Probe Placement spin-off

I'm sure there were other things that went into your decision but you certainly can have the thermostat probe inside the terrarium. I have mine in the substrate over the UTH. Some people will say it's ok but "can" have some problems in certain situations. I've done some testing and haven't had any issues like others have mentioned. Just because some people reccomend one way to do things doesn't mean it's the only way.

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

I'm sure there were other things that went into your decision but you certainly can have the thermostat probe inside the terrarium. I have mine in the substrate over the UTH. Some people will say it's ok but "can" have some problems in certain situations. I've done some testing and haven't had any issues like others have mentioned. Just because some people reccomend one way to do things doesn't mean it's the only way.

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Very good point. Theres definitely more than one way to do things.
But....when keepers with years upon years of experience with thousands of snakes suggest avoiding dangerous situations, it's probably wise to take the advice. It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" the probe will be moved, peed on, laid on, etc...which can all cause inaccurate readings and dangerous heat spikes.
Why learn the hard way when others have learned the hard way for you and are helping you to avoid the same disastrous results?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Very good point. Theres definitely more than one way to do things.
But....when keepers with years upon years of experience with thousands of snakes suggest avoiding dangerous situations, it's probably wise to take the advice. It's not a matter of "if" but a matter of "when" the probe will be moved, peed on, laid on, etc...which can all cause inaccurate readings and dangerous heat spikes.
Why learn the hard way when others have learned the hard way for you and are helping you to avoid the same disastrous results?

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The probe can't move so that's not a problem. If it gets peed on, the pee is a very thin puddle under the probe and the substrate gets damp. It warms up quickly (it's already at least 80f and possibly warmer). If the snake lays on the probe it actually causes the heat to build up faster causing the thermostat to turn off power to the UTH.

From what I can tell, at some point someone who had some experience with snakes started telling people to put the probe under the terrarium and over the UTH and told people it's the only way to do it safely without actually testing or thinking about how heat travels. Thermal dynamics/ conductivity is something I have studied a lot. It's simply not true that putting the probe inside is as dangerous as some will have you think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

The probe can't move so that's not a problem. If it gets peed on, the pee is a very thin puddle under the probe and the substrate gets damp. It warms up quickly (it's already at least 80f and possibly warmer). If the snake lays on the probe it actually causes the heat to build up faster causing the thermostat to turn off power to the UTH.

From what I can tell, at some point someone who had some experience with snakes started telling people to put the probe under the terrarium and over the UTH and told people it's the only way to do it safely without actually testing or thinking about how heat travels. Thermal dynamics/ conductivity is something I have studied a lot. It's simply not true that putting the probe inside is as dangerous as some will have you think.

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Hey, if you wanna do it your way, nobody can stop you. But experience speaks volumes.
If you think years of experience comes from not testing things, you're sadly mistaken.

If you wanna roll the dice with your snake, that's your call. But I see it as my responsibility to my snakes to provide them with the safest home I can. We have a choice, the animals don't.

There are various ways to deal with the probe. Some are obviously bad, some are the standard recommended placement, and others are good, but different.

From the OP's account, the BF himself asked for a critique, and then got peevish and defensive when the problem was pointed out.

We are all going to have disagreements in our personal relationships, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to live with someone who habitually initiates abrasive and energy draining interactions. I detest drama, and won't put up with adults acting like bratty eight year olds. Only the Op can decide if this typical on the guy's part, or just a particularly bad day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

Hey, if you wanna do it your way, nobody can stop you. But experience speaks volumes.
If you think years of experience comes from not testing things, you're sadly mistaken.

If you wanna roll the dice with your snake, that's your call. But I see it as my responsibility to my snakes to provide them with the safest home I can. We have a choice, the animals don't.

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It's not rolling the dice. Obviously you're one of the people that thinks having the probe between the tank and UTH is the only "safest way". When you have the probe down there what happens when you insulate the substrate above it? The substrate gets hotter than normal until the probe catches up to the temperature change. When a snake is on top of the UTH that's exactly what happens except they are a little cooler, that is until they warm up. The snake is insulation over the UTH.

