Making a BEL.

Hello y'all. From what you have bred, seen, heard or learnt, what is the best pairing to produce a Blue Eyed Leucistic noodle. What combo makes the healthiest, whitest (not pinkish nor greyish) blue-eyed snakes?

Mojave x lesser makes very white snakes that usually don't have eye issues.

What would be next to pair with a butter female? cuz that's what I have lol. Also, I love the Lesser gene way more than butter. Have we reached a consensus if they're the same thing? (like CG & Banana)

Lesser and butter are the same just a different line, I don't recommend lesser x butter unless you like bug eye snake no one will buy.

Whether you have a butter or a lesser I would highly recommend a mojave to prevent that.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Lesser and butter are the same just a different line, I don't recommend lesser x butter unless you like bug eye snake no one will buy.

Whether you have a butter or a lesser I would highly recommend a mojave to prevent that.

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Thanks Deborah, that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. would you say that only Mojave x Mojave will make will give a BEL a grayish tone?

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Thanks Deborah, that's exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. would you say that only Mojave x Mojave will make will give a BEL a grayish tone?

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Yes Super Mojave do make a BEL however they have a very dirty head if you make a Hypo Super Mojave the head is less dirty but it's still not a pure white snake so Mojave x Lesser or Mojave Butter will be your best option unless of course you want to go with Super Russo but Russo on their own are not that great of a mutation compare to Lesser or Mojave.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Yes Super Mojave do make a BEL however they have a very dirty head if you make a Hypo Super Mojave the head is less dirty but it's still not a pure white snake so Mojave x Lesser or Mojave Butter will be your best option unless of course you want to go with Super Russo but Russo on their own are not that great of a mutation compare to Lesser or Mojave.

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Thoughts about breeding a super mojave (BEL) x Butter and therefore increasing the normal of BELs in the clutch (50% of clutch)? I am gonna assume that a super Mojave BEL will be cheaper because of the "dirty head" compared to any other BELs.

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Thoughts about breeding a super mojave (BEL) x Butter and therefore increasing the normal of BELs in the clutch (50% of clutch)? I am gonna assume that a super Mojave BEL will be cheaper because of the "dirty head" compared to any other BELs.

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Super Mojave’s cost more than a mojave. And one of them are to expensive to buy something u don’t really like to begin with. Also if breeding I’d not worry about the price as much as getting a great quality snake. U get out what u put in. Cheap out and u will not have the top of the line looking snakes.

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

Super Mojave’s cost more than a mojave. And one of them are to expensive to buy something u don’t really like to begin with. Also if breeding I’d not worry about the price as much as getting a great quality snake. U get out what u put in. Cheap out and u will not have the top of the line looking snakes.

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I know quality of the pairs is important. How important though? Does it determine what the offspring look like 50% of the time? 70%?

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Yes Super Mojave do make a BEL however they have a very dirty head if you make a Hypo Super Mojave the head is less dirty but it's still not a pure white snake so Mojave x Lesser or Mojave Butter will be your best option unless of course you want to go with Super Russo but Russo on their own are not that great of a mutation compare to Lesser or Mojave.

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Deborah, does butter x butter also make BELs with bug eyes?

Yes, because butter = lesser

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Deborah, does butter x butter also make BELs with bug eyes?

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Sadly yes as previously answered.

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

I know quality of the pairs is important. How important though? Does it determine what the offspring look like 50% of the time? 70%?

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100% of the time. These morphs are breed and the best looking ones are breed and so on for many, many years to produce a great looking example. So if u start with the best u can expect the best outcome. Same for the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

100% of the time. These morphs are breed and the best looking ones are breed and so on for many, many years to produce a great looking example. So if u start with the best u can expect the best outcome. Same for the opposite.

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I mean is that what the breeding community claims or is it based on science? Let’s say we don’t have access to science. Has been replicated enough to become fact or is there sufficient room for mutations? Forgive my skepticism but literally every single breeder’s bio is “breeding high quality ball pythons” or “building a high quality collection” and so on.

Will a “low-white” piebald ever create a high-white piebald? Will a terrible quality pastel ever create a high-quality one if bred to a normal?

I mean please help me understand how both of these are GHI + Mojave yet look so different:

1) https://ballpython.ca/portfolio-posts/ghi-mojave/
2) https://ballpython.ca/portfolio-posts/ghi-mojave-2/

I mean I can understand that nothing comes out looking the same.. but what the heck is happening here? Is this because one of the parents was a good or bad example of either GHI or Mojave?

