held in my hands.

racks are not cruel and big tanks are not wrong. if the proper conditions are being provided for your type of reptile, temperature, humidity, lighting and security(for example), then most likely he will be "happy" and healthy and live a long "happy" life even without the x-box and internet chat rooms for stimulation.

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Originally Posted by flip9688

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

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My snake told me she was *unhappy* in the large display viv... As I took far too many words to post above. Put her back in her tub, and she's back to acting like a snake almost immediately.... I'd say she told me she was happy again.

I don't have a ton of snakes, and she's in a tub. Why is she in a tub? Because she sure didn't like the extra room of the display Viv.

Also, if you take the time to do them so there are no scorch marks, get a nice clear container and take care of it.... Tubs don't look like hell. Just don't buy the cheapest ugliest one you can find and put zero effort into it.

Just an off topic:

You know why those Betta males are in small cups of water? Because they fight and will KILL each other if kept together in a huge naturalistic tank. It's only temporary housing, and they are fine. They live in very small puddles in rice paddies in Thailand and other asian countries. The majority of breeders I have seen keep theirs in small jars all lined up on walls. It's definitely not cruel..

My first Ball female, I kept in too big of a tub. It was too tall and didn't offer much protection to her. I switched her to a 41qt tub in a rack and now she shoots out of the tub on feeding day for her mice. She's also breeding every single time I've put her mate in with her, and developing nice-sized follicles. If she wasn't happy, she wouldn't do any of this and would just curl up in the corner and die..

I know..I just like picking a fight. lol. I'm actually getting tired of my tank and am thinking about getting a tub, but a big one. lol.

but, thanks for the passionate replies! :8:

Allow me to offer my two cents on the switch from tank to tub:

I moved my BP to a tub after the display cage I got for her wasn't working right and I had already disinfected her tank and given it over to my adult ghost corn snake. The tub I got her is about 26"x15"x10" - the largest amount of floor space I could give her given my space restraints. This tub is almost the same size as her old 20L tank, but I've noticed she just doesn't cruise as much as she used to. I know my girl enjoys her nightly jaunt around the enclosure because it's always slow and easy, not frantic.

Ok, I rambled a bit there. But the point I was attempting to make was this: Every snake is different, and the only way to really know what yours prefers is try different methods. I now know that my girl really prefers her space to roam, while my little rescue guy so far seems to prefer nice tight spaces (once he's out of QT, I'll be trying him in a snug tub to see if he prefers that over his 10gal tank).
Some snakes love the 'cramped' and 'bare' quarters of a rack tub and thrive in those conditions, where others really love space and decor to slither around on. It's all about that particular snake and the environment that they do best in.

Why on earth is it cruel to keep snakes in tubs/racks? I house mine in tubs, and each tub is a climate-controlled environment that gives the snake ample room to hide, stretch out, drink water, eat, mate, lay eggs, shed, hide in a warm spot, hide in a cooler spot, let out some urate, and poop.
Snakes are Not mammals. Mammalian pets require mental stimulation.. without it boredom and the associated neurotic behaviors develop. I hate generalizing, but I can't think of Any mammalian animal that this does not apply to. Horses, cats (although they would prefer sleeping much of the time, in many cases..) dogs.. rats.. cattle. They all need mental stimulation. Bad habits will result if they are not given this.. chewing in dogs.. weaving and cribbing in horses. Feather plucking in birds even. The fact that these animals react negatively when not given sufficient interaction with either human caretakers, members of their species or other compatible animals, or "toys" leads me to believe.. it is "cruel" to deprive them of such.
I have never seen a BP become neurotic or go off-feed because it was not handled regularly and was kept in a temperature-and-size-appropriate tub!
Now.. BPs are not mammals or birds. They are creatures that rely on instinct to survive. They are not animals that play, romp, fetch, beg, or nuzzle like mammalian pets will. They don't need us handling them.. in fact, I think that human handling and meddling with BPs, is actually negative, because it causes stress. Maybe some snakes seem to "like" being out and their owners think that they are having "fun.." But reality is, they are probably either petrified, too hot, too cold, or trying to get away and find a place that is either warmer, cooler, or safer in general than being exposed in our hands like a fish on a platter. Whenever I handle my snakes, they are always either trying to get into my shirt (where it's warm, lol..) trying to get away (my Spider is famous for that one) or balled up in a scared fashion.
So.. if keeping many BPs in tubs in racks is so bad.. someone should inform Ralph Davis.. among other big, successful breeders.. and many of our forum members that despite our/their snakes breeding, feeding, shedding and existing great, we are doing it wrong!
And.. if people are upset that tubs are not natural.. how natural are glass tanks! Maybe less synthetic in chemical makeup when compared to tubs.. :)

Normally I hate to argue, especially with opinions. But this time, I feel the need to speak on this one.

