Are rack systems...cruel?

[Brimstone111888]

well said
I believe this also.

I do want to point out that people in prison, even in solitary confinement, continue to eat and will express their sexuality if given the chance. It's a function of survival and boredom. It's no indication of quality of life.

I do agree though that snake psychology (if you can even call it that) is not anything like human experience. We just don't know what they think or feel about their environment. Since we don't know for sure, then there's really no right or wrong way about this, asssuming the snake's environment is kept clean and their minimum health needs are met.

I also see people keep making human to snake comparisons when we are not every remotely close.

Snakes don't eat if they are stressed. They are very vulnerable when they eat and if they are fearful they are not going to eat. Prisoners aren't scared for their life in their solitary confinement. Also eating does not put them in a vulnerable position.

Breeding. Females generally won't breed if conditions aren't right. They don't want to endanger themselves, as well as the offspring. IE lack of food, no water, insercure. Human sex drive and snake sex drive are completly unrelated.

[Freakie_frog]

The main thing to remember here is that there are many different ways to provide a safe environment that fits both the needs of the animal and the keeper. For some this may be a Viv for others it a vision cage while still others find it best to use racks.

Over the years of keeping these animals in captivity what we have learned has grown by leaps and bounds every day we find new info and answers to questions. There is nothing wrong with having new ideas and being willing to try different things as long as that doesn't put the health or quality of life of the animal or the keeper at risk.

To say that it is cruel may simply be an overstatement. After all 99.995% of all ball pythons living in a rack have a better life than 100% of all the Balls in the wild. I know that as keepers we want to allow our animals every possible thing our charges could want. But the fact of the matter is that when dealing with the number of animals that most breeders or small hobby breeders deal with we compromise. Wee offer a habitat that meets the animals requirements while giving us the housing space we need.

In the end racks aren't cruel, they may not be the preferred way some keepers wish to maintain their animals. Which is fine but no not cruel.

[GirDance]

No comprende?....your saying that because the majority of BP's in the wild are collected in burrows it is by chance that they are always found there, not because they spend most of their time there but just mostly get caught there?...see I don't understand?

That's exactly my sentiments....

I have been owning b/ps for only a few years. However during that time I have changed from a 55g aquairums to a tubs. I had several reasons for this and it all had to do with how healthy my snake was. In the large tank he very rarely came out of his hides. His feeding responces where poor. He would climb up his branches and fall off of them. So I decided to get him a tub (now mind you he was about 1000gs) I got him a 32q tub. His feeding responces have gone way up. He is not hurting himself by falling. He is IMHO healther. He is not as shy when handled either. So I think that no it is not cruel. Again this is just my opion and the only way I have to judge how "happy" my snake is how well he is feeding and his reactions to handling (oh and he is very interested in breeding).

As someone else who has gone through both housing methods, I agree completely and may as well impart my own experiences as well - although I do apologize for the length. What would be cruel for me, would be to put my BP back in the larger PVC-Glass display tank and take her out of the tub. Now, I'm not saying that this would be the same for everyone - but I firmly believe that once you own a snake (or any other pet for that matter) you get to know them, their behaviours and personality and in order to provide them with what's best it is paramount that you can pick up on the small changes or nuances in their behaviour. You learn what makes them happy and healthy and what they prefer. In my experience - this is a tub.

The PVC Display was 3' x 20" x 18". Humidity easily maintained between 50 and 70%, hot side kept at a constant 90, ambient temps on warm side between 79 and 83. Plenty of greenery, 4 hides, two water bowls. Initially she seemed to be doing wonderfully once moved into the enclosure, she was eating great, thermoregulating fine, and not stressed out by handling. Over the course of about 1 1/2 - 2 months (total of about 2 months spent keeping her in it), with no husbandry changes, she slowly began to spend less time in her hide, constantly climbing on anything she could find to try and curl up at the top of the enclosure, then falling down and trying again - so more hides were included, and this happened less frequently, but I was still worried. She became less responsive to handling, subtly at first and then more and more so. Quickly over a 2 week period it got to the point where during handling she was not active, she would not explore unless it was to crawl into my shirt. Each week her feeding response was becoming less and less aggressive again, very slowly at first and then very pronounced over the last two feeds. Yes, some people might think this an admiral trait - I am not one of those people, I prefer 'kitty' to act like a snake - because that's what she is. Two feedings in a row, instead of striking at all she literally took the rat from the tongs like a puppy being trained to take a treat nicely. Slowly opening her mouth, clamping down, and gently pulling the rat away - it would then take her dragging the rat all over the enclosure for 20 minutes or so before she could find a place she felt comfortable enough to eat.

That was enough for me. She was stressed out - I was stressed out and worried - I had enough. The very next morning I got up and went out and bought a new tub large enough for her (27 quart) yet much smaller than the PVC enclosure. I spent the day preparing it with proper ventilation, and setting it up in the exact same place in the home as the PVC enclosure, made sure the temperature and humidity was stable (again, 90 warm side and between 79 and 83 cool side with humidity at a constant 50-70). And then put her in her new tub, one piece of greenery, one water bowl, and two hides at first. She promptly went to one hide and stayed put, explored a little each night, but mostly stayed in the one hide, if she wanted the hide somewhere else, she simply moved it around with her - so she now has one hide that she's converted to a mobile home even though she's already in this "small space" being her tub. Except to remove the vacant second hide I left her completely alone for a week. Her very first feeding within seconds she struck the rat so hard that she actually sent her hide flying to the other side of the tub and on it's side - Wow... She's acting like a snake again! Her handling sessions were business as usual again, she actively explored around the coffee table, would crawl over both Adam and I flicking her tongue constantly and not 'shrinking away' when one of us would touch her, or move her away from something we didn't want her near. When she was ready to go back to her tub about half an hour later she let us know by trying to find a new hide place.