Not to hijack the thread, but would there be eye issues with a Butter/Lesser x Russo?

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

I mean please help me understand how both of these are GHI + Mojave yet look so different:

1) https://ballpython.ca/portfolio-posts/ghi-mojave/
2) https://ballpython.ca/portfolio-posts/ghi-mojave-2/

I mean I can understand that nothing comes out looking the same.. but what the heck is happening here? Is this because one of the parents was a good or bad example of either GHI or Mojave?

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They can actually differ that much just like Lesser Leopard combos can as well and it's random for example

Hypo CG Lesser Leopards from the same clutch

http://i66.tinypic.com/2vvlxrs.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2cmkmbm.jpg

Lesser Leopards from the same clutch

http://i63.tinypic.com/2a017qs.jpg

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Originally Posted by KKM

Not to hijack the thread, but would there be eye issues with a Butter/Lesser x Russo?

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No

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Originally Posted by Deborah

They can actually differ that much just like Lesser Leopard combos can as well and it's random for example

Hypo CG Lesser Leopards from the same clutch

http://i66.tinypic.com/2vvlxrs.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/2cmkmbm.jpg

Lesser Leopards from the same clutch

http://i63.tinypic.com/2a017qs.jpg

No

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So Deb,

What’s your opinion on the importance of the quality of a morph.

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

So Deb,

What’s your opinion on the importance of the quality of a morph.

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Selective breeding is very important at the same time with mutations that affect patterns such as GHI and Leopard your outcomes may vary greatly regardless or the sire or dam.

As a breeder you want a strong foundation which means the best example of an animal you can get, be picky and wait for the right animal to come along, but even than beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is very subjective.

Look at JKR’s animals or even Debra’s on MorphMarket and u will see what the outcome of great quality animals.

To to be completely honest, this isn’t a play around thing breeding animals. If u are this concerned about money and lack the basic knowledge of ball python genetics then u definitely shouldn’t be breeding them. If u are trying to learn then do some research for a few years and you will learn everything that has been said on this thread so true that u will feel silly for questioning it.

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

Look at JKR’s animals or even Debra’s on MorphMarket and u will see what the outcome of great quality animals.

To to be completely honest, this isn’t a play around thing breeding animals. If u are this concerned about money and lack the basic knowledge of ball python genetics then u definitely shouldn’t be breeding them. If u are trying to learn then do some research for a few years and you will learn everything that has been said on this thread so true that u will feel silly for questioning it.

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Appreciate the help. Definitely not about the money. Just want to do it right.

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Appreciate the help. Definitely not about the money. Just want to do it right.

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It takes time to learn about these animals. There are more genes out there than any other snake! It’s crazy! But if ur passionate about it then u will enjoy the long route!

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

It takes time to learn about these animals. There are more genes out there than any other snake! It’s crazy! But if ur passionate about it then u will enjoy the long route!

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Which explains why I spent the past 12 hours researching and still know nothing.

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Which explains why I spent the past 12 hours researching and still know nothing.

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U know nothing Jon snow... lol

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

I mean please help me understand how both of these are GHI + Mojave yet look so different:

I mean I can understand that nothing comes out looking the same.. but what the heck is happening here? Is this because one of the parents was a good or bad example of either GHI or Mojave?

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The short answer is because in addition to the two genes you care about (GHI and Mojave) there are some 30,000-odd other genes that have can an effect on the final outcome of the animal. This is where the whole "selective" part of selective breeding comes in to play. If you like dorsal stripes than you buy animals that have strong dorsal stripes for your colony, even if it might mean they have less of the colouring you prefer. Likewise, if you like reduced patterning then you do not buy busy patterned animals.


Now, as to how to get the whitest BluEL... I would agree with the Butter/Mojave option but I will caveat that all BluEL have the potential for a faint yellow dorsal stripe. If that bothers you then I would suggest trying to get Fire or Yellowbelly into it as well. Both of these have an impact on pigment deposition and so they can act in a synergistic manner.

Adding hypo to a bel would probably work as well... when I breed my blackbee mojave orange ghost to my butter orange ghost, I'm hoping to test this.

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Originally Posted by Alter-Echo

Adding hypo to a bel would probably work as well...

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I have a Hypo Lesser/Mojave, she has a dorsal stripe. It is faint but it is certainly there

Does any combination of mojave and lesser make a BEL no matter if there are other genes in the snake? A breeder is selling a snake at the moment and is saying he believes there is mojave, lesser and fire in a snake which isn't white at all, it's an absolutely stunning looking snake, a full cream stripe on the back next to dark grey fading to cream the closer to the belly. I was just wondering if there are mojave lesser combos that aren't white?

