Same genes, different names...?

How many genes out there have multiple names?
I know there are a hell of a lot of different morphs and I know a bunch of them are just the same morph from a different line that do the same things when bred out to other morphs... ie;
Butter and lesser, calico and sugar, fire and inferno?, phantom and mystic, hypo and ghost...

Forgive me if this has been asked before... I tried looking.

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

How many genes out there have multiple names?
I know there are a hell of a lot of different morphs and I know a bunch of them are just the same morph from a different line that do the same things when bred out to other morphs... ie;
Butter and lesser, calico and sugar, fire and inferno?, phantom and mystic, hypo and ghost...

Forgive me if this has been asked before... I tried looking.

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I don't think Butters are the same as Lessers are they ?? Although I guess they may carry the same genes/genetics ??

I'm no expert by any means .

In the uk we have a few names for Lessers ... they're also known as Platinums and Lesser Platinums ..


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I've heard varying thoughts on butter/lesser, but I've spoken to a couple breeders that believe it's the same thing. They're both in the BEL complex and both super lesser and lesser butter produce white snakes, so it certainly would seem they're the same. I can't exactly speak to how they react with other genes, though; I haven't looked that far yet. The biggest thing is that I think it's a difference of lines. They're essentially the same gene, just produced by different people.

Same with coral glow and banana.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the uk we have a few names for Lessers ... they're also known as Platinums and Lesser Platinums ..

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Platinum is the combo. It was what RDR called the original animal that he imported in. When he bred it out he got two phenotypes: ones that were basically WT looking (Daddy allele) and ones that looked like a less extreme version of the sire, hence "Lesser Platinum" which has been truncated down to simply "Lesser". When you breed a Lesser to a Daddy you get a Platinum (which RDR has also taken to calling PlattyDaddy)

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

How many genes out there have multiple names?

...

Forgive me if this has been asked before... I tried looking.

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Try here, it should help you out: http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

But just to clarify ..

Butters and Lessers are not the same 'looks-wise' ?

Yes ? No ?


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

But just to clarify ..

Butters and Lessers are not the same 'looks-wise' ?

Yes ? No ?

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This is a constant debate. Let me put it to you this way: If I went to a show and randomly bought 10 Butters and 10 Lessers and stuck them all in the same bag and sent you home with the bag, do you think you could sort them out perfectly as Butters and Lessers?

As far as I am concerned they are the same, the only difference is the manner they came in and who brought them in...

also banana and coral glow

I do not believe there is a difference between lesser and butter.

or mystic and phantom

or banana and coral glow

a couple of the variously named fire complex snakes seem to make the same stuff

all the pastels are the same

subtle differences can often be remarked on, however there are always other genes at play that can change the appearance of the snake.

I proved out a mojave this year that I didn't think was a mojave because she is so flipping dark, but she made purple passions and super mojaves so therefore in my head she is a mojave even if she doesn't look like my other mojaves.

Toffee/Candy?

dont forget...

Classic = Normal = Wild-type = Beautiful

Looks like this is a subject that really needs to get hashed out and clarified. I know there's more! Recently I've seen too many "new" genes which are obviously other genes renamed or mixes all muddled up that are unidentified and people just want to put a new label on instead of figuring out the original genetics involved in the combos.

Here are some off the top of my head:
I just bought 2 'paint' gene snakes. I believe that is the same as 'nazca'. And i think theres another out there that is similar.

I have heard recently people calling fire and vanilla the same but i think theyre just allelic?

Many people suggest black pastel and cinnamon are the same, but i myself disagree on that one.

Gravel and yellowbelly are virtually indistinguishable except in super form. They are allelic as well.

Hypo, ghost, and orange ghost are accepted by most to be the same gene, but the line varies the color vivacity.

Sugar and calico are the same.

Disclaimer i am not an expert please correct me if i am wrong here lol.


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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

subtle differences can often be remarked on, however there are always other genes at play that can change the appearance of the snake.

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And do not forget the effects of selective/line breeding (even if it is done subconsciously) which can also influence "differences"

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Originally Posted by Avsha531

Toffee/Candy?

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Toffee and Candy are absolutely the same. The original two animals were imported at the same time in the same bag and were siblings.

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Originally Posted by Roux

I just bought 2 'paint' gene snakes. I believe that is the same as 'nazca'. And i think theres another out there that is similar.

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Neo (from RDR) and Sentinel (from Bill Stegal). Mark Haas had one too, cannot remember what it was called

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Originally Posted by Roux

I have heard recently people calling fire and vanilla the same but i think theyre just allelic?

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Vanilla and Fire are allelic but definitely not the same, SuperVanilla are nothing like SuperFire.

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Originally Posted by Roux

Many people suggest black pastel and cinnamon are the same, but i myself disagree on that one.