I don't know why you have a problem with me. All I'm saying is that having a probe inside isn't as dangerous as some people make it seem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

It's not rolling the dice. Obviously you're one of the people that thinks having the probe between the tank and UTH is the only "safest way". When you have the probe down there what happens when you insulate the substrate above it? The substrate gets hotter than normal until the probe catches up to the temperature change. When a snake is on top of the UTH that's exactly what happens except they are a little cooler, that is until they warm up. The snake is insulation over the UTH.

I don't know why you have a problem with me. All I'm saying is that having a probe inside isn't as dangerous as some people make it seem.

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I have no problem with you at all. I don't even know you.

I just think it's silly to ignore advice of experienced, successful keepers and breeders. Especially when it comes to the safety of our animals.

Best I can tell, you have less than a year of experience with one snake (forgive me if I'm mistaken). Hardly a sample size large enough to determine whether it's successful or not.

I have been in this hobby for many years. During that time I've read books, interacted with other keepers/breeders, tinkered with trial and error, read forums, blogs, care sheets, etc...etc...etc...

Bottom line, I've made educated decisions with my animals with their health being top priority. I've learned from other people's successes and failures, as well as my own.
As for the placement of the thermostat probe, outside the enclosure is widely accepted as the safest place. It simply takes the "what if?" out of the equation. The only way my animals will be burned is if my equipment fails.

Just to add another point for probe placement, all of my thermostats specifically state not to put the probe where liquid can get between the steel tip and the cable. For wet applications, you purchase a probe specifically for that type of application which is appropriately sealed or purchase a specialized casing for the probe based on manufacturer specs. I’m prone to reading all of the literature that comes with my equipment, so maybe others have not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by craigafrechette

The only way my animals will be burned is if my equipment fails.

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It's the same for me. This is what it comes down to, the placement of the probe keeps my animals safe.

The "what ifs" shouldn't even exist because the issues don't even make sense. 90-ish farenheit is the same no matter if it's a little damp or if it has a snake on top of it.

If you really think about how heat moves, the contact area of a snake on top of a probe (not like it swallowed the probe), what happens to a small amount of water on substrate.... it all adds up to being almost exactly the same as under the terrarium and above the UTH. Except that temperature readings at the probe are closer to actual temps.. and there's another wire inside.

It's not wrong. It's not dangerous. It's just different than what you do.

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Just to add another point for probe placement, all of my thermostats specifically state not to put the probe where liquid can get between the steel tip and the cable. For wet applications, you purchase a probe specifically for that type of application which is appropriately sealed or purchase a specialized casing for the probe based on manufacturer specs. I’m prone to reading all of the literature that comes with my equipment, so maybe others have not.

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All of my thermostats/ thermometers have plastic probes. Herpstat manual recommends inside the terrarium but suggests sandwiching as another option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dianne

Just to add another point for probe placement, all of my thermostats specifically state not to put the probe where liquid can get between the steel tip and the cable. For wet applications, you purchase a probe specifically for that type of application which is appropriately sealed or purchase a specialized casing for the probe based on manufacturer specs. I’m prone to reading all of the literature that comes with my equipment, so maybe others have not.

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Another great point. But at this point, I think it's moot. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...

Anyway, this thread has been derailed enough.

OP, I apologize. Best wishes moving forward...

My t-stat probes are inside my tubs and tanks. Some of my snakes had peed and poor next to or near the probe. No one got burned. Temps did not rise to "dangerous" levels if you consider +2 degrees as extreme. Everyone's temps are checked daily.

Certainly I don't have years of experience under my belt. I am not discrediting those who do but being condescending or calling others stubborn is really not the right way to do anything. If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way.

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

The risk when done correctly is minimal. The probes are designed to be able to go inside the enclosure. I don't know why so many here have to say it's wrong to put the probe inside the enclosure when most of the reasons aren't valid. Could something get inside the probe through the joint and ruin it? Sure. But the electrical connection could also be ruined from the higher temperatures and cycling that occurs from keeping the probe on the heat source.

I never said one way is better or worse than another way. To say that it's wrong or super dangerous to have a probe inside an enclosure is just incorrect.

I don't see the reason to scare new people into thinking they did something terribly wrong by putting the probe inside the enclosure, which is what I've seen here. If the probe moves from the hot spot could the temps get too high? Yes. But some thermostats shut off power when they read temps out of range. Plus that can be solved by securing the probe in place.

And no, I don't have tape or glue holding things in place.

Zina, you won't change my mind because both ways of doing it can be done safely.