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Originally Posted by Being_As_An_Ocean

Does any combination of mojave and lesser make a BEL no matter if there are other genes in the snake? A breeder is selling a snake at the moment and is saying he believes there is mojave, lesser and fire in a snake which isn't white at all, it's an absolutely stunning looking snake, a full cream stripe on the back next to dark grey fading to cream the closer to the belly. I was just wondering if there are mojave lesser combos that aren't white?

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A Butter x Mojave x Cinnamon isn’t white either. I am thinking that the presence of another gene added to the allelic pair (which made it a BEL) will make it look different from a BEL. But I’ll definitely wait for someone more experienced to chime in before I started preaching in the streets.

Yes some genes added in will change it. When ur reducing colors and add something like cinnamon that add back in color it changes everything. And no that’s probably not the right way to say that, so someone can chime in with the different pigmentations that each gene changes etc. but to answer the question is it just depends. if u want a bel just breed the right stuff and don’t take a chance.

You cannot "add colour" in a Butter/Mojave. Fire, when added to a BluEL will, as I mentioned above, be more likely to push you to a whiter snake without the dorsal stripe. Cinny, does not seem to do much one way or the other when added to a BluEL.

In "dirty" BluELs (SuperPhantoms, Crystals, SuperMojaves, etc.) you can sometimes tweak pigmentation but it is almost always toward further lightening them. I cannot think of a "dirty" combo that I have seen where it was made darker...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

You cannot "add colour" in a Butter/Mojave. Fire, when added to a BluEL will, as I mentioned above, be more likely to push you to a whiter snake without the dorsal stripe. Cinny, does not seem to do much one way or the other when added to a BluEL.

In "dirty" BluELs (SuperPhantoms, Crystals, SuperMojaves, etc.) you can sometimes tweak pigmentation but it is almost always toward further lightening them. I cannot think of a "dirty" combo that I have seen where it was made darker...

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Does a phantom x butter make a clean white snake?

What I’ve been researching for the past 4 hours is the best pairing to get BELs 100% of the time by breeding a BEL x BEL.

So far I am thinking (Mojave|lesser) x (phantom|butter).

There is a 25 chance that one of BELs will be a lesser|Butter and may have bug eyes but that’s better than pairing a Butter to a Lesser in the first place.

Has anybody proven whether or not Bug eyes are genetic and will be passed to offspring?

There's a 7 month old BEL(Super Lesser) Female whose dad was a BEL(Super Lesser) and who’s mom was a Lesser (yikes, so much lesser). She has Bug eyes and I was wondering if it carries over genetically. The breeder over a website similar to craigslist said that he’s produced 14 BELs by breeding this super lesser male to 2 Lesser females and this one is the only one with bug eyes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a5073b74e6.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3c62781905.jpg

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Does a phantom x butter make a clean white snake?

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Butter/Phantom is a Karma. Sometimes they are white, sometimes they display a faint pattern. Check out RDR's breeding pages from 2015 or so, he has a great pic showing a full clutch of Karma that run the gambit

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

Has anybody proven whether or not Bug eyes are genetic and will be passed to offspring?

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It is genetic in as much as it is a secondary phenotype that occurs with increased appearance when breeding for SuperLesser. Just because the parent does not have it does not mean the offspring will not have it.

A secondary question: Is there anything I can do to minimize the chance of getting bug-eyed baby ball pythons?

Some online suggestions for minimizing the probability of congenital anomalies in a human baby:
Eat a healthy diet
Maintain a healthy weight.
Get 400 micrograms of folic acid daily
Avoid exposure to harmful substances, including secondary smoke
Take a daily vitamin

Seems to me that many of these suggestions for a healthy human baby would be true for ball pythons, too.

Dave Barker of VPI recommends avoiding obesity in ball pythons.

Besides humans, breeder trout, chickens and pigs need higher levels of vitamins than nonbreeders. Do breeder ball pythons? IMO, highly likely.

Adequate folic acid minimizes the risk of brain and spinal cord defects in humans. The embryonic retina is an outgrowth of brain tissue. Folic acid in found in some green leafy vegetables, nuts, beans, and citrus fruits. Do ball python embryos need folic acid? If so, how much? The ball python's standard diet in captivity is usually rats or mice. How high is the folic acid content in rats and mice? Do African rodents gut load themselves with greens at a time when ball python follicles are developing? I sure don't know the answers.