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I agree with you that BlkPastel and Cinny are different but there are others in the complex that are most likely the same, like HRA and GreenPastel and Lori

I will also note that there are multiple lines of both BlkPastel and Cinny that have been imported.

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Originally Posted by Roux

Hypo, ghost, and orange ghost are accepted by most to be the same gene, but the line varies the color vivacity.

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A caution here that there are some lines of Hypo that are not compatible. GCR-line Hypo has proven to be non-compatible and Graziani has two lines of Hypo (G1 and G2) that are also totally separate

In the uk we have Toffino but I think you call it something like Pastel Banana or something..


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

In the uk we have Toffino but I think you call it something like Pastel Banana or something..


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I can see where you would see the similarities, but over here Candino/ Toffino is an ALS animal that is het Albino and het Candy/Toffee

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

Looks like this is a subject that really needs to get hashed out and clarified. I know there's more! Recently I've seen too many "new" genes which are obviously other genes renamed or mixes all muddled up that are unidentified and people just want to put a new label on instead of figuring out the original genetics involved in the combos.

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I agree with you 100%!

The real problem now is those that identify their "own line" of a gene. There are so many fire lines. If they are all compatible = same line. Axanthic actually has lines that when bred together are NOT compatible. That should be what determines a line. I watched a YT video and this guy bought a CB animal from someone and he said it looks like it has fire too and then went on to say he would name it his fire line. WTF.

Banana/Coral Glow
Calico/Sugar
Mystic/Phantom
Butter/Lesser

All of the name changes are miraculously found when the price dropped. Lessers dropped in price and then all of a sudden Sugar appeared at 3x the cost.

These people with these new genes aren't hand importing wild animals, they are buying CB animals and when YB or something pops up, its a new gene. So many want to be the first, coolest, most followers and likes and have no idea what they are talking about.

Someone made a video and said "this just means its 66% that its 100% het" and all I could think of is "It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time." So many experts are just regurgitating others and it spreads like wildfire which is why all of these "NEW" genes. I counted 17 IG posts in the last 3 weeks with said new genes.

Lmao! Sex panther!
I agree. I understand years of line breeding some specific traits and creating your own line of a base gene... Like Brian Gundy and his gold blush Mojave. Seems like some of the bigger breeders are changing the name of a gene to suit their style... I'd hate to name drop right now because honestly they've done so much in regards to the development of the reptile hobby and create some really amazing animals... But some of the ball pythons have so many genes in them they even have a hard time figuring all the factors involved. With that being said... Isn't fire/flame/sulfur the same?

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

I understand years of line breeding some specific traits and creating your own line of a base gene... Like Brian Gundy and his gold blush Mojave.

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Didn't the gold blush turn out to be a separate gene though? Sort of like blade came out of clown and leopard showed up in het pieds. It's interesting how some genes can mask the appearance of others.

If there's anything I've learned over the last couple of years it's that there's so much variety even within a given morph. You can have two snakes with the same genes but they look drastically different from each other. I think if anything odd showed up in my collection I'd do my due diligence to prove whether or not it was something that's already out there before I slapped a new label on it. There's no reason we need half a dozen lines of fire or pastel.

I was recently looking on morph market and read that the Goblin is a Ralph Davis line of yellow belly. I'm guessing its been line bred to produce a more extreme variation of the coloration and patterning than a regular yb.
I have a hard time with most of those morphs. Many of them seem like variations of classic bp's. At least until they're mixed with other genes... For the most part. Some of them don't even tweak the gene they're being mixed into though.

Watching Brian Kuscos YouTube video on the Daytona show, there was a breeder there explaining how the puzzle gene came about from 2 pastels a customer bought off of him and bred. The resulting clutch contained pastel, super pastel, and some new looking animals now being the puzzle gene.

Well now I know why my eyes glaze over when y'all are talking about BP morphs. :rolleyes: It's just crazy-confusing for those of us who don't "eat-sleep-& breathe"
BP's (& no offense to all of you that do). Sure hope you all get this sorted out & names agreed upon...

Another example... Multiple "this is my line" fire gene... The "sauce".
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pst8nrxs7v.png

Justin kobylka just confirmed in his new video... Confusion, acid, & static are 3 lines of the same gene!
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psdaz6ecfq.png

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

Justin kobylka just confirmed in his new video... Confusion, acid, & static are 3 lines of the same gene!

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Josh (founder of Acid) and myself have been saying this for over a year.

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Originally Posted by Sirus Uno

Another example... Multiple "this is my line" fire gene... The "sauce".
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pst8nrxs7v.png

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I read this snake name as pasta sauce! :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Ax01

dont forget...

Classic = Normal = Wild-type = Beautiful

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You are so cool dude!


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This is a great thread, quite informative for all ball python buyers and breeders.


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