I said I didn't want nor meant to change your mind.

No matter how you secure the probe in a cage, there is more of a chance of it getting ruined by liquid or moved by an animal. If not glued or taped, how else is it secured? You cannot screw into a glass tank and you shouldn't into any other enclosure, because you will create a way for liquids to seep into the holes.

It would need to be secured to where the animal could not move it. BP's are heavy bodied snakes. They often shimmy and burrow their bodies to the bottom of the substrate, they move their hides and water dishes around as well, they push and pull stuff along.

So while YOU may have found the perfect way of securing a probe inside of a tank, without tape, glue, screws and in a way that the animal cannot move it, it seems to me that accomplishing that would be harder to do then to simply put it out of reach of the snake and its waste. Secured to the heat source, so that it keeps the heat source at the temp selected.

It seems common sense and the best/easiest way to accomplish the safest way.

But we can agree to disagree ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

I said I didn't want nor meant to change your mind.

No matter how you secure the probe in a cage, there is more of a chance of it getting ruined by liquid or moved by an animal. If not glued or taped, how else is it secured? You cannot screw into a glass tank and you shouldn't into any other enclosure, because you will create a way for liquids to seep into the holes.

It would need to be secured to where the animal could not move it. BP's are heavy bodied snakes. They often shimmy and burrow their bodies to the bottom of the substrate, they move their hides and water dishes around as well, they push and pull stuff along.

So while YOU may have found the perfect way of securing a probe inside of a tank, without tape, glue, screws and in a way that the animal cannot move it, it seems to me that accomplishing that would be harder to do then to simply put it out of reach of the snake and its waste. Secured to the heat source, so that it keeps the heat source at the temp selected.

It seems common sense and the best/easiest way to accomplish the safest way.

But we can agree to disagree ;)

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Very well said, Zina.

It seems ignorance is bliss. Something tells me somewhere down the road, whether it's weeks, months, even years down the road OP will learn the hard way, and the snake will be the one to suffer.
All we can do is try, and hope to educate the ones willing to learn...

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

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Thank you. That's all I've been saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

"If the animal is healthy, eating and doing well, the rest can be figured out along the way."

Yup, and many a keeper HAS figured out things along the way. The hard way. And the animals paid the price.

Sure, all streets lead to Rome and things can be done a hundred different ways. However, when it comes to LIVE animals, perhaps its just smart to go along with what has been established to be the best and safest way to go about things. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had relative newbies boast how their way is just fine and people are just to dang picky. Only to end up NOT being fine one day, and there is the burned animals, there is the sick animal, there is the chewed upon animal, there is the escaped animal, there is the dead animal.

Lesson learned.

No one here is being condescending. Anyone that has been in this hobby for a long time has seen what this hap hazardous ignoring of good advice can lead to. We all have seen the crispy, red and bleeding bellies of snakes.

It works for you to have the probe inside? Great. It will keep on working. Until it doesn't. If you say they do not move, then obviously you have fastened them down. Since you have glass and pvc cages, you must have them glued down. At least I hope there isn't any tape. Any glue can fail over time. I've seen hot glue pop off of a smooth surface without much effort. Other glues as well. Esp. if they are subjected to wetness or corrosive liquids. Any probe, plastic or whatever, is connected to a cable. That cable is usually not one piece construction covering the probe. There is a connection somewhere. Sure, usually fairly water proof. But give it time and liquid will find a way.

So can it work ? Of course. Maybe even years. But why take the risk ? If glue pops off, or tape, or the animal is in any way whatsoever able to move the probe, even if just a few inches or up onto their body, the heat will be wide open. Enough to burn your animal very badly. All it takes is just that one time.

Can a thermostat or probe fail otherwise too? If installed correctly and safely away from the inside of a enclosure? Yes. HOWEVER, what we should strive for is to do the best we can. The safest. The way that has been proven to work the best. And why not? Its not like its a big deal or difficult to do.

In a forum such as that, where many newbies come to, you always want to hand out the best advice there is. Let them learn the well established proven way to keep their animal safe.

Heat (right, or to high, or to low) is a HUGE part of keeping reptiles. And keeping them safe and healthy. Why risk it?

I've seen Ball Pythons live for years without thermometers. Some with heat rocks. Does that mean we should tell people to do this? Because, why not ? It works for some and their animals "are healthy, eating and doing well". But we don't do it. Because we have learned, through trial and error, that this can quickly go very bad.