So there is some food for thought. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by paulh

A secondary question: Is there anything I can do to minimize the chance of getting bug-eyed baby ball pythons?

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The simple answer is to just not breed the morphs that are prone to it.

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Originally Posted by paulh

A secondary question: Is there anything I can do to minimize the chance of getting bug-eyed baby ball pythons?

Some online suggestions for minimizing the probability of congenital anomalies in a human baby:

...

Dave Barker of VPI recommends avoiding obesity in ball pythons.

Besides humans, breeder trout, chickens and pigs need higher levels of vitamins than nonbreeders. Do breeder ball pythons?

...

Do African rodents gut load themselves with greens at a time when ball python follicles are developing? I sure don't know the answers.

So there is some food for thought. Good luck.

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I get the point you are making and I do not necessarily refute it but I offer up a few thoughts playing devil's advocate:

-While rodent breeders do not necessarily gut-load, most commercial rodent diets have been balanced to provide/meet the needs of the rodents so they are, in effect, being gut loaded.
-If nutrient-deficiencies in our animals were the cause of the bug-eyes then should we not be seeing bug-eyes occurring across the spectrum of our hatchlings and not only among very specific morph combinations?
-I fully agree with Dave that obesity should be avoided (in all snakes, not just balls) but again, if obesity were a contributing cause then should we not be seeing a much higher instance of defects across the board in our breeding because if we are being brutally honest most keepers do overfeed their animals?

Hooray, a Devil's Advocate! Maybe you can help me out with questions I've wondered about. I have many more questions than answers.

Do the needs of the rodents equal the needs of breeder and baby snakes? Wild fox snakes have raided my father's pigeon cages for eggs. Wild corn snakes and bullsnakes like eggs, too. Do eggs have some benefit that rodent prey lacks?

Do the commercial rodent breeders let the rodents sit around for a few hours without food between selection for killing and killing/freezing? This could reduce any gut-loading effect from the pellets. And food pellets slowly oxidize and lose vitamin content. Do the rodent breeders always use the pellets before expiration date? These are questions I cannot answer but which could affect the snakes' nutrition.

Why do some breeders produce fewer bugeyed snakes than others? Sheer luck alone? Could a snake with a specific morph need a higher level of a specific nutrient to develop than a normal snake, and some breeders, by luck, do a better job of catering to that need?

Bugeyes are fairly common in homozygous lesser ball pythons and homozygous leucistic rat snakes. These are (probably) different genes in different snake families, but both produce blue eyed leucistics, some of which are bugeyed. Are these genes in the same biosynthetic pathway?

I think we are seeing a higher instance of defects in captive breeding compared to wild breeding. A higher percentage of slugs, vertebral kinks and small/missing eyes as well as bug eyes. This is across the board as well as in specific morphs.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I think we are seeing a higher instance of defects in captive breeding compared to wild breeding. A higher percentage of slugs, vertebral kinks and small/missing eyes as well as bug eyes. This is across the board as well as in specific morphs.

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I think that has more to do with the number of BPs being bred in captivity compared to in the wild, and the fact that we're bringing a much higher percentage to term. Plus, there _is_ the whole 'you don't have to do anything more than buy two snakes in order to attempt to breed' thing. I'd dare say there's a noteworthy percentage of new breeders who are less than fully prepared when they start. That doesn't exactly help the overall success rate.


Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Eye4Pythons

I think that has more to do with the number of BPs being bred in captivity compared to in the wild, and the fact that we're bringing a much higher percentage to term. Plus, there _is_ the whole 'you don't have to do anything more than buy two snakes in order to attempt to breed' thing. I'd dare say there's a noteworthy percentage of new breeders who are less than fully prepared when they start. That doesn't exactly help the overall success rate.


Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

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What’s are the things many noobs ignore when thinking “you don’t have to do anything more than buying two snakes in order to attempt to breed.”


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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

What’s are the things many noobs ignore when thinking “you don’t have to do anything more than buying two snakes in order to attempt to breed.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That's a long list that I don't care to hurt myself thinking about. I'm a year in on ownership, probably at least two years from doing any actual breeding, have put in hundreds upon hundreds of hours in researching and still don't know that I'll be well versed enough to be "ready" by the time my snakes are. I'll be holding off until I'm confident in my knowledge on the subject and I've seen quite a few who jumped in with far less knowledge than I have currently (which again, I don't feel is nearly enough, yet).

