Please, please help me feed this ridiculously picky creature.

I am tired, stressed, and so done with this overgrown noodle's nonexistent appetite. I like him a lot, he's a cool snake, but I'm at a total loss.
This guy has not willingly eaten for me for over 3 months. He was force fed by a veterinarian July 25th, and kept it down, but this didn't change his attitude about food.
Now this guy has ALWAYS given me trouble when it comes to eating, but normally I can get him to comply at least every few weeks. But now he won't even do that.

This is everything I have tried:
- I have tried f/t pinky rats. (He ate these as a hatchling.)
- I have tried f/t small rats. (He ate these a couple times for me.)
- I have tried f/t small mice. (He's terrified of the things.)
- I have tried live mice. (I don't have access to live rats.)
- I have tried hitting it with a blow dryer to make it hot. No dice.
- I have tried reheating it a few times and representing it. Rejected.
- I have tried giving it a long time to thaw in lukewarm water. No effect.
- I have tried a shorter amount of time in warm/hot water. No difference.
- I have changed his substrate, his environment, his heating systems (and waited long enough for him to adjust) to no avail.
- I took him to a vet, who force fed him, but there's nothing wrong with him otherwise. Totally healthy.
- I tried feeding him when the sun was up. AND after it had gone down. And in the middle of the night. NOTHING.
- I tried wiggling a f/t rat with tongs to simulate life. He is scared to death of tongs, for some reason. He will strike, but it's more of a bluff. He doesn't latch on. He has NEVER eaten for me when I used tongs. When he has eaten for me, I just laid the rat near him and he helped himself.
- For heaven's sake, my dad tied a damn thread to a rat and basically fished with it to try and simulate life since he's so scared of tongs, but this was a flop. He checked it out, but wiggled away ultimately.

And finally, last night, I stayed up until 4 in the damn morning watching and waiting for every chance he to poked his head out of his cave, offered, and removed and reintroduced several times over the course of several hours. I even waited for him to come out completely (which he seems to do most nights when left to his own devices, usually to try and harass his heat emitter, though it's out of reach) and while he did take a look at the rat many times and even got quite close, he ultimately said "Hm, no thanks. I choose hunger."

So, needless to say, I am at my wit's end.

I know the specs of my tank will be desired, so here they are: https://imgur.com/a/yXyd8Mv
He has a ceramic heat emitter that's on 24/7 and keeps his tank around 80-85º on the hot half of his tank.
He also has a basking lamp that's on during the day. To maintain optimal temperatures, it is toggled on and off by the hour with a timer. The heat emitter is regulated by a thermostat controller.
The cool side stays around 70-75º.
His humidity struggles a bit, but I can typically keep it above 50%. He has two water dishes to help fight the dryness issue, which works pretty well.
He has paper substrate, which makes for very easy cleaning and replacement, so I can keep urates and poop out of his domain. I do a full change now and then, usually when I do a decor clean. So, 1-2 times a month.

If I am doing something wrong or you think I could do it in a better way, TELL ME. I take ALL criticism. I have no pride concerning the subject, I know I'm no expert.
I just want to feed my snake, man. He's getting skinnier as time goes on, and it's stressing me out. I am now literally losing sleep on the subject.

For the love of god, please help me.
Here are past forum posts I've made when he gave me trouble back then, and know that I've tried their advice since then and haven't had success:
- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...a-New-BP-Owner
- https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-Feeding-Help

Thank you.

First, those cool side temps need to come up. 75 should be the absolute minimum. You should be aiming for 78-80. If he doesn't feel like he can properly digest he will not eat.

You also want to be consistent with your offerings. You're all over the place. Stick to what he ate last. Only offer every 2 weeks, at night, when it's quiet and he's in his hide.

Also, get a new vet. A vet that force feeds an adult snake doesn't have a clue about snakes. That may have even been a setback.

No handling the snake at all. Basically forget he's there's except to check temps and change water. I'm guessing no spot cleaning will be needed since he's not eating, but if he's drinking you may see some urates.

What was his original weight and what is his weight now?

An adult male in good condition can easily go a year without eating.

I have a small 700 gram male that is 3 years old and hasn't eaten in 8 months. I'm not even worried. :)

Quote:

---

First, those cool side temps need to come up. 75 should be the absolute minimum. You should be aiming for 78-80. If he doesn't feel like he can properly digest he will not eat.

You also want to be consistent with your offerings. You're all over the place. Stick to what he ate last. Only offer every 2 weeks, at night, when it's quiet and he's in his hide.

Also, get a new vet. A vet that force feeds an adult snake doesn't have a clue about snakes. That may have even been a setback.

No handling the snake at all. Basically forget he's there's except to check temps and change water. I'm guessing no spot cleaning will be needed since he's not eating, but if he's drinking you may see some urates.

---

All of this has been done over the course of a few months, I haven’t been doing this day by day lol. Also, he’s only 8 months old, not an adult. I’ll try bringing the temps up. I haven’t been handling him much at all but I will bring the amount of handling down to zero.

Forgot to reply with quote. This is in response to Craiga 01453.

187g

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

What was his original weight and what is his weight now?

An adult male in good condition can easily go a year without eating.

I have a small 700 gram male that is 3 years old and hasn't eaten in 8 months. I'm not even worried. :)

---

He was 187g last time I weighed him. I can only assume he's lost a little weight since then since he's only eaten worse since then lol.
Also, there's some confusion on this post that my snake is an adult- he is not. He's about 8 months old. I apologize for neglecting to mention this.