I tend to take risks such as that with myself. After all, I know what I'm doing. And if I get hurt through my own stupidity, well, I've got myself to blame, don't I? I rode horses for years without a helmet, bareback at that. Until I got thrown off my horse because someone spooked her badly and she took off. I rode that fine, its her sudden stop that made me hit the ground with enough force to cause blood clots deep in my eyes. I landed on my head and upper back. 6 inches away from a rail road tie. Had I hit that, I'd probably be dead. I KNEW the risk, but I took it anyway. Hey, it worked for years. Works for others.

But animals in our care have no say. They depend on us entirely to be responsible and make the best decisions. So I'm always careful to weigh all the options and go with true and tried methods. While no method is entirely risk free, taking the LEAST risk is what I want for my animals.

All that said, you can do what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind whatsoever, I can tell you aren't open to that anyway. The reason I typed all this out is for anyone that may be on the fence about doing things "just so" when it seems that perhaps its not all that necessary. And for the newbies that wonder if they really should bother do things the way the way they are recommended.

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My response to OP was a short one because I wanted to leave it at that. I did not want to convince anyone to do it my way nor say that there is no way but 1 way to do things.

And do me a huge favor : you do not know me, so don't assume you think I am not "open to that anyways." The truth is, I read a lot of threads and responds to very few, probably 2 out of 10 the most, and that is if I felt something that worked for me might help or I refer that person to another poster's advice. I never once claimed I knew more. I had asked for help and opened to ALL suggestions to my questions. So I don't know how your remark about who you think I am is not the least condescending but okay. Moreover, there were some comments posted in response to others who did things differently by comparing the number of snakes one have, I guess that makes one's opinion completely invalid if you have less snakes? All newbies and old should be doing their own research. Opinions are exactly that, opinions. While the forums are great source of info, one should never rely strictly on only one source of information.

I looked at both sides of the argument and made my choice. If someone who have a pet snake that was burned by having a thermostat probe inside the tank (on the glass or tub), please elaborate because I am completely open to learning about that. Or any independent studies done on that would be even better. And I mean where there is the direct cause/effect of how a snake pee on a probe can cause fluctuations in temps so high that it burned the snake. So far I have read responses from keepers who is doing things a certain way because "it happened to someone else" plus graphic pics.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

Other wise SquirmyPug is correct about the transfer of heat. If the snake is laying on the probe then its body is the same temp as the substrate, and probe, and won't cause a spike in temp. If the snake peed on the probe then the animals urine is still the same temp as the animals body, which again is the same temp as the substrate and probe. So again, no temp spike. Of course there is the potential for the liquid to cause damage to the probe.

Not trying to stir anything up or garner any ill will. Just trying to point out that maybe everyone is correct!

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Completely agreed with the above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

And do me a huge favor : you do not know me, so don't assume you think I am not "open to that anyways." The truth is, I read a lot of threads and responds to very few, probably 2 out of 10 the most, and that is if I felt something that worked for me might help or I refer that person to another poster's advice. I never once claimed I knew more. I had asked for help and opened to ALL suggestions to my questions. So I don't know how your remark about who you think I am is not the least condescending but okay. Moreover, there were some comments posted in response to others who did things differently by comparing the number of snakes one have, I guess that makes one's opinion completely invalid if you have less snakes? All newbies and old should be doing their own research. Opinions are exactly that, opinions. While the forums are great source of info, one should never rely strictly on only one source of information.

I looked at both sides of the argument and made my choice. If someone who have a pet snake that was burned by having a thermostat probe inside the tank (on the glass or tub), please elaborate because I am completely open to learning about that. Or any independent studies done on that would be even better. And I mean where there is the direct cause/effect of how a snake pee on a probe can cause fluctuations in temps so high that it burned the snake. So far I have read responses from keepers who is doing things a certain way because "it happened to someone else" plus graphic pics.

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Well, I was replying to Squirmypug, but as I have mentioned, it wasn't to change your or his (her) mind, but instead to point out that people new to the hobby are best steered towards the true and tried methods when it comes to safety.

When I said "not open to that anyway" it was referring to the fact that it was clear the mind was already made up, after several replies regarding the issue. Meaning, I won't bother trying to change a mind that is closed to the issue at hand. Wasn't meant condescending in any shape or form.

