This sucks guys

Ugh, I am so defeated yet again. I got two new ball pythons at the March Tinley show after losing my pinstripe girl the week before Christmas. After losing her I vowed I didn't want another BP. But after a few weeks I decided to do a payment plan for pickup. I have been having difficulty getting them to feed. I finally got the female to eat when I offered live. But the male pied was so scared of the mice, even though the breeder was feeding them live. I tried all the tricks and tips along with feeding tips. He just seemed so stressed out. The passed week or so I noticed he was seemly pretty weak. Also had sort of a weird head tilt. (Not spider wobble or star gazing behavior). I have a bee morph, I know what the wobble looks like. This morning he was found, with his head upside down. But the body was sort of twisted and contourted. Like he had some sort of a seizure. I feel so defeated and heartbroken yet again. My vet didn't seem to think he should have died or lost that much weight this quickly. Was going to maybe do a necropsy but my Dad was pissed off (he went in and helped me pay for him) and already put him in the freezer. The vet won't do a necropsy on a frozen animal. I just feel so terrible for him. Like I failed another little snake. It hurts and sucks. Poor little guy.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...55354691_2.jpg

RIP handsome fellow. I am sorry.

I'm so sorry for your loss- this should not have happened, & I doubt there was anything you could have done to prevent his death, nor is it likely that you did anything to have caused it. :( Sounds like just rotten luck for this poor soul, & for you- he was quite handsome too. Hugs

A necropsy sure would have been a good idea though- it sounds like he was sick & I hope he was quarantined from any other snakes you have?

I'm sorry for your loss. it's never easy loosing a little one.

I'm familiar with the breeder he was purchased from. I actually have purchased a few animals directly, not picked up from a show though.

It's odd to suddenly have symptoms like that appear so suddenly. I also hope they were properly quarantined from any other animals, but I would also double check around or inside the enclosure as well for anything that seems off. Anything like a possible malfunction in the heating equipment for example. We're there any strange stools noted? Or possibly any chemicals used around the enclosure?

There's so many things that could have happened from parasites to congenital issues to environmental problems. It's tough to say without a necropsy.

Obviously, make sure to sterilize or despise of anything properly. I would also keep good notes on your other pickups or animals just in case.

Thanks for the advice guys. We checked around the enclosure. All that jazz. I actually talked with the breeder and he graciously offered up another animal. He is a very nice guy and explained a few things to me. He said unfortunately things like this for happened from time to time with baby snakes. He said as long as everything was set up properly for the snake and things like that he doesn't have any ideas as to why he would have died. The other snake I bought with this guy seems fine. Quarantine measures were taken. We disposed of everything in his enclosure. I am wondering if he had something wrong with him individually. Like a defect or something.

The breeder sounds like a good guy, & I agree- this can just "happen"- aka "failure to thrive" or defect or ??? Did you accept a replacement snake?

I'm kind of scared to, also feel a bit bad about it. I didn't want to seem like I was hinting toward a new one. He just straight up said, hey I have one more pin pied male I would like to send you who is 100% het albino. I really would like to try again. But I am nervous since this happened to me twice already. Maybe I am just one of those 'lucky' ones. I'll give you an update on what I decide. I'm going to talk to the breeder a little more.

That's really awesome. Especially given the amount of time that's passed.
I personally stuck with that breeder a while because the animals always looked great and they communicate well. I did also have an issue with shipping and they went above and beyond.

Snakes are great at hiding what's wrong with them. There definitely can be congenital problems that we miss because they are so good at appearing healthy. If there isn't an outward sign of an issue like a kink or bug eyes for example, all we can do is assume the animal is healthy if it's acting well. And sometimes something big like a move to a new owner is enough to stress them out as younglings to cause the failure to thrive situation, which sounds a bit like part of the problem here.

I understand why you'd feel that way- and only you can make this decision as to what feels right for you. Losses are painful, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

That's really awesome. Especially given the amount of time that's passed.
I personally stuck with that breeder a while because the animals always looked great and they communicate well. I did also have an issue with shipping and they went above and beyond.

Snakes are great at hiding what's wrong with them. There definitely can be congenital problems that we miss because they are so good at appearing healthy. If there isn't an outward sign of an issue like a kink or bug eyes for example, all we can do is assume the animal is healthy if it's acting well. And sometimes something big like a move to a new owner is enough to stress them out as younglings to cause the failure to thrive situation, which sounds a bit like part of the problem here.