I'm still learning myself so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me like your BP does not feel secure. High traffic areas, large open spaces, too large an enclosure. The fact that you can see him if he pops his head out can be an issue.
What I would do if I were having these issues.
1. Put him in a super basic setup. Really small tub, Heat mat only, water, and black it out on all sides so he feels completely secure.
2. feed live till he starts eating again. Do nothing but drop the mouse in, close the lid and leave. CHeck back in 15 minutes If hasn't eaten wait another week.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walzon1

I'm still learning myself so take this with a grain of salt. It seems to me like your BP does not feel secure. High traffic areas, large open spaces, too large an enclosure. The fact that you can see him if he pops his head out can be an issue.
What I would do if I were having these issues.
1. Put him in a super basic setup. Really small tub, Heat mat only, water, and black it out on all sides so he feels completely secure.
2. feed live till he starts eating again. Do nothing but drop the mouse in, close the lid and leave. CHeck back in 15 minutes If hasn't eaten wait another week.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

---

He appears to be afraid of live mice, so I don't think that would work, unfortunately. Also, he is not in a high traffic area. He is in my room, and only one side of his tank is uncovered. The other sides have wallpaper on them. It lets light through, but you can't see through it. And I have to bend down to see him poking out, he's not by any means majorly exposed. He also has like 4 hides in there, one that's facing away from the visible side, so if he truly doesn't want to be seen he goes there. He's done so a few times.
And I've gone through a couple setups, and I think that changing his setup once again would only harass the poor sucker more at this point.

Generally what you're trying sounds like the right thing to do and seems consistent with the advice I'd usually give. Which is to thaw the rodent in the same room as the snake (use cooler water - warmer generally makes it easier for bacteria to grow when it's defrosting), then using the hairdryer to focus on the head of the rodent (the head is naturally hotter than the body in mammals and it being hotter will encourage the snake to strike there) and offering it the dark.

He might be nervous of your heat signature. You say he's scared of tongs. Even when you've dangled the rodent down, if he can see a big blob of human sized heat he may be put off by it. Are you standing as far back as possible?

The fact that he's interested in his heat emitter is a good sign, it sounds like maybe he's interpreting it as a source of food heat if he is 'harassing' it, but then getting disinterested because it doesn't smell of food. That suggests to me that he's hungry.

Are you interacting with him each day? He might want to eat but be nervous because he anticipates human contact. I would avoid even touching him or bothering him at all for at least a few days between attempts. (But you say he's been force fed by a vet? This is usually a last resort and isn't usually done unless the snake has gone a LONG time without eating.)

One thing it might be is that your hot side temperatures are a tiny bit low. It mightn't even make a difference but you usually want to be aiming around 88. I wouldn't expect it being a little bit cooler to affect his appetite, but it might do - no harm in trying it. I'd bump up his temps a bit, leave him for a minimum of 5 days, and then:

*defrost rat/mouse in cool water in the same room as him
*wait until dark and as low light as possible
*use a hairdryer to focus on the head. Open his enclosure when you're doing this to 'waft' the smell in - if he starts going *blelele* with his tongue it's a good sign.
*Grip the rodent not by the tail - they don't come flying down in nature. Try to grip by the hips and imitate walking and keep yourself as far away and out of sight as you physically can
*If he shows even a tiny bit of interest, you can keep reheating. If after quite a few attempts it just isn't getting anywhere, reheat a final time and leave outside one of his hides or in the open and remove in the morning if uneaten.

I know I've just kind of given the same advice but there's a reason you've been given it - it usually works! Unless I'm misreading the situation it doesn't seem like it's been too long and you may be stressing him out by trying to often - sorry if I've misinterpreted or that isn't the case. I'm just surprised to hear of forcefeeding after 3 months - but I suppose growing snakes are going to be more sensitive to periods without food.

I'm sure a lot more experienced people will be along to add their tips or correct me. I'm sure he'll be eating in the end.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

He appears to be afraid of live mice, so I don't think that would work, unfortunately. Also, he is not in a high traffic area. He is in my room, and only one side of his tank is uncovered. The other sides have wallpaper on them. It lets light through, but you can't see through it. And I have to bend down to see him poking out, he's not by any means majorly exposed. He also has like 4 hides in there, one that's facing away from the visible side, so if he truly doesn't want to be seen he goes there. He's done so a few times.
And I've gone through a couple setups, and I think that changing his setup once again would only harass the poor sucker more at this point.

---

So, afraid of mice and you can't get rats, afraid of tongs, and won't eat f/t. Sounds hopeless, good luck.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absololol

Generally what you're trying sounds like the right thing to do and seems consistent with the advice I'd usually give. Which is to thaw the rodent in the same room as the snake (use cooler water - warmer generally makes it easier for bacteria to grow when it's defrosting), then using the hairdryer to focus on the head of the rodent (the head is naturally hotter than the body in mammals and it being hotter will encourage the snake to strike there) and offering it the dark.

He might be nervous of your heat signature. You say he's scared of tongs. Even when you've dangled the rodent down, if he can see a big blob of human sized heat he may be put off by it. Are you standing as far back as possible?

The fact that he's interested in his heat emitter is a good sign, it sounds like maybe he's interpreting it as a source of food heat if he is 'harassing' it, but then getting disinterested because it doesn't smell of food. That suggests to me that he's hungry.

Are you interacting with him each day? He might want to eat but be nervous because he anticipates human contact. I would avoid even touching him or bothering him at all for at least a few days between attempts. (But you say he's been force fed by a vet? This is usually a last resort and isn't usually done unless the snake has gone a LONG time without eating.)