If you want examples by snakes burned by a heat source wide open, there are tons of examples online. If the snake moves the probe, the heat source is wide open. If it gets damaged by liquids seeping in over time, same thing. Its as simple as that.

Yes, opinions are opinions, and everyone has one. And no one should rely on only one. What if someone swore their heat rock is just fine and it worked for months and therefor no reason not to use them? That is an opinion and there are those that have that one. You will not find an experienced keeper that will not contradict that opinion.

Some things just get established over time, during trial and error. If you want to do it your way, then so be it. If people want to point out (to whom ever may be reading and trying to make up their mind) that there are safer ways, then so be it.

English is my second language, and perhaps what I type out comes across differently then it was meant at times.

I certainly meant no offense.

And as I said, we can agree to disagree ;)

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Originally Posted by JRLongton

It may be a mistake to wade into this, but I always thought the reason the Tstat probe shouldn't be placed inside the enclosure was because the snake may inadvertently move the probe off the UTH. Since the UTH only heats the surface above it and does nothing for ambient, if the probe were moved to the cool side, that could and would cause a dangerous spike in temps.

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Exactly !

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Originally Posted by zina10

When I said "not open to that anyway" it was referring to the fact that it was clear the mind was already made up, after several replies regarding the issue. Meaning, I won't bother trying to change a mind that is closed to the issue at hand. Wasn't meant condescending in any shape or form.

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I don't know why you think my mind isn't open to it. I never said anything like that. As I've said, it can be done safely and I don't think telling people there's only one correct way is the right thing to do.

I was not going to get into this one but after reading everything said so far here it goes.

I think that if something like this will split you apart, then bigger things like children and money will be way more devastating for sure. Not to make small of the care of an animal but there are much more major issues within your relationship.

Would I brake up with someone who was not properly caring for their animal? Abusing an animal? It all depends on If it is abusive or just preference of method of care. People disagree on how to care for animals. Is his way optimal? No. Are you right about him being able to improve care? Yes. Is it abuse?...….

Educate, think, plan, and then act. Never react!

Best wishes.

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Originally Posted by zina10

...English is my second language...

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I would never have guessed that in a million years! :cool:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I would never have guessed that in a million years! :cool:

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Yup, I'm German ;)

When I get tired or stressed I seem to loose my English sometimes, LOL. So don't pay attention to spelling or grammar, please..

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

I don't know why you have a problem with me. All I'm saying is that having a probe inside isn't as dangerous as some people make it seem.

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Im one of those people that say its dangerous under substrate and you are wrong period.
You can hang a probe when under a RHP. But you put a probe under my boy thats 15’ and when he pisses a gallon of liquid with the best Thermostats on the market or not, within 5 min that piss is cooler than 91, submerges the probe and my Herpstat is running 100% and my RHP is running 170 degrees wide open.
Do what you want but don’t go against a thread on the safety of probe placement when new people read for good advice because you haven’t had a safety issue yourself.
I may not go down on my Bike very often, but i wear a helmet everyday because when you ride sooner or later you go down.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

Im one of those people that say its dangerous under substrate and you are wrong period.
You can hang a probe when under a RHP. But you put a probe under my boy thats 15’ and when he pisses a gallon of liquid with the best Thermostats on the market or not, within 5 min that piss is cooler than 91, submerges the probe and my Herpstat is running 100% and my RHP is running 170 degrees wide open.
Do what you want but don’t go against a thread on the safety of probe placement when new people read for good advice because you haven’t had a safety issue yourself.
I may not go down on my Bike very often, but i wear a helmet everyday because when you ride sooner or later you go down.


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Sorry but last I checked this thread was about a ball python, not your boy that's 15'. Not only that but about an UTH not RHP. I would never suggest putting a probe for a RHP under substrate but thanks for reading the thread and paying attention to what's being talked about before saying I'm just wrong. As I've said if done correctly it's safe.

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

Sorry but last I checked this thread was about a ball python, not your boy that's 15'. Not only that but about an UTH not RHP. I would never suggest putting a probe for a RHP under substrate but thanks for reading the thread and paying attention to what's being talked about before saying I'm just wrong. As I've said if done correctly it's safe.