Owning any pet, it takes time to get to know their personalities and when they are and are not happy. Putting her back in a large enclosure would be cruel - it would be a long slow process of subtle changes, but within a few months she'd end up going completely off food. I'm not going to do that to her. Everyone's snake may be different, however perhaps since tubs are always the recommended method of keeping, and if you pay attention to what everyone else uses there is an established "size range" the reason that all of these seasoned BP keepers are using tubs and rack systems is actually because it is what keeps these animals 'happiest' and the most healthy.

I'm sure there are people out there who have snakes who fare well in large enclosures, and I know it varies by species - my friend keeps his hog in the exact same type of PVC enclosure (we got them at the same time) and she thrives. But I will never use anything but a tub in the future.

[flip9688]

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

[Brimstone111888]

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

Not to start an arguement, but how do you know your snake is "happy"? Does he slither around with a smile on his face? Did he tell you "I need lots of space to be happy!". You say snakes aren't happy in tubs, but how do you know they are happy? or even that they aren't happy in a huge enclosure? The only way to judge "happiness" in snakes is: eating, breeding, shedding. If your snake is doing these things, the snake is content. Why? Because they don't eat while stressed, breed while distressed, or they shed in a million pieces when stressed.



If you have never switched from a tank to a tub, they you really don't understand the differences in behavior.

[Freakie_frog]

and I am sure a snake appreciates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

I think you have a misconception for just how much room a tub offers a snake. My males are housed in a 32qt tub which is roughly 2' x 1.5' x 6" which is with in inches of the size foot print of a 29 gal viv minus the hight, and all of the have enough room for a hide water bowl and can still stretch out and move around. My big female adults are in 41qt tubs and they are 3' x 1.5' and even my biggest females can stretch out and move with great ability in one.

These tubs are not cramped for the animal they just don't offer the visual pop of a viv. But hey thats why there are options for us keepers so you can house your animals hoy you want and still offer the same things.

[bigballs]

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

someone posted this earlier but if you do some research on the animals you are making assumptions about then you may be able to make better assumptions.

sure your snake might be happy and healthy because he has a big tank and you stmulate his brain but i can guarantee that my snakes are just as happy and healthy if not more being kept inside their appropriately sized tubs and being provided with minimal brain stimulus by me.

happy is a concept defined by us and when you apply that to an animal you have to ask youreself what are the reasons for doing so. i say my animals are happy because they eat, breed, have bright eyes and colours, shed with no problems and are not unusually nervous within their enclosures or being held in my hands.

racks are not cruel and big tanks are not wrong. if the proper conditions are being provided for your type of reptile, temperature, humidity, lighting and security(for example), then most likely he will be "happy" and healthy and live a long "happy" life even without the x-box and internet chat rooms for stimulation.

[GirDance]

I haven't been doing the whole snake thing long, but I do know one thing, a snake cannot tell you what he likes. I do think that a tub system is easier to maintain, but they sure do look like crap. most of the people I see with them just want something eazy b/c they have went to the extreme with numerous snakes. Personally I believe that every animal on earth needs some type of brain stimuli, and I am sure a snake apprecitates some room to explore and actually move around a bit. I don't see how keeping them in tupperware would make them happy.

Its kida like when you go to the pet store and see those chinese fighting fish in those little cups of water, yea they might do fine, but it just doesn't look like much fun.....

My snake lives in a tank with a few branches and stuff to explore, and he likes moving around.

My snake told me she was *unhappy* in the large display viv... As I took far too many words to post above. Put her back in her tub, and she's back to acting like a snake almost immediately.... I'd say she told me she was happy again.

I don't have a ton of snakes, and she's in a tub. Why is she in a tub? Because she sure didn't like the extra room of the display Viv.

Also, if you take the time to do them so there are no scorch marks, get a nice clear container and take care of it.... Tubs don't look like hell. Just don't buy the cheapest ugliest one you can find and put zero effort into it.

[SatanicIntention]

Just an off topic:

You know why those Betta males are in small cups of water? Because they fight and will KILL each other if kept together in a huge naturalistic tank. It's only temporary housing, and they are fine. They live in very small puddles in rice paddies in Thailand and other asian countries. The majority of breeders I have seen keep theirs in small jars all lined up on walls. It's definitely not cruel..

My first Ball female, I kept in too big of a tub. It was too tall and didn't offer much protection to her. I switched her to a 41qt tub in a rack and now she shoots out of the tub on feeding day for her mice. She's also breeding every single time I've put her mate in with her, and developing nice-sized follicles. If she wasn't happy, she wouldn't do any of this and would just curl up in the corner and die..

[flip9688]

I know..I just like picking a fight. lol. I'm actually getting tired of my tank and am thinking about getting a tub, but a big one. lol.

but, thanks for the passionate replies!