One thing it might be is that your hot side temperatures are a tiny bit low. It mightn't even make a difference but you usually want to be aiming around 88. I wouldn't expect it being a little bit cooler to affect his appetite, but it might do - no harm in trying it. I'd bump up his temps a bit, leave him for a minimum of 5 days, and then:

*defrost rat/mouse in cool water in the same room as him
*wait until dark and as low light as possible
*use a hairdryer to focus on the head. Open his enclosure when you're doing this to 'waft' the smell in - if he starts going *blelele* with his tongue it's a good sign.
*Grip the rodent not by the tail - they don't come flying down in nature. Try to grip by the hips and imitate walking and keep yourself as far away and out of sight as you physically can
*If he shows even a tiny bit of interest, you can keep reheating. If after quite a few attempts it just isn't getting anywhere, reheat a final time and leave outside one of his hides or in the open and remove in the morning if uneaten.

I know I've just kind of given the same advice but there's a reason you've been given it - it usually works! Unless I'm misreading the situation it doesn't seem like it's been too long and you may be stressing him out by trying to often - sorry if I've misinterpreted or that isn't the case. I'm just surprised to hear of forcefeeding after 3 months - but I suppose growing snakes are going to be more sensitive to periods without food.

I'm sure a lot more experienced people will be along to add their tips or correct me. I'm sure he'll be eating in the end.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

---

Thank you for all of this. I will try the cool water + hairdryer focused on head thing next attempt.
It's possible my heat signature is putting him off. I'm actually an unnaturally warm person, lol. So this is very possible. I'll also try your method with the tongs and stand back farther. I'll bump his tank temps, too.

Concerning the force feeding, I was getting very scared. I personally think that my snake is rather skinny, as his spine is starting to become rather prominent. He is very young from my understanding, so I was growing more worried by the day. I know that force feeding has its risks and is by all means a last-ditch effort to get some food in your snake. I may have been premature with it, but my anxiety was about it had me too tightly wound, and I gave into the temptation of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by walzon1

so, afraid of mice and you can't get rats, afraid of tongs, and won't eat f/t. Sounds hopeless, good luck.

Sent from my moto g(6) using tapatalk

---

lmao

To be honest 185g does sound on the small side if you're certain he's 8 months old, so I understand why you're worried. I would be too. The good news is that snakes will almost never starve themselves to death - if they've eaten before they won't forget how to eat. If you're worried about his spine, do you have any pictures? It might be easier to judge the urgency of the situation for the folks here with lots of experiences with tricky eaters and those who go on these long fasts.

Hatchlings might never thrive but I'd expect an eight month old snake without any underlying problems to be able to continue eating. Remember that their metabolisms are super slow - a few days at this point without any contact or attempts at all will be a benefit for him stress wise.

Good luck with everything.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Absololol

To be honest 185g does sound on the small side if you're certain he's 8 months old, so I understand why you're worried. I would be too. The good news is that snakes will almost never starve themselves to death - if they've eaten before they won't forget how to eat. If you're worried about his spine, do you have any pictures? It might be easier to judge the urgency of the situation for the folks here with lots of experiences with tricky eaters and those who go on these long fasts.

Hatchlings might never thrive but I'd expect an eight month old snake without any underlying problems to be able to continue eating. Remember that their metabolisms are super slow - a few days at this point without any contact or attempts at all will be a benefit for him stress wise.

Good luck with everything.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

---

I purchased him back in January, and he was about a month old then, so if my math doesn't fail me I'd say he's definitely about 8 months. I will be trying to leave him completely alone for a few days. And I don't have any recent pictures of him, as I haven't been getting him out much. I don't think there's too much I can do even if he's got a bit of a poky spine, is there?

Yeah if you don't have any I wouldn't take him out now to be honest. Just try to completely ignore him for those days whilst you wait unless you need to clean out poop.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

I know you said that the sides are covered with some sort of transparent paper but it seems like you have a very scares BP so you want to make him feel as secure as possible.

Personally, I'd suggest moving him out of that large enclosure into a 20 gallon but don't know if that's available to you. A smaller enclosure should make him feel more secure and will also help you with heating issues.

Considering that the terrarium is on the floor, you have to really monitor the temps to make sure that they're not falling down even more during the night. Like someone already mentioned, your temps are very low. I'd suggest keeping the cool side at minimum of 80. You may also want to cover the top of the enclosure that doesn't have the CHEs with acrylic plexi glass. This should help with heat and humidity loss.

I'd also cover the back and sides with black or dark construction paper or something along that line to provide him additional security.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I know you said that the sides are covered with some sort of transparent paper but it seems like you have a very scares BP so you want to make him feel as secure as possible.

Personally, I'd suggest moving him out of that large enclosure into a 20 gallon but don't know if that's available to you. A smaller enclosure should make him feel more secure and will also help you with heating issues.

Considering that the terrarium is on the floor, you have to really monitor the temps to make sure that they're not falling down even more during the night. You may want to cover the top of the enclosure that doesnt have the CHEs on the with an acrylic plexi glass this should help with heat and humidity loss.

I'd also cover the back and sides with black or dark construction paper or something along that line to provide him additional security.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

---

He is no longer on the floor. He’s on a desk now. The floor was a temporary situation. The two quadrants without heaters has tinfoil covering it shiny side down atm. Also I would like to avoid changing his tank because he’s gone thru a few tank swaps already. I think consistency is key at this point. The tank is full of greenery and hides and i would rather add more decor to improve security than put him back in a smaller tank. also, the paper is translucent (light passes thru but not image) not transparent.