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Cool it, fisticuffs. For UTH the probe should absolutely be outside the enclosure between the heating element and the bottom of said enclosure, regardless of what species husbandry is in question. Am I gonna have to dig up PitOnTheProwl’s crayon illustration to settle this matter?!?


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

Sorry but last I checked this thread was about a ball python, not your boy that's 15'. Not only that but about an UTH not RHP. I would never suggest putting a probe for a RHP under substrate but thanks for reading the thread and paying attention to what's being talked about before saying I'm just wrong. As I've said if done correctly it's safe.

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Same difference. RHP or HEAT TAPE the probe placement counts.. species doesn’t matter, its the point of how it can be effected. But go ahead and be a wise guy. Ive been doing this for 30 years and seen it all and your wrong. But thats ok too.. just unfortunate if anything was to happen to a animal/reptile.

Gotta love it. Newbie questions 3 weeks ago now telling others whats safe...[emoji85][emoji85][emoji86][emoji86]


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Kinda sad this thread got derailed to the point only 1 out of the 5 pages are about the original topic.

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

Same difference. RHP or HEAT TAPE the probe placement counts.. species doesn’t matter, its the point of how it can be effected. But go ahead and be a wise guy. Ive been doing this for 30 years and seen it all and your wrong. But thats ok too.. just unfortunate if anything was to happen to a animal/reptile.

Gotta love it. Newbie questions 3 weeks ago now telling others whats safe...[emoji85][emoji85][emoji86][emoji86]


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Care to explain how it can be effected? Of course placement matters. Species also matters and the fact we've been talking about UTHs.

I haven't been a wise guy, infact I've been nice about everything including people saying things are wrong or that animals are going to get hurt.

Whether anyone wants to admit it, a probe inside the enclosure above the UTH is nearly identical to having the probe between the enclosure and UTH.

If you want to talk about something dangerous, how about all the people controlling entire racks with heat tape with a single thermostat? What happens if the thermostat has a problem? You cook all the snakes in the rack?

I see far more dangerous stuff done with everyone's animals than having a probe inside the enclosure.

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

Care to explain how it can be effected? Of course placement matters. Species also matters and the fact we've been talking about UTHs.

I haven't been a wise guy, infact I've been nice about everything including people saying things are wrong or that animals are going to get hurt.

Whether anyone wants to admit it, a probe inside the enclosure above the UTH is nearly identical to having the probe between the enclosure and UTH.

If you want to talk about something dangerous, how about all the people controlling entire racks with heat tape with a single thermostat? What happens if the thermostat has a problem? You cook all the snakes in the rack?

I see far more dangerous stuff done with everyone's animals than having a probe inside the enclosure.

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I don’t want to beat a dead horse. The great thing about this country is that I can tell you your wrong and you can disagree and Vice Versa.
Im sorry to the OP as we have hijacked this thread over beginners Husbandry.
Its simple, I will not admit anything as you say “ Whether anyone wants to admit it, a probe inside the enclosure above the UTH is nearly identical to having the probe between the enclosure and UTH.”
Thats plain not true. We’ve explained the difference and you do not agree which is fine.... the probe can be affected by substrate, moisture, the reptile itself etc etc etc....bottom line its not good practice or safe practice.
You wanted to point out heat tape and Thermostats in a rack having a problem and cooking the rack.. wrong again. If you look into what long time Herpers are using here it will 90% of the time be either 2 Thermostats or a Thermostat that contains safety’s. I use Herpstats and not the “Basics or EZ’s”. I use Herp 2’s that contain not only a alarm but also a shut off to problemed channels if something occurs. Having a cold reptile instead of a over heated reptile is the lesser evil any day. Home temps are ok until you notice the problem. This is why we dont recommend the cheap Pet Store Tstats. Do some people use them, yes... does that mean its the safest, NO.
So lets stop going around in circles about common sense safety that has been practiced for decades now.
If you want to debate and pick at each other their is Sub Forum area so that we don’t disrespect people and their Threads.
Open up a thread in there and as I have time this winter I’ll argue with you here and there when I sit down and have a Drink :)


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You do wonderful. I lived in Germany for 3 years. Loved everything but the winter.

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Originally Posted by zina10

Yup, I'm German ;)

When I get tired or stressed I seem to loose my English sometimes, LOL. So don't pay attention to spelling or grammar, please..

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

Care to explain how it can be effected?

