Are rack systems...cruel?

[visiontoreality]

Well, here's my :

Yes, ball pythons are most often found in small, dark, tight spaces such as burrows or termite mounds and because of this it is necessary to provide them with similar spaces in captivity to make them happy and secure.
However, this does not mean that the tight space need be their whole world. I personally do not agree that adult BPs should be kept in short tubs with just a water dish. Although I understand that people with many snakes must conserve space, and that tight spaces must be provided, there should also be room for them to move from place to place...opportunities for them to stretch out and explore even though they rarely use them.

I also give any animal I own as much space as I can keep clean and afford. If they are a shy, solitary animal, such as my BPs, then I make sure there are plenty of dark hidey holes and greenery to help them be comfortable, but I still offer them the space be it in a tank, tub, or large display cage.

To summarize: rack systems are not necessarily 'cruel', especially for a snake like the ball python, but they could be a bit bigger.

I agree, although I still think there's a certain level of cruelty going on when we enclose animals in tiny rubbermaids for extended periods of time.

I notice my BP hides in its hiding places in the day, and at night comes out and slithers all around his enclosure. I really do not see how it is natural to have BPs in racks...I don't mean to offend anyone, but in an effort to make their world as natural as possible (I don't consider that to be humanizing), I believe space is goooood......I'd feel very guilty having a snake in a rack, personally.

[Rapture]

I think the answer to this question lies in the snake itself. If I keep a snake in a snug tub in a rack system and the snake does not become ill, continues to feed, and even shows an interest to procreate, there's no reason for me to believe it is cruel to keep that snake that way.

[Sparky1]

I think the answer to this question lies in the snake itself. If I keep a snake in a snug tub in a rack system and the snake does not become ill, continues to feed, and even shows an interest to procreate, there's no reason for me to believe it is cruel to keep that snake that way.

This i totally agree with, at first i was keeping my snakes in glass style enclosures. I noticed they were always jumpy and shy even when i would get them out, and they chose not to explore much. I then switched over to a rack system, they adjusted just fine and actually seem to like it better. They do come out of hiding at night and check stuff out i have noticed but never act like they are trying to escape a cramped enclosure. This may also be that i let them out a couple times a week so they can explore and exercise if you will, and they let me know when they have had enough and want to go home. So they work great for me.

[771subliminal]

Well, here's my :

Yes, ball pythons are most often found in small, dark, tight spaces such as burrows or termite mounds and because of this it is necessary to provide them with similar spaces in captivity to make them happy and secure.
However, this does not mean that the tight space need be their whole world. I personally do not agree that adult BPs should be kept in short tubs with just a water dish. Although I understand that people with many snakes must conserve space, and that tight spaces must be provided, there should also be room for them to move from place to place...opportunities for them to stretch out and explore even though they rarely use them.

I also give any animal I own as much space as I can keep clean and afford. If they are a shy, solitary animal, such as my BPs, then I make sure there are plenty of dark hidey holes and greenery to help them be comfortable, but I still offer them the space be it in a tank, tub, or large display cage.

To summarize: rack systems are not necessarily 'cruel', especially for a snake like the ball python, but they could be a bit bigger.

I must say that I agree. Yes we may find bp's in burrows in the wild but this does not mean that this is where they spend most of their time, just where we find them most. When it comes to nature we have lots to learn, we have labeled animals extinct just to find them again sometime later, there are creatures that we have no idea even exist, animals we know exist and know nothing about, and animals we think we know everything about and end up knowing nothing about, there are even things that we call myths or urban legends that may or may not really exist (giant squid has been proven, big foot and the lock ness monster are still under debate) we have even claimed to know an animal inside and out just to be proven wrong later. No one can guarantee me that we know all there is to know about bp’s. Even if they did we could still find ourselves wrong later.

I provide my female bp with a tank that’s 48x18x19 (the male is still a baby and will get his 70 gal next yr for Christmas shhh don’t tell him) with plenty of space to roam and hide so if she were to just do what I’ve been told that they like to do then I just have 4ft of wasted tank, but I guess I luck out that mine loves to roam.

I guess all I’m really trying to say is we really don’t know how ever bp would live in the wild so why not give them the choice to live how they choose


Science is no exact science

[BulldogBalls]

I don't think rack systems are cruel either. One thing to think about is when a snake leaves its "den" what is it doing? Hunting. Seeking a mate. We as humans, keeping these animals in captivity remove the need to hunt, thus removing a lot of stress and potential harm from the animal's life. The reason an animal's territory is so large in the wild is because of it's prey, the density of the populations the animal hunts. The more spread out the prey the more spread out the territory. Where hunting is good and competion is low or non existent, the animal will stay until it gets the urge to reproduce.

This is not just snakes I am talking about, but a majority of predators. Think of it this way. Wolves roam in packs over large areas. We keep dogs in small fenced in yards or in apartments. If given proper nutrition, mental stimulation, health care, and exercise, then just because your dog lives in a 2 bedroom apartment doesn't mean it is miserable or that you are being cruel.