Can't say this will work for you but I had one snake that would only eat animals that were warmed to proper temps and then simply left for her. If I presented it, she backed away or did defensive strikes. So one day I just got tired of it and decided to leave it overnight. To my surprise, it was gone. Had to do that for a few months and even then it was occasionally hit or miss. She is now taking live rats regularly. I know you say you can't get live rats but perhaps once it gets eating regularly, you'll find something that works. Good luck.

Sorry , I haven’t time to read through all the above replies but the fact that he has/does occasionally eat for you is very encouraging to me ..

I also only skimmed through your lengthy opening post .. anyways try this method one day .

I leave the frozen mouse/ rat to defrost for hours , very near to the snake’s viv .
Then wait until evening and feed a very warm mouse/rat in dim/low light .

In my experience, It’s the details that make the difference in this method . Royals are nocturnal so feed evenings.. they use their heat pits and that’s where the dim light and WARM mouse come into play . The rodent smell is vital as well so I NEVER soak them in water .. some people have success by wiping hamster /rodent bedding all over the mouse/rat so that shows their smell can make a difference.

So down to the details ..

In dim light , wait until the snake is well settled UNDER a hide then give the mouse/rat’s head a really good blast with the hairdryer and INSTANTLY dangle it in front of the hide entrance .. they normally grab it instantly but as long as they keep showing interest you just keep reheating and dangling until they take it . You have to offer it INSTANTLY whilst it’s still warm to let their heat pits work.

Good luck. !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

All of this has been done over the course of a few months, I haven’t been doing this day by day lol. Also, he’s only 8 months old, not an adult. I’ll try bringing the temps up. I haven’t been handling him much at all but I will bring the amount of handling down to zero.

Forgot to reply with quote. This is in response to Craiga 01453.

---

Apologies, I thought I read he was an adult.

Still get those cool side temps up and be consistent with your offerings. Consistency is key.

You need to fix the enclosure and temps first, that's probably 99% of your issue right there. Large open tank with fluctuating temps and humidity that are too low. I second or third putting him in a smaller tub setup with a heat mat, get his surroundings at proper levels, let him adjust and then try live. If he's eaten before there should be no need to force feed or try a million tricks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rlditmars

Can't say this will work for you but I had one snake that would only eat animals that were warmed to proper temps and then simply left for her. If I presented it, she backed away or did defensive strikes. So one day I just got tired of it and decided to leave it overnight. To my surprise, it was gone. Had to do that for a few months and even then it was occasionally hit or miss. She is now taking live rats regularly. I know you say you can't get live rats but perhaps once it gets eating regularly, you'll find something that works. Good luck.

---

This is what I normally do, actually. He is the same- intimidated by tongs and live mice. Live rats are genuinely not an option for me, unfortunately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

You need to fix the enclosure and temps first, that's probably 99% of your issue right there. Large open tank with fluctuating temps and humidity that are too low. I second or third putting him in a smaller tub setup with a heat mat, get his surroundings at proper levels, let him adjust and then try live. If he's eaten before there should be no need to force feed or try a million tricks.

---

His tank isn't open, there are coverings on the two mesh quadrants that don't have heaters on them. After reading the many replies on this thread, I am planning on re-securing those covers to make it more solid, and making a special cutout cover for the sides with heat. I cannot try live, it is not a viable option for me. I would not be opposed to adding more decor and increasing privacy, but I cannot change his tank.

Sounds like you're heading in the right direction. I agree w/ a lot of the posters here when they recommend to just leave him alone (zero handling) and spread your feeding attempts out. He sounds stressed (maybe more stressed then you are at this point). Also make sure your temps are correct and that he feels secure.

I started to question a lot of things recently when my BP decided not to eat for several months but he's aggressively eaten the last two attempts (something I have't seen in years). They'll eat when they want to. Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

This is what I normally do, actually. He is the same- intimidated by tongs and live mice. Live rats are genuinely not an option for me, unfortunately.

---

That’s where dangling the mouse /rat over the hide entrance may help as you don’t need to use tongs just hold the tail ( your hand is above the hide out of sight/reach .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If you are worried about heat coming from your hand you could run it under cold water for a while and use tongs to hold the middle of the rodent as this is the orientation they would be in the wild, if he doesn't take it just leave overnight, also I think fixing your temperatures will really help and possibly completely solve the problem.
The lights may be a little bright, just use light from outside the enclosure for a little and see if he changes his personality.
Sorry if I missed this but were did you get him from, breeder or a pet store? One month is quite young as most breeders give 6 consecutive feeds and make sure they are over 100 grams, do you know if this was the case?
(Also sidenote I have my 3 month old that I got 5 days ago in a 120 gallon tank (this is what rspca says is the bare minimum for an adult) it works perfectly fine for her and she just ate today :gj: although remember that all snakes have different personalities and needs some will need small dark enclosures at first.)
You could try covering the front for a few days with a blanket, this really helped calm my baby down on the first day.

TBH young snakes really shouldn't have long hunger strikes/frequent food refusals, something is either wrong with him, or your husbandry - fix your temps, and if you are having inconsistent humidity cover part of the mesh top, also CLUTTER CLUTTER CLUTTER including some above the snake so he feels less exposed and lots on the ground.
Hope he eats soon for you!