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There are already PAGES explaining why. Youre just too set in your ways to learn something.

You've clearly got a lot to learn, but you keep doing you. Keep ignoring the 50+years of experience in this thread alone telling you the probe is safer outside the enclosure.
Your couple of months experience are clearly more reliable than ALL of us.

Perhaps part of the problem is that these Zilla thermostats have huge probes. At least they used to back when I used one many years ago. They are so big and round they would lift a big part of the UTH away from the tank of you would put it between the tank and the UTH.
Back then I put the probe under the UTH and under that would be a sheet of 1 inch Styrofoam that the tank sat on. I made a small indentation into the Styrofoam so that the probe had space but was still firmly touching the UTH without going anywhere. And everything stayed level despite the big probe. The weight of the tank kept everything in place nicely. The probe was also taped in place.
Don't know if I'm explaining that well..


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by zina10

Perhaps part of the problem is that these Zilla thermostats have huge probes. At least they used to back when I used one many years ago. They are so big and round they would lift a big part of the UTH away from the tank of you would put it between the tank and the UTH.
Back then I put the probe under the UTH and under that would be a sheet of 1 inch Styrofoam that the tank sat on. I made a small indentation into the Styrofoam so that the probe had space but was still firmly touching the UTH without going anywhere. And everything stayed level despite the big probe. The weight of the tank kept everything in place nicely. The probe was also taped in place.
Don't know if I'm explaining that well..


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The Zilla ones do still have the huge probes, at least the one I bought last year (before I had heard about the Herpstat brand) had a giant probe.

I do that exact same thing with the probe when I use it for QT tubs using 1/2" foam I had on hand and find it works just as well that way.

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The reason not to put a thermostat probe in the enclosure have been cited NUMEROUS time, not only in this thread but it’s all over this forum as well (search function is your friend)

But I will recap anyway since apparently some people seem to just want to dismiss simple facts.

Inside the enclosure the probe can

• Be dislodged
• Peed on
• Submerged by spilled water bowl

All of which will lead the probe to cool down all of which will lead the temps to spike up and become dangerous.

When placed outside of the enclosure none of this can happen.

Anyone that has not had a snake pee large amounts or spill his water bowl over has simply not owned enough snakes for long enough time.

It’s basically common sense, also apparently not that common for some. :rolleyes:

And for anyone that is new to this and still wonders, I will say this, when following advice make sure you follow the advice of EXPERIENCED and knowledgeable keepers, would someone owning a snake or two for a few months qualifies as experienced an knowledgeable, well I will let you be judge of that ;).

And while experimenting around is encouraged it should not be at the expense of animals especially when potential issues are well known.

And I will finish with this because it looks appropriate once again, you can lead a horse to the water but can’t make it drink. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The reason not to put a thermostat probe in the enclosure have been cited NUMEROUS time, not only in this thread but it’s all over this forum as well (search function is your friend)

But I will recap anyway since apparently some people seem to just want to dismiss simple facts.

Inside the enclosure the probe can

• Be dislodged
• Peed on
• Submerged by spilled water bowl

All of which will lead the probe to cool down all of which will lead the temps to spike up and become dangerous.

When placed outside of the enclosure none of this can happen.

Anyone that has not had a snake pee large amounts or spill his water bowl over has simply not owned enough snakes for long enough time.

It’s basically common sense, also apparently not that common for some. :rolleyes:

And for anyone that is new to this and still wonders, I will say this, when following advice make sure you follow the advice of EXPERIENCED and knowledgeable keepers, would someone owning a snake or two for a few months qualifies as experienced an knowledgeable, well I will let you be judge of that ;).

And while experimenting around is encouraged it should not be at the expense of animals especially when potential issues are well known.

And I will finish with this because it looks appropriate once again, you can lead a horse to the water but can’t make it drink. :gj:

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Thank you, Deb.

Squirmy, when one of the most respected people in this entire industry is trying to educate you, do yourself a favor and listen.
Deb doesn't comment all that often, but when she does, you can take what she says to the bank. She knows her stuff. Learn from her, your snake will appreciate it.