No, snakes are not mammals, and do not need the CONSTANT stimulation that other such creatures do... However, they do have brains and those brains deserve to be stimulated. Even the 'zombie mouse dance' with a FT food item is a form of stimulation. They don't need toys and playtime, no. But they do need something that makes them "feel alive" for lack of a better phrase.

Good example: Snakes in zoos. Yes, they are in captivity. And yes, the zoos have limited space for the exhibits. Back at the zoo I worked and trained at, the snake house was an old building (with renovation plans) with really small enclosures. But still, those enclosures have water, branches, leaves... things that give the snakes something to interact with. True, those enclosures were also displays, but the same thing existed in the back rooms and QT cages. There were still objects in the cages, to a lesser degree of course, that were intended to give stimulation to the animals.

Just because snakes don't do a quarter of the things other animals do, and don't need the same amounts of stimulation, does not mean that they shouldn't have anything.

Well everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. As long as the snakes are doing fine and the needed parameters are being met, I don't really mind how people keep them.
I don't like extra objects in my BP cages, for several reasons. One, these snakes are rather heavily-bodied and if they're climbing on things, they could fall and injure themselves. Tree pythons they are not. Now, take a snake like a tree boa. If someone deprived that snake of having ample air-space and climbing objects, that'd upset me. But tree snakes eat, breed, and spend most of their time in trees.. that is their natural niche in the environment, and they need that in captivity. Since BPs by nature are ground-dwelling burrow-inhabitants, this is what I simulate in my low tubs.

:) No problems there. I just meant doing things like adding greenery to give them things to move around and under. I don't put branches in anymore, except the occasional driftwood 'log' for texture stimulation.

My corns, on the other hand, all have climbing structures of some sort even in tubs because they enjoy a bit of height. :)

I would just like to add that it is my personal belief that an animal gets used to different atmospheres and environments that allow for varying tolerances for certain things. Such as display cages with lots of stuff and very open, or a nice snug tub. What an animal is used to helps determine it's comfort and health within that environment - change is what causes stress until the animal can acclimate, if it can/will. This goes for any animal no matter the species. From fish and reptiles to cats and dogs.

I don't hold anything against people using tubs or showy display cages - if the animals are healthy and well acclimated to the enclosure then I see nothing wrong with either way. Unless the animal recieves no stimulation or is poorly kept etc.

To add.. I do think that it must be within the basic limits for the general requirements and comfort level of the species. Such as not putting a hatchling BP in a 100gal with hardly any cover.

Cruel? Who knows? What i never understood is the people who buy a $1000 plus snake and put it in a 41qt tub:rofl:

Myself i use animal plastic T3's:gj:

You do know the definition of cruel right?

cru·el –adjective, -er, -est.
1. willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.
2. enjoying the pain or distress of others: the cruel spectators of the gladiatorial contests.
3. causing or marked by great pain or distress: a cruel remark; a cruel affliction.
4. rigid; stern; strict; unrelentingly severe.

I don't see how any of these apply to people who love their animals and do everything in their power to see that their animals thrive. :confuzd:

a snake will not know the difference between a 3'x2' area of plastic or a 3'x2' area of glass. what the snake is enclosed in is ultimately the preference of the snake's keeper.
people keep balls in rack tubs because they generally do much better in there than a 120 gal tank. balls hide all day, even the $5000 dollar pretty ones. let's face it, balls dont make the best display snakes. but if you have a $5000 snake, then youre going to want to make damn sure it lives so you may want to keep it in a tub for various reasons. sure a ball python can have a good life in a 100 gal tank if all the conditions are met but it is still going to hide all day and when it does come out at night, 90% of the tank volume will not be used.
if you really want to use a 100 gal tank to display a snake then why not go with a JCP or ETB. at least when your friends come over during daylight you can say "look at my snake sleeping on the branch in the open" instead of "well its daytime and the snake is sleeping somewhere in there".
in the end i know that my snakes are all healthy and happy the way i do things and i hope all yours are as well. i am totally against animal cruelty and i think keeping a snake inside a tank with a heat lamp or pad without a digital thermometer and hygrometer is cruel and keeping snakes in rack systems inside temperature controlled rooms with thermostats wired to flexwatt and uv bulbs on timers is not.
we all know that heat plays a major role on reptiles health and if you dont invest $5 on a digital thermometer then no matter how much room your animal has, you are knowingly causing pain or distress to your reptile. isnt that the definition of cruel??