Also based on the photos (could be angles) he looks pretty ok weight wise a little small yes, many royals are obese in captivity, i found these really helpful images https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8b455959db.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f30620027b.jpg

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

At 187 grams I'd probably be feeding rat pups if he wont take it try leaving it for him after presenting it. If he still wont take it I would try live rat pups. That has made the difference for me with problem eaters around that size. And eventually I was able to switch them to f/t. I know you say you don't have access to live rats but call around and I'm sure you can find them. I'm currently driving 45 mins one way to get to the only place I could find to get live mouse hoppers for a hatchling that won't eat rat pinks. The lil sob lol. Hope you get him eating and hope this helps.

Sean

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

His tank isn't open, there are coverings on the two mesh quadrants that don't have heaters on them. After reading the many replies on this thread, I am planning on re-securing those covers to make it more solid, and making a special cutout cover for the sides with heat. I cannot try live, it is not a viable option for me. I would not be opposed to adding more decor and increasing privacy, but I cannot change his tank.

---

In your pics it looks pretty intimidating to a young ball python, bright lights, open hides that aren't identical, glass tank that's a lot larger than a snake his size would need. It's clearly not working for either of you if he's not eating and you are struggling with temps and humidity that badly. Can you add smaller hides with only one entrance that match each other so he's not picking favored hide over proper temps? I'd also drop the light, stick with CHE or a heat mat so the light isn't an added stressor. If you are toggling it off hour by hour that's going to be bothering him as well as making your temps change hourly. Stability and security is all he's looking for. With a snake that isn't eating, especially a young one live HAS to be an option and long before force feeding should ever be done. I bred feeders for many years because there's no local pet store and have driven several hours to pick up feeders on multiple occasions when a picky snake wouldn't take anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodle.obsessed

If you are worried about heat coming from your hand you could run it under cold water for a while and use tongs to hold the middle of the rodent as this is the orientation they would be in the wild, if he doesn't take it just leave overnight, also I think fixing your temperatures will really help and possibly completely solve the problem.
The lights may be a little bright, just use light from outside the enclosure for a little and see if he changes his personality.
Sorry if I missed this but were did you get him from, breeder or a pet store? One month is quite young as most breeders give 6 consecutive feeds and make sure they are over 100 grams, do you know if this was the case?
(Also sidenote I have my 3 month old that I got 5 days ago in a 120 gallon tank (this is what rspca says is the bare minimum for an adult) it works perfectly fine for her and she just ate today :gj: although remember that all snakes have different personalities and needs some will need small dark enclosures at first.)
You could try covering the front for a few days with a blanket, this really helped calm my baby down on the first day.

TBH young snakes really shouldn't have long hunger strikes/frequent food refusals, something is either wrong with him, or your husbandry - fix your temps, and if you are having inconsistent humidity cover part of the mesh top, also CLUTTER CLUTTER CLUTTER including some above the snake so he feels less exposed and lots on the ground.
Hope he eats soon for you!

---

I bought him from a breeder, but I have started to realize he is not quite as reliable as I was lead to believe. He does not take the best care of his bps and may overburden himself trying to manage a bp breeding facility and a massive rat barn. I had to treat my bp for a bacteria found in life rats, doubtlessly sourced from my breeder. Big red flag.

Moving on, I ended up covering all four mesh quadrants with aluminum foil and used aluminum tape to secure the edges and make them as airtight as one can with tape, cutting a hole in two of them to make way for the lamps. I could put some sort of filter on the light, but I don’t see how the brightness is a major issue since it’s off at night? The ceramic heat emitter is regulated by a thermostat controller so it will just work harder at night to avoid a temp drop- and from my observations, the temp doesn’t drop hardly at all at night.

With these current changes, his temps are now 75-77 on the cool side and 85-89 on the hot. Humidity is up to 55-60 with occasional misting.

I am planning on getting some black paper today to make the sides opaque and limit light passage. I’ll see if I don’t know where I would get a filter for the light lamp though; it gets hot and would melt plastic eventually.

Thank you for your advice and help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoingPostal

In your pics it looks pretty intimidating to a young ball python, bright lights, open hides that aren't identical, glass tank that's a lot larger than a snake his size would need. It's clearly not working for either of you if he's not eating and you are struggling with temps and humidity that badly. Can you add smaller hides with only one entrance that match each other so he's not picking favored hide over proper temps? I'd also drop the light, stick with CHE or a heat mat so the light isn't an added stressor. If you are toggling it off hour by hour that's going to be bothering him as well as making your temps change hourly. Stability and security is all he's looking for. With a snake that isn't eating, especially a young one live HAS to be an option and long before force feeding should ever be done. I bred feeders for many years because there's no local pet store and have driven several hours to pick up feeders on multiple occasions when a picky snake wouldn't take anything else.

---

He has three hides in his tank, two of which /are/ identical. He makes use of all three. The identical ones are spread to opposite corners, hot side and cool side, with the log just there as an option. I am surprised to see so many people on here take issue with my lamp. My vet strongly recommended a basking lamp, and actually dislikes UTHs a LOT. He’s been around snakes since he was a boy, and is now a very experienced man. My own father is a veterinarian, but he specializes in equine medicine and the practice he owns only sees small mammals and equines. However he has worked with Dr. Brauer, my Smake’s vet, in the past and they both hold each other in high regard. So I trust what he says. He said he’s seen a lot of horror stories about burns from UTHs and has never had issues with lamps. Now this did confuse me since everyone on here seems to say the opposite, saying their snakes got terrible burns from lamps and have never been hurt by a UTH. So I’m confused, but more inclined to side with my vet. My sister’s friend knows another vet so if I can gather the money, I will see about getting a visit in with him.