Just to go back over a few things op has stated. Air flow cools damp substrates at a much faster rate then dry substrate. So the fact that the snakes urine comes out at a snakes body temperature is moot, because that alone can cause a wet thermostat probe to read a lower temperature then the surrounding area. Second you said a snake laying over a thermostat probe has the same insulation of substrate as one mounted between the tank and uth is also incorrect. A snake with any substantial mass brings its body temptature with it.
An 80 degree snake laying on top of thermostat probe set for 90 is going throw off incorrectly regulated temperatures untill the the snakes temperature reaches 90 degrees. With the probe under the tank it touches the uth directly. Meaning that even if your snake is 80 degrees lying right on the glass above a mat set for 90, the temperature of your snake will rise at a slower and steadier rate never ever reaching above 90.

...Wow all this because the OP decided to try and prove veterans wrong? What is so difficult about doing this the already established way?

I for one did not sandwich my probes which I do rather regret for my ball pythons(I now have to check tape every couple of hours to make sure it's holding until I can get some super aluminum tape for the underside of my one terrarium that is in use.)

There's nothing difficult about doing it the already established way and I'm not recommending anything else. But when someone already has an UTH stuck in place I don't see any reason to tell them they have to peel it up and risk damage just to put the probe under it. The amount of liquid from a ball python will not cause damaging heat fluctuations. The probe is securely held in place.

I don't know why people seem to think experience has anything to do with this. I have had reptiles including ball pythons a little over 10 years but have recently changed things up a bit. This is the first time I've had a probe set up like this but it's simply not as dangerous as many of you say.

You can have the probe inside. Under the right circumstances, as I've said. That's all I've said. Not saying it's better, but it's an option if you want to take the precautions I have.

[emoji1751]:cens0r:[emoji3603][emoji1751]:cens0r:[emoji3603][emoji1751]:cens0r:[emoji3603]


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If you can't peel off a UTH heater OR your probe is to big to sandwich between UTH and tank, you can put it UNDER the UTH as long as you put something UNDER the probe (length of entire enclosure) to keep the probe in place and touching the UTH, secured and safe. Like something along the lines of styro foam, with a small indentation for the probe to sit in.

You say this is the "first" time you've put the probe like this, and its simply not as dangerous. So...you admit you've not done this for long, yet your short observation trumps years and tons of experts advice ? Some of it based on mistakes that animals had to pay for.

You keep saying "under the right circumstance" its totally safe.

So, for arguments sake, exactly what are those circumstances. 1. in a glass tank 2. PVC or plastic cage 3. Tub ! Using no glue, tape nor screws, like you already said you didn't. Also...keeping the cable that goes to the probe safe and keeping the snake safe from entanglement.

Just exactly what do you do that is SO great and SO easy and SO sure that its better then to simply put the probe where it belongs. Right on top (or bottom if secured right) of the UTH. And is your animals safety worth that ?

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Originally Posted by zina10

Just exactly what do you do that is SO great and SO easy and SO sure that its better then to simply put the probe where it belongs. Right on top (or bottom if secured right) of the UTH. And is your animals safety worth that ?

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You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. It's an option. It's not terribly dangerous. I haven't had the probe set up like this but for a few months, but it's knowledge of how heat transfers that tells me it wouldn't cause a dangerous temperature spike.

Ok.

So how do you do it.

In one or all of:

1. glass tank
2. PVC or Plastic cage
3. Tub

Its a simple question, esp. since you keep mentioning that your way makes it a safe way. So what is your way?

Freakin Joke.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SquirmyPug

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. It's an option. It's not terribly dangerous. I haven't had the probe set up like this but for a few months, but it's knowledge of how heat transfers that tells me it wouldn't cause a dangerous temperature spike.

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You forgot a main factor. Probe placement has less to do with heat transfer than you are trying to take credit for. Environmental factors you cant control also play a small part like fluid spills. The main player is the animal you cant control. I have seen them move things you thought were secure, bust cables and probes that were hot glued secure. They are basically a destroyer and bulldozer of most things put into an enclosure.
You do you young pup, we wouldnt take our own personal time to just type a bunch of words for no reason at all, the old dogs get to relax on the porch for a reason.

Sure wish my crayola was still floating around..... FYI PhotoBucket SUCKS!!

All the time and frustration spent on this thread could have been used to move the probe and set up the enlosure properly. Just saying...

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Sure wish my crayola was still floating around..... FYI PhotoBucket SUCKS!!

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I'll send you a new box of crayolas. That diagram was perfect. Hahahahaha.