The results I've seen from such haste has been quite mixed. Some people get it right, straight out of the gate. Others have entirely bad clutches. None of this is any kind of judgement, other than to say it's reasonable to believe that more people doing more research before they start breeding would result in higher initial success (and less reported birth defects, overall).

- Charles Eye

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Originally Posted by paulh

Hooray, a Devil's Advocate! Maybe you can help me out with questions I've wondered about. I have many more questions than answers.

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This is what I like about you Paul, you give me an excuse to tick up my level of engagement in these conversatoins.

And tangential, you are more than welcome to drop me a line off-boards if you have questions you want to thrash around. Always happy to talk herps

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Originally Posted by paulh

Do the needs of the rodents equal the needs of breeder and baby snakes?

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In the broad sense the needs of the rodent are vastly different than the needs of the snake because the prior is a herbivore/insectivore and the latter is a strict carnivore. I know that you know this, I am simply stating it so we are on the same page as I move forward.

So, the snake gets its nutrients from the rodents it eats and part of those nutrients come from what is in the guts of the rodent when it gets eaten. I have heard it argued that in the wild, the rodents are eating a diverse array of items so as a prey they are providing a broader spectrum of trace elements. However, what is more likely is that any one random bush rat will have found a berry bush an pigged out on those while a second random bush rat will have found a batch of seeds and stuffed itself on those so the gut loads will be different between the two and each will be high in some traces but low in others. And the randomness of which rodent gets eaten by the snake provides a balanced array of trace over time. In captivity however, the rodents are getting a balanced level of trace with each feeding which would mean that the snake then is also getting a balanced array of trace.

In the end, both the wild and the captive are getting all the trace they need, one is jsut receiving it through constant stable delivery while the other is receiving it through random, punctuated delivery

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Originally Posted by paulh

Wild fox snakes have raided my father's pigeon cages for eggs. Wild corn snakes and bullsnakes like eggs, too. Do eggs have some benefit that rodent prey lacks?

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I would guess that this behaviour is more in keeping with the opportunistic nature of snakes, they will eat what they come across and eggs are a bountiful package. If there were something specific about the eggs that was needed then you would see a behavioural change in the animals where the sought out eggs over any other type of prey/food item.

We see this kind of opportunistic feeding across the animal kingdom. If you have ever watched videos of rehab primates in facilities getting bathed you will notice that they very frequently try to eat the soap. This is because they see the soap as a high source of lipids which are generally rare in nature.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Do the commercial rodent breeders let the rodents sit around for a few hours without food between selection for killing and killing/freezing? This could reduce any gut-loading effect from the pellets.

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I cannot speak for what the rodent breeders do, I have never thought to ask. I am not sure a few hours would be enough to fully purge the guts of whatever load they are carrying though. It is certainly an item to consider.

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Originally Posted by paulh

And food pellets slowly oxidize and lose vitamin content. Do the rodent breeders always use the pellets before expiration date? These are questions I cannot answer but which could affect the snakes' nutrition.

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Yes, the oxidation of the pellets does reduce the concentration/potency of the vitamins/trace over time but as long as they are used before their expiration then they should be okay. Also, I am not sure if animal feed is required to meet the standards of human food stuffs but the concentrations given in human foods are the minimum level they will be at upon reaching the 'Best By' date which means that prior to that date the concentrations are higher. If that is the case then the rodents, and by extension the snakes, would go through a waxing/waning cycle of trace not too unlike the wild ones. Except that the captives are waxing/waning all trace at the same time where as the wild would be waxing/waning different traces randomly.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Why do some breeders produce fewer bugeyed snakes than others? Sheer luck alone?

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This is going to be tough for me to answer because I am not sure of the best way to translate my thoughts into something cohesive for the everyman...

I am inclined to think that it is down to a pair of other factors. The first is a bit of luck though I see it as being the random stochasticity of genetic factors (call it whichever you will). The other factor is probably accidental selective breeding for secondary stabilizing mutations. The second-site mutations do not "cure" the problem but they reduce the tendency towards it being manifest.

Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by paulh

Could a snake with a specific morph need a higher level of a specific nutrient to develop than a normal snake, and some breeders, by luck, do a better job of catering to that need?

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That could certainly be a possibility with some mutations. Since we do not know the specific nature of any of our mutations I am not sure I can direct a literature search tight enough to cite anything specific though.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Bugeyes are fairly common in homozygous lesser ball pythons and homozygous leucistic rat snakes. These are (probably) different genes in different snake families, but both produce blue eyed leucistics, some of which are bugeyed. Are these genes in the same biosynthetic pathway?