The light now stays on for an hour, off for half an hour, on for an hour and so forth. Lmk if this is still a bad thing.

I apologize if I missed something, I’m typing on mobile which is a pain.

Finally, I have his old ten gallon tank still. That’s his only other option for a tank. if y’all think he should go back to this tank and retire the big one until he’s bigger, that’s fine. Lmk.

Thank you.

I am only going to use the uvb light for my royal when she has at least 3 consecutive feeds with me, this means if she starts to suddenly decline I will know it is most likely the problem. I would recommend not using the light for at least a week so you can see if any changes occur, I don't think this will be bad tbh as many keep them in pretty much constant complete darkness their whole lives anyway and this will let you know if it could be a stress factor.
ALSO WHY ARE YOU TURNING YOUR LIGHT ON AND OFF HOURLY???!!!! This will be so stressful and confusing to the snake - possibly the most stressful thing you can do! Turn it on with a timer at 7AM and then off at 7PM (or something like that) do not turn it off and on constantly!
I think you should try to just keep things consistent for a few weeks as pets, especially reptiles need consistency to thrive, let him acclimate for awhile without doing anything to him or the enclosure apart from changing the water daily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noodle.obsessed

I am only going to use the uvb light for my royal when she has at least 3 consecutive feeds with me, this means if she starts to suddenly decline I will know it is most likely the problem. I would recommend not using the light for at least a week so you can see if any changes occur, I don't think this will be bad tbh as many keep them in pretty much constant complete darkness their whole lives anyway and this will let you know if it could be a stress factor.
ALSO WHY ARE YOU TURNING YOUR LIGHT ON AND OFF HOURLY???!!!! This will be so stressful and confusing to the snake - possibly the most stressful thing you can do! Turn it on with a timer at 7AM and then off at 7PM (or something like that) do not turn it off and on constantly!
I think you should try to just keep things consistent for a few weeks as pets, especially reptiles need consistency to thrive, let him acclimate for awhile without doing anything to him or the enclosure apart from changing the water daily.

---

I didn’t realize toggling the light would be such an issue. I will fix the timer. This may very well be the biggest issue. I can’t afford a uvb right now. But what should I do, turn it off totally or keep it on through the whole day?

"And finally, last night, I stayed up until 4 in the damn morning watching and waiting for every chance he to poked his head out of his cave, offered, and removed and reintroduced several times over the course of several hours."


Surprised I haven't seen anyone touch on this. I have been lucky with feeding BP's during my short 3 year experience with them. From everything I've read and seen, especially on these boards, this came off as something alarming. I think you could be stressing out the little fella even more, repeatedly offering in the same night, hours apart. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I personally would offer once, and if he doesn't eat, I would wait a full 6-7 days before offering again. Hope he eats for you soon!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cincy

"And finally, last night, I stayed up until 4 in the damn morning watching and waiting for every chance he to poked his head out of his cave, offered, and removed and reintroduced several times over the course of several hours."


Surprised I haven't seen anyone touch on this. I have been lucky with feeding BP's during my short 3 year experience with them. From everything I've read and seen, especially on these boards, this came off as something alarming. I think you could be stressing out the little fella even more, repeatedly offering in the same night, hours apart. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I personally would offer once, and if he doesn't eat, I would wait a full 6-7 days before offering again. Hope he eats for you soon!

---

OOh I didn't catch that, if a snake doesn't eat when offered just leave the prey in the enclosure overnight ensuring it is not right in front of the cave, if still not taken take it out do as stated above and wait.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

I didn’t realize toggling the light would be such an issue. I will fix the timer. This may very well be the biggest issue. I can’t afford a uvb right now. But what should I do, turn it off totally or keep it on through the whole day?

---

I think you should leave it off for a whole weak at this point so the snake can acclimate, after that it really depends on his behaviour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cincy

"And finally, last night, I stayed up until 4 in the damn morning watching and waiting for every chance he to poked his head out of his cave, offered, and removed and reintroduced several times over the course of several hours."


Surprised I haven't seen anyone touch on this. I have been lucky with feeding BP's during my short 3 year experience with them. From everything I've read and seen, especially on these boards, this came off as something alarming. I think you could be stressing out the little fella even more, repeatedly offering in the same night, hours apart. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. I personally would offer once, and if he doesn't eat, I would wait a full 6-7 days before offering again. Hope he eats for you soon!

---

I have observed through many of these replies that the stress is likely mutual between me and my snake. I have left him completely alone for about two days now and will continue to do so until I get my sh*t figured out. It's more common for 2-3 offers before quitting, and I went well over that. I'm doing my best to take every post here into consideration and reevaluate his establishment.

First of all, thank you all for your helpful advice and weighing in your own opinions on his tank, heating, and my methods of feeding.
So far, I have come to understand that my snake is not only stressing me out, but I am stressing HIM out.

As far as feeding goes, I will try some suggestions that I have not done exactly (i.e. thaw rat in cool water, focus blow dryer on head, stand as far away as possible when offering, etc.) and have actively made adjustments to my tank (only from the outside) to improve his conditions. The only major change that I've done so far is cover all four mesh quads with aluminum foil, secured with foil tape. The two lamps (ceramic heat emitter, basking lamp) have direct contact- I cut a hole in the aluminum around them.