I have always been one to think that bigger was better. I get stuck on the word "require" in a lot of things I read. All the this and that don't "require" a lot of space. Well that doesn't mean it can't have lots of space, right? So far as I've seen and read it depends on the animal. I've seen BPs and RTBs etc in huge enclosures that did quite well. This is part of what started me thinking I was going to build huge enclosures for the BPs I want.

After more research it makes perfect sense that racks, tubs, and enclosures sized "just right" are used. It offers more security. One main thing with anybody that breeds any animal is that the babies produced must not be stressed, or stressed as little as possible. Doesn't matter the animal - stress is bad. Different things stress out different species, just so happens some snakes do best in tighter spaces, are more comfortable that way, preventing stress, thus helping to prevent illness.

Mind you I am not against offering the largest enclosure you can buy and think you want for your snakes, go right ahead if it is the best for your particular animal. But if your basis for wanting the largest you can find or the biggest you think is necessary is that snakes in the wild have so much more room than a tub or in racks... you will never be able to give your snakes enough room to even begin to compare with "the wild." Unless you are a millionaire and can build your snake it's own house.

That said, keeping a snake in an enclosure that is too small for it, I am against. But I am not against racks or tubs. Neither am I against big tanks if you have the means to heat and regulate it properly.

Bottom line: If the animal is healthy, eating well, no illnesses/parasites/injuries, then however you house it doesn't matter much.

[akaangela]

I have been owning b/ps for only a few years. However during that time I have changed from a 55g aquairums to a tubs. I had several reasons for this and it all had to do with how healthy my snake was. In the large tank he very rarely came out of his hides. His feeding responces where poor. He would climb up his branches and fall off of them. So I decided to get him a tub (now mind you he was about 1000gs) I got him a 32q tub. His feeding responces have gone way up. He is not hurting himself by falling. He is IMHO healther. He is not as shy when handled either. So I think that no it is not cruel. Again this is just my opion and the only way I have to judge how "happy" my snake is how well he is feeding and his reactions to handling (oh and he is very interested in breeding).

I also think it can depend on the snake. In the "wild" a snake is thinking about 3 things. 1. not getting eaten, 2 eating, 3 breeding. I really don't think they spend a lot of time wishing they could have a bigger house, more room to roam and such.

As bad as this sounds what is "happines" to a snake? There is cruel, putting a snake in a obviously too small tub, not keeping cages clean and no fresh water and things like that. Then there is just basic needs to live (the smallest place to live, clean water, clean cage). You can go to the moon from there, however after you go to a certian point it is ALL for the owner NOT for the snake.

[Elvyra's Keeper]

I don't think racks, if sized right, are cruel. The main thing I worry about is many times people who have racks, have racks because they have a lot of snakes. What really concerns me about it is whether or not they pay enough attention to the snakes individually. I do feel it's kinda mean to just mess with the snake for a few seconds for feeding and cleaning, and let it spend the rest of its life in a dark tank (although I'm sure many prefur it) Some snakes like interaction and need some stimulus, and if a person has too many snakes, there won't be enough time to take care of the needs of all the snakes, and still have time for some handling.

I'm not saying all people with rack systems do this, but I am sure there are some people out there that do.

[monk90222]

Yes we may find bp's in burrows in the wild but this does not mean that this is where they spend most of their time, just where we find them most.

No comprende?....your saying that because the majority of BP's in the wild are collected in burrows it is by chance that they are always found there, not because they spend most of their time there but just mostly get caught there?...see I don't understand?

[fishmommy]

I don't think racks, if sized right, are cruel.

well said
I believe this also.

I do want to point out that people in prison, even in solitary confinement, continue to eat and will express their sexuality if given the chance. It's a function of survival and boredom. It's no indication of quality of life.

I do agree though that snake psychology (if you can even call it that) is not anything like human experience. We just don't know what they think or feel about their environment. Since we don't know for sure, then there's really no right or wrong way about this, asssuming the snake's environment is kept clean and their minimum health needs are met.

[Brimstone111888]

cru·el /ˈkruəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kroo-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -er, -est. 1. willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others.
2. enjoying the pain or distress of others: the cruel spectators of the gladiatorial contests.
3. causing or marked by great pain or distress: a cruel remark; a cruel affliction.
4. rigid; stern; strict; unrelentingly severe.

I see the word "cruel" being thrown around, and based on that definition I have to say a resounding NO.

The fact that the animal eats, tolerates handling, and breeds is enough evidence to prove to me they are happy.

Snakes are not mammals. Snakes are not mammals. Snakes are not mammals.

Now snakes do not need human interaction or any interaction at all to thrive(besides the obvious copulation). Ball pythons spend most of their lives in burrows. What is a rack? A makeshift burrow.

Do some research on the species and you will maybe understand why it is not "cruel".