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He was very helpful when I was picking out this particular pair as well. I am pretty new to the ball python world. Only about a year in. He gave me suggestions on genetics based on what I wanted to produce. Even suggested that if I paired certain
Genetics up the 'worst' I could get was double hets. Reason I went with him as well is his videos are more information and seems more down to earth. I like some of the more entertaining you tubers. But for buying, I wanted to go with him. Also had lots and lots of good reviews. Through the whole process the communication was top notch. Was so apologetic because he didn't get back to be in a day and all that. I feel comfortable and I don't feel like he knew anything was wrong with the snake or anything like that. So I unfortunately feel like there may have been something wrong with the poor guy. I know I didn't get him to eat, but I didn't get the female to eat either til last week and she didn't go downhill so quickly. Also a thing happens at the show. He sexed the snakes I was supposed to get and the pied I had picked out originally over the internet ended up being female. He apologized and had me pick out a snake. For some reason I picked the little guy who passed away. He was the tiniest out of the snakes. I even seconded guessed my decision a few times because of his size. But I liked his colors and I liked that he was spunky. But I have a feeling the spunkiness was a big stress signal. I know BPs can be shy. But he was very snappy at first and hissed alot. Which is fine. But I noticed over time he stopped all that cuz it didn't work and he would try and hide as good as he can
My thoughts are that he may have had congenital issues (maybe) and the move ended up being way too stressful for him and something ended up giving away in this poor little dude. It can't be easy going from a big breeding facility to a show then a home with new noises, new everything. Despite having lost the little angel, the breeder has made me more comfortable in the process. He told me this new guy is bigger and is eating very well. So that has me feeling a lot better. I'd like to thank all of you on here as well for supporting me and understanding my worries and problems and giving me advice. It is tough for me sometimes. I get very involved when an animal is sick and when I don't save one it hits me. I know if I want to get into breeding I have to toughen up a little. But I can't help my compassion when it comes to animals that look to us to care for them. I feel especially bad when an animal is afraid and sick. I just hope this little snake wasn't too scared out of his wits of me and that is what made him give out. I guess this new guy is arriving tomorrow morning. Worries me it is going to be hot, but the breeder assured me it is perfect for him. So fingers crossed. We are only a state away as well.

I think the fact that you do worry and care is what will make you better as a breeder.

Yes, things happen that can be out of our control. But when one of your top priorities is the health and wellbeing of your animals, that's important. Sometimes sadly the best options aren't ones we want to think about. So while you do say toughen up, still keep that empathy that you show here too.

Às an aside...I had a discussion with a breeder who's incubator busted midway through a couple clutches. A few of the hatchlings across 6 clutches had kinks. Most were very minor. One was a gorgeous little albino gal. Hers were worse, but she still got out of her egg and had her first shed. Even managed her first meal. But we both agreed that even though she seemed like she may be 'okay' now, the risks of her ovulating and throwing slugs as an adult would be a painful death sentence.
You will need to make these hard decisions. But you'll be making them with the best intentions.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

...But I have a feeling the spunkiness was a big stress signal. I know BPs can be shy. But he was very snappy at first and hissed alot. Which is fine. But I noticed over time he stopped all that cuz it didn't work and he would try and hide as good as he can...
My thoughts are that he may have had congenital issues (maybe) and the move ended up being way too stressful for him and something ended up giving away in this poor little dude....

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That "spunkiness" may have been internal pain instead, or, the stress of everything may have predisposed him to pick up something contagious at the show, & because he wasn't eating & was the smallest (perhaps weaker?), may not have been able to fight it off. You'll never know, but just that it "happens" sometimes.

Many more snakes survive in captivity than they do in the wild- nature makes shorter work of those with inherent weaknesses, whereas in captivity, the optimal conditions we provide them helps some survive that otherwise would not have. I don't think this breeder was to blame either- not every thing is in the control of the breeder. I'm really glad you're moving forward with another one. Things in life do go wrong sometimes- all we can do is the best we can- it doesn't seem there were any "mistakes" here to learn from- just bad luck. Wishing you MUCH better luck going forward.

Thank you. I feel that your comments help me move forward. In the past I hid my grief when something animal wise made me so sad. But I feel the older I get, I find I do need to let it out. It helps you work through it better, at least for me. I will definitely keep the empathy, but I do agree making decisions to help the animal along, like putting them down in situations you mentioned is the best for them as well. I would totally be prepared to do so. I wouldn't want to see an animal in pain. That is always tough. Thanks for listening to me vent and helping me along with words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

I think the fact that you do worry and care is what will make you better as a breeder.

Yes, things happen that can be out of our control. But when one of your top priorities is the health and wellbeing of your animals, that's important. Sometimes sadly the best options aren't ones we want to think about. So while you do say toughen up, still keep that empathy that you show here too.