I've received a LOT of (respectful) distaste for my basking lamp. I am conflicted because I do trust my vet, but I also cannot dismiss such a collective opinion. I do not want to set up a UTH because I feel like that will screw with his environment's balance, which I have almost exactly where I want it now. Starting tonight, when his timer clicks off, I am going to leave his lamp off for a week and see how he fares. Granted, I won't be able to observe him myself. This brings me to probably the biggest issue that I haven't brought up yet and will likely frustrate some of you.

I am moving away to college.

Before sh*t hit the fan, I had everything lined up for him to come with me. A sea of paperwork, medical professionals' approval, and forms were completed to get him registered officially as an assistance animal. I do have an actual DSM-5 diagnosis, which I received as a child, and have been in therapy for close to 10 years. I recently exited therapy (congrats, me) but still, as all mentally ill people do, struggle with some things. Having an animal around mitigates my symptoms and helps me maintain my own care because I have the need to care for someone else.

This Thursday, I move into my dorm. Because of Smake's current condition, I will not be taking him with me. On top of his circumstance, my university has refused to raise the beds in our rooms, so now there is not nearly as much space as I anticipated. I been in heavy contact with the accessibility department, and despite my borderline begging, they have made it crystal clear that I will be no exception.

Instead, he will stay home with my parents, and be under my father's care. However, he won't do much other than make sure he doesn't escape, refresh his water now and then, and attempt to feed him per my direction. He can also inform me of the temps and humidity levels, and I will show him how to work the thermostat controller and timer, which is about all that may need future adjustment. I will only live an hour away, so I am able to go home on weekends, though I don't have a car and will need my parents or friends to transport me. Still, I should be able to visit home fairly often. Smake may come with me later on in the semester or later in the year, but will be home for some time yet.

With that said, I wanted to present a few ideas that I could do before I leave, and see what you all think.
- I could put him back into his 10 gallon tank. I am not inclined to do so, though, since he's already stressed and a tank change may only worsen that right now.
- I will be turning the lamp off for a while and letting the CHE do the work. I do not want to attach a UTH without talking to a second vet, which I will see about doing.
- I could acquire some more greenery and truly clutter the tank and improve his security.
- With the lamp off, I wouldn't want to blackout the sides, so I'm going to leave that be for now.
- Until he's relaxed again, I could see about attaching a cloth sheet in front of the glass doors (almost like curtains, lol) to limit view.

If these sound like good ideas, let me know. And as always, feel free to make your own suggestions.

I truly appreciate all of your support and advice. Thank you so far, and I hope you will continue to assist me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

With these current changes, his temps are now 75-77 on the cool side and 85-89 on the hot. Humidity is up to 55-60 with occasional misting.

---

You're heading in the right direction.

Don't worry about UVB lights or lights at all for that matter. Ball Pythons don't need UVB lights because even though limited studies have been done (see links below), they are not even sure whether BPs can metabolize D3 vitamin so don't waste your money.

https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/173/14/345
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is...captive_snakes

Your cool side is definitely still a bit low.

If you decide to use your 10 gallon, that's probably is going to be your best bet. With the current CHE acting as primary heat source, it should be more manageable for you to keep temps around 80-82 on the cool side and around 88-90 on the hot side. With all the stuff you already have in the 40 gallon, you should also be able to make a nice environment for him.

As someone already mentioned, constant feeding does stress your BP out so give him a break for about a week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

You're heading in the right direction.

Don't worry about UVB lights or lights at all for that matter. Ball Pythons don't need UVB lights because even though limited studies have been done (see links below), they are not even sure whether BPs can metabolize D3 vitamin so don't waste your money.

https://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/173/14/345
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is...captive_snakes

Your cool side is definitely still a bit low.

If you decide to use your 10 gallon, that's probably is going to be your best bet. With the current CHE acting as primary heat source, it should be more manageable for you to keep temps around 80-82 on the cool side and around 88-90 on the hot side. With all the stuff you already have in the 40 gallon, you should also be able to make a nice environment for him.

As someone already mentioned, constant feeding does stress your BP out so give him a break for about a week.

---

I might get a few more plants for the walls of the tank to get more clutter goin' on. I just secured a towel over the front of his tank (which was previously the only glass left exposed) for some extra privacy. I'll get those temps up.

Do you have a plan for if/when this snake continues to refuse food? I'm concerned that you've been unable to keep temps up and stable and now he's going to be taken care of by someone who is less invested in him. A note on your vet/vets opinions. All vets are not created equal, technology and knowledge are constantly changing, it took me three exotic vets to find one that actually knew ferrets and I went through two vets, called six more to find one near me that could actually do surgery on a snake. "Will treat reptiles" or "used to keep reptiles 30 years ago" is not the kind of info you should blindly trust. How many of each species do they see monthly or yearly? What sort of health issues are they used to treating? Do they do surgeries? How would you treat an RI? We see all the time on here where vets are dosing antibiotics without a culture or even known issue, force feeding snakes that don't need it, giving outdated or bad advice. I do think swapping him to the ten gallon (black out the sides/back) might be your best bet, easier to heat with a CHE or heat mat on one side, smaller. Remember ball pythons hide all day, they would not be caught hanging out under a bright light in the open. No light needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smakemom

I might get a few more plants for the walls of the tank to get more clutter goin' on. I just secured a towel over the front of his tank (which was previously the only glass left exposed) for some extra privacy. I'll get those temps up.

---

Extra clutter is a good idea .. as is getting those ‘temps’ right ..