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From what I have seen, most species with a BluEL mutant show an inclination to bug-eye so I would be inclined to think that these mutations are very likely in the same pathway and there is a good chance that they are actually the same gene.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I think we are seeing a higher instance of defects in captive breeding compared to wild breeding. A higher percentage of slugs, vertebral kinks and small/missing eyes as well as bug eyes. This is across the board as well as in specific morphs.

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I think this might be a spurious correlation. In captivity we are selecting for defects already (because that is what morphs are when you get down to it) so naturally we would see in uptick in presentation of deformities that present as secondary phenotypes to the mutations, especially when we are cramming as many mutations into our animals as possible (I am frequently amazed by the number of mutations we can get in one animal and still have it be viable). We also need to consider that in the wild most of the defective animals are going to have a very high attrition rate and get picked off before we can ever observe them. So are defects really occurring at a higher instance? Or are we simply better able to observe them because the selective pressures that typically purge them in the wild have been relieved in captivity?

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Originally Posted by Eye4Pythons

I think that has more to do with the number of BPs being bred in captivity compared to in the wild, and the fact that we're bringing a much higher percentage to term. Plus, there _is_ the whole 'you don't have to do anything more than buy two snakes in order to attempt to breed' thing. I'd dare say there's a noteworthy percentage of new breeders who are less than fully prepared when they start. That doesn't exactly help the overall success rate.

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I've never bred ball pythons. I've mostly worked with North American colubrids (garter snakes, bullsnakes, corn snakes). The whole 'you don't have to do anything more than buy two snakes in order to attempt to breed' thing describes me to a T when I started. :)

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Originally Posted by ShawarmaPoutine

What’s are the things many noobs ignore when thinking “you don’t have to do anything more than buying two snakes in order to attempt to breed.”

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What weather/climate conditions stimulate the snakes to breed in the wild. When the males develop sperm. Do the snakes need a day/night temperature cycle for sperm survival? Is brumation necessary, and if so, how low? Those are some of the things I had to figure out when breeding my snakes.

As far as breeding for both healthwhise and most white, it looks like the consensus is to go with Mojave x Lesser..
I am wondering though: would adding in pastel or super pastel increase the chances the snake stays pure white and never develops yellow or grey on it? Or would this have no effect?

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Originally Posted by Aziara

As far as breeding for both healthwhise and most white, it looks like the consensus is to go with Mojave x Lesser..
I am wondering though: would adding in pastel or super pastel increase the chances the snake stays pure white and never develops yellow or grey on it? Or would this have no effect?

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Not sure what Pastel would do. I am inclined to think it might put a light yellowish wash to the animal and increase the instance/prominence of the dorsal stripe.

If I were aiming to push toward highest likelihood of pure white I would be more inclined to use Fire (or related allele) and possibly Yellowbelly. Champagne might also work but I can also see how it might backfire so...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Not sure what Pastel would do. I am inclined to think it might put a light yellowish wash to the animal and increase the instance/prominence of the dorsal stripe.

If I were aiming to push toward highest likelihood of pure white I would be more inclined to use Fire (or related allele) and possibly Yellowbelly. Champagne might also work but I can also see how it might backfire so...

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Whoa... but the super fire is black eyed lucy, right?
What happens if you have super fire AND mojave/lesser?? Are the eyes black or blue?

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Originally Posted by Aziara

Whoa... but the super fire is black eyed lucy, right?
What happens if you have super fire AND mojave/lesser?? Are the eyes black or blue?

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It would look a lot like this.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...-super-butter/

- Charles Eye

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Originally Posted by Aziara

Whoa... but the super fire is black eyed lucy, right?

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Yes, SuperFire is a BlkEL. But the Fire mutation (and its alleles) are a defect in pigment distribution/deposition so when combined with the BluEL group (which are also a defect in pigment distribution/deposition) you are more likely to get a synergistic effect

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Originally Posted by Aziara

What happens if you have super fire AND mojave/lesser?? Are the eyes black or blue?

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As Eye linked: white snake, blue eyes

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Originally Posted by asplundii

As Eye linked: white snake, blue eyes

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But with a contrasting red pupil. I remember seeing one in person a few years back at a local show. It's really neat.

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Originally Posted by Danger noodles

To to be completely honest, this isn’t a play around thing breeding animals.

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So you're opposed to hobby breeders?