Às an aside...I had a discussion with a breeder who's incubator busted midway through a couple clutches. A few of the hatchlings across 6 clutches had kinks. Most were very minor. One was a gorgeous little albino gal. Hers were worse, but she still got out of her egg and had her first shed. Even managed her first meal. But we both agreed that even though she seemed like she may be 'okay' now, the risks of her ovulating and throwing slugs as an adult would be a painful death sentence.
You will need to make these hard decisions. But you'll be making them with the best intentions.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That "spunkiness" may have been internal pain instead, or, the stress of everything may have predisposed him to pick up something contagious at the show, & because he wasn't eating & was the smallest (perhaps weaker?), may not have been able to fight it off. You'll never know, but just that it "happens" sometimes.

Many more snakes survive in captivity than they do in the wild- nature makes shorter work of those with inherent weaknesses, whereas in captivity, the optimal conditions we provide them helps some survive that otherwise would not have. I don't think this breeder was to blame either- not every thing is in the control of the breeder. I'm really glad you're moving forward with another one. Things in life do go wrong sometimes- all we can do is the best we can- it doesn't seem there were any "mistakes" here to learn from- just bad luck. Wishing you MUCH better luck going forward.

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Thanks again for helping me along in another unfortunate event. I actually tend to agree with you. The more I think about it. The more I believe him being so defensive had some sort of a sign something was wrong attached to it. I don't believe the breeder knew at all something was wrong. I don't blame him one bit. I actually find him very gracious. I talked to him yesterday and he felt that sending another snake was warranted, because he early gets people having one of his snakes die on him. So he believes there was something congenital too that just got passed everyone.

The new male pin pied het albino arrived at 10:20 on the dot. He is very pretty and looks good. Nice and chubby and healthy looking. I plan on taking pictures of him. But I want to have him settle in his new surroundings and have him eat a meal before any pictures are taken this time. Maybe I will snap a candid one when I am giving him fresh water. But no fancy photoshoot just yet😉

I just remembered that I never shared a photo of the replacement pied that the breeder graciously offered me. Here he is.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._215003138.jpg

Hey, very nice- he's got really rich coloration against that snowy white, plus a few very distinct little dots- making it easy to tell him apart from others. I like that his tail tip has color too. :D How's he doing?

He is doing pretty good. Refused a few meals recently. But keeping his weight consistent. He shed shortly after this picture was taken. He is a bit shy but that is okay. I like his cool spots too. The breeder said he was a higher white than most pin pieds. I wasn't too concerned about the high/low white aspects, I am sure other people have a preference. I think pieds are just cool all together.

Great pick up and congrats. I get the feeling you should consider triple checking your enclosure, the heating and humidity you are providing for the reptile. You may have to tweak a few things?

You think so? Curious as to why you would say that. Do you think I am doing something wrong and that is why my other snake passed? Genuinely concerned now. Thanks for the comment.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

You think so? Curious as to why you would say that. Do you think I am doing something wrong and that is why my other snake passed? Genuinely concerned now. Thanks for the comment.

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I mention it because I didn’t get a sense of your describing the environment you are keeping the animals in. It’s just routine to investigate the husbandry aspect once hatchlings begin to refuse food. Actually it’s something we do regularly for our animals in the event something is off. Why? They should be eating machines when they are young and if they aren’t we have to get back to the drawing board and investigate our setups and examine and re-examine our parameters. It’s our keeping responsibility. We won’t know if anything is wrong or right because all we know is the young python is refusing to thrive and we have to investigate that.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

I mention it because I didn’t get a sense of your describing the environment you are keeping the animals in. It’s just routine to investigate the husbandry aspect once hatchlings begin to refuse food. Actually it’s something we do regularly for our animals in the event something is off. Why? They should be eating machines when they are young and if they aren’t we have to get back to the drawing board and investigate our setups and examine and re-examine our parameters. It’s our keeping responsibility. We won’t know if anything is wrong or right because all we know is the young python is refusing to thrive and we have to investigate that.

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Oh okay, I didn't understand why you where questioning at first. I see exactly what you are saying now. I see, when you refer to it because he refused food. I see now. Thank you for replying. Yes, and I do agree on that. We have other BPs that eat great. We have a few pickys too. Him being one. I had to try new hides and things to that nature too. Sometimes it just the fact that they want to be as comfortable as possible. Temperature and humidity is definitely a part of that. Again, thanks for clearing that up for me.

while i would too be curious as to the reasons for this unfortunate tragedy, i don’t think you should beat yourself up about this - all you can do is your v best and this it - the rest is in G-d’s hands you know

Thank you. I just feel bad for the little creatures. But I totally understand what you are saying.