As mentioned already give him a bit of a break just refreshing the water ( during the day when he’s asleep) .... then ... try this method . I don’t thaw in water as it just strips away the all important smell of the rodent which could be vital with a reluctant feeder .


I leave the frozen mouse/ rat to defrost for hours , very near to the snake’s viv .

Then wait until evening and feed a very warm mouse/rat in dim/low light .

In my experience, It’s the details that make the difference in this method . Royals are nocturnal so feed evenings.. they use their heat pits and that’s where the dim light and WARM mouse come into play . The rodent smell is vital as well so I NEVER soak them in water .. some people have success by wiping hamster /rodent bedding all over the mouse/rat so that shows their smell can make a difference.

So down to the details ..
In dim light , wait until the snake is well settled UNDER a hide then give the mouse/rat’s head a really good blast with the hairdryer and INSTANTLY dangle it in front of the hide entrance .. they normally grab it instantly but as long as they keep showing interest you just keep reheating and dangling until they take it . You have to offer it INSTANTLY whilst it’s still warm to let their heat pits work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

UPDATE TO THE SITUATION:

I apologize for neglecting this thread for a period of time. I moved to my college, got settled, and have been adjusting to classes, the campus, and the city. It now feels like a second home, and ironically, I feel more out of place at my own home than I do there. I am currently home visiting family over Labor Day weekend. But enough about me, this is about the snake.

He ate! Yes, he actually ate. Two meals, even. He ate last week and the week before that for my father. He's due to eat again tonight, so I'm going to watch how my dad feeds him and see what the magic is exactly. He was not touched for two whole weeks and a few days, so last night and today I did handle him for very brief periods of time just to see how he will respond. And, of course, I missed my snake.

On the worse side of things, he has gotten VERY thin. His scales/skin seem to sag downward and his spine is very triangular. I'm glad he is eating now. We will also be trying to get him to eat a regular small rat rather than a pinky rat (which have been his last two meals) and see if he takes. If not, I will probably have him fed pinkies twice a week/every three days to compensate for the lack of proper meals. Poor lad needs to get some meat on his many, many bones.

Temps, humidity, and environment are all solid. He has a towel that hangs over half his tank, the basking lamp is now just sitting there uselessly (as it should, I suppose), and he's got a nice, dark, private environment.

Well, that concludes my update. To those with concerns or further advice, I welcome you still. This journey is far from over. Thank you, everyone, for your help up to this point.

Pinky rats are NOT enough food for this snake at all. But at least he has told you that he likes & will eat RATS. So get the right size...order them frozen online if needed,
and try to get him to eat every week. He will never gain weight or even thrive on rat pinkies...they lack sufficient nutrients.

A snake that is as thin as you described but that is finally eating should NOT have been handled by you...snakes don't care about a reunion, sorry. And stress of handling
might make him hard to feed again...no telling, & I hope I'm wrong. I know how nice pets are to cuddle so this might not be the best pet for you- I hope you understand
that his eating comes first...otherwise you'll have no pet at all.

The added privacy of a towel is a good idea...sounds like it's helping. Some BPs are really hard to keep eating- I wish sources would stop saying they're great for beginners, because IMO they're not even close. Too many factors complicate your ability to figure out what's wrong, but if it's any consolation, you aren't the only one...that's why this forum is here...this is a very common issue. ;)

Good he ate, but as Bogertophis said, get him on proper food items ASAP.

Keep us posted.

Dip the feeder into chicken broth it works on all of my new snakes I get (boas, bp’s, retics and corns)

Rather than add an unnatural component to an already picky eater, I would suggest you skip the chicken broth and ask the pet store if they would give you a little bag
of well-used litter from their rats cage...then rub your f/t feeders in them for a "fresher rat scent" after thawing them & right before feeding your snake.

I live in the desert and the heat is insane this time of year. A couple weeks ago I decided to thaw the rats on the patio table. It was 110 degrees out. I set them out on the table, which was in the shade, for about 90 minutes. The rats were warm through and through, and dry (unlike the ones that often get wet when thawed in water--- even if you put hem in a ziplock bag it leaks sometimes). Anyway, they both struck immediately and ate them right down! I've now done that method twice and great success. When winter comes I may consider thawing them in the oven on a low temperature. I just have to make sure to remember them so I don't cook them! :tears:

Smake is doing great! He IS on proper small-medium rats, and eats once a week. He's got a great appetite. And I know that he, along with all bps, don't care much for being handled. It does not bug me, lol. With me being at uni, he's had lots of alone time to simply relax, and only be interacted with when his tank needs maintenance or he gets fed. He's still a very docile fellow, with no nippy-ness or aversion of hands to be seen.

He has towels draping over half of his tank as well as a towel beneath his tank. I implemented a small humidifier into his tank which has been a lifesaver concerning humidity. I can't really control its output, so it currently sprays every 2 seconds. That's the widest interval I can get with it. BUT, his humidity level floats around 60-65, so it's no big.

He's gotten some bigger hides to compensate for his bigger size, he's on newspaper (don't even try to convince me that another substrate is better, this works best for my lifestyle and all his needs are being met- it's flat, not shredded, so there's no worry for impaction), and all his temps are perfect: 75-80 on cool, 85-90 on hot.

Thanks everyone for your advice and help! Smake is stable and healthy. He recently had a beautiful shed, and continues to mind his own and gobble down his rats. :)

Congratulations! I’m glad your snake finally ate. The hunger ALWAYS wins in the end.

Wonderful update, it's been a real battle for you with this BP. :gj: