I have officially been bitten by the snake bug!

So... I have had my ball python for about a month and a half-ish. He's doing amazing and I love him to death. (Ate F/T for me for the first time last night!) I am planning on keeping him in a T10 which is ordered and being built. So I was thinking to myself that I'd like to get another T10 and split it up for two more snakes. I was thinking a hognose and am hoping to get suggestions for another species that would fit nicely in half of a T10. Any thoughts?

Figured I would mention this... when I got Damian and started posting on this forum I was told I would get more snakes. I doubted all of you but turns you guys were right (as usual). Lol. Thanks for reading!

Doesn't take long to find out there's no "cure" around here, hahaha! Congrats on Damian taking f/t. Take your time, there's so many kinds to choose from,
and some very interesting ones that aren't so common also.

I would not split it and just keep the hognose in it. If you are going with a younger, smaller hognose, splitting it at first wouldbt be bad if you could open it up once the hog is bigger. My subadult started in a 30" and once he got comfy with us, eating, and the daily household routines he got moved to a viv the size of a t10. And even that i would say is a bit small. He eats regular, never missed a meal as a male hognose, Even during shed. His sheds have been one solid piece. No evidence of stress or anything. But he does seem to still be at the glass door begging to explore once or twice a week.
I am going to build a 96Lx48Hx48"W and split it in two so him and my bp will both have 4foot cubes to work with. And then i might try to keep a female in with him as well.

I know im not running with the "norm" here. But my question to you is this:
Are you keeping them as pets, or as a breeder? For a breeder the minimum amount of space a snake will survive in is great. The less space they take, equals less overhead, and more room for more breeding snakes.
If it is a pet why wouldnt you want to give your pet everything it needs to thrive and keep it as well taken care of as you can? After all, it will be your choice to take responsibility for its well being.

I didn't comment on the T10 as I don't use them & didn't know the size, but I'm all for giving snakes more space & enhanced quality of life too.

T10 is 48x24x15h i think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

I would not split it and just keep the hognose in it. If you are going with a younger, smaller hognose, splitting it at first wouldbt be bad if you could open it up once the hog is bigger. My subadult started in a 30" and once he got comfy with us, eating, and the daily household routines he got moved to a viv the size of a t10. And even that i would say is a bit small. He eats regular, never missed a meal as a male hognose, Even during shed. His sheds have been one solid piece. No evidence of stress or anything. But he does seem to still be at the glass door begging to explore once or twice a week.
I am going to build a 96Lx48Hx48"W and split it in two so him and my bp will both have 4foot cubes to work with. And then i might try to keep a female in with him as well.

I know im not running with the "norm" here. But my question to you is this:
Are you keeping them as pets, or as a breeder? For a breeder the minimum amount of space a snake will survive in is great. The less space they take, equals less overhead, and more room for more breeding snakes.
If it is a pet why wouldnt you want to give your pet everything it needs to thrive and keep it as well taken care of as you can? After all, it will be your choice to take responsibility for its well being.

---

They are being kept as pets. This idea is in its infancy and i've done very little research thus far. I thought a hog wouldn't use that much space, again, i've done little research on species other than BPs. This idea is a year or two out..

Any species that could comfortably live in 24x15x15 enclosure comfortably?

Baby or young snakes.

I think you most certainly can split a T10 with a young hognose and another small snake. I like the L x W of enclosure = lenght of critter formula and anything else is a bonus. So a 2x2 (add a shelf) would be comfy for a 4ft terrestrial species. I can see a hognose / king snake combo or a hognose / childrens or spotted python combo. That would be pretty awesome actually. Let us know what you come up with. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I think you most certainly can split a T10 with a young hognose and another small snake. I like the L x W of enclosure = lenght of critter formula and anything else is a bonus.

---

By this math my hognose is about 24 inches long so he should do fine in a 6"x 4" cage.

A 2'x2' cage would not even give a 4ft terrestrial space to stretch out let alone explore or move around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

By this math my hognose is about 24 inches long so he should do fine in a 6"x 4" cage.

A 2'x2' cage would not even give a 4ft terrestrial space to stretch out let alone explore or move around.

---

Most snakes are pretty sedentary and really don't move about that much. I will say that I don't keep hoggies so I'm not sure about their activity levels but my 4ft kings did just fine in a split T8 with a shelf. They were in 40g tanks prior to that but they weren't using much of the space. I originally ordered 4x2s for them but saw it was a waste of space so my bulls and carpets went into them. Those are all 6ft- 8ft animals and they're in the 4x2s comfortably even though I want more vertical space for the carpets so they may get 4x2x2s instead of the 4x2x1s they're in now. My carpets spend more time perching and actually leave a very small cage imprint. My bulls and olive are my most active snakes and again their 4x2s give them room to roam. My olive will end up in a 6x2 or 8x2 just because he does move about a lot and uses more areas of his viv. He'll also potentially be in the 10-12 ft range. My snakes also get out of their enclosures regularly to stretch all the way out and even then they don't travel far or fast.

Again, i know i am outside the "norm" here.
But if you were stuck in a room your whole life, one that wasnt as long as you are tall or as tall as you are tall, wouldln't you eventually stop doing circles in it too? In the wild do you think balls or carpets or olives stick to a 4x2' square? Not a chance.
My ball explores every inch of his cage when he is exploring. There are constantly stories of snakes escaping and leaving entire rooms, not to mention cages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

... I can see a hognose / king snake combo or a hognose / childrens or spotted python combo. That would be pretty awesome actually. Let us know what you come up with. ;)

---

FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

---

Ive been looking at these more and more now. The way you are describing them definitely makes them seem more interesting than the average story. Although i imagine it has at least a little to do with providing it with with much more than the minimum "recommended" requirements. More mental stimulation and what not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Most snakes are pretty sedentary and really don't move about that much. I will say that I don't keep hoggies so I'm not sure about their activity levels but my 4ft kings did just fine in a split T8 with a shelf. They were in 40g tanks prior to that but they weren't using much of the space. I originally ordered 4x2s for them but saw it was a waste of space so my bulls and carpets went into them. Those are all 6ft- 8ft animals and they're in the 4x2s comfortably even though I want more vertical space for the carpets so they may get 4x2x2s instead of the 4x2x1s they're in now. My carpets spend more time perching and actually leave a very small cage imprint. My bulls and olive are my most active snakes and again their 4x2s give them room to roam. My olive will end up in a 6x2 or 8x2 just because he does move about a lot and uses more areas of his viv. He'll also potentially be in the 10-12 ft range. My snakes also get out of their enclosures regularly to stretch all the way out and even then they don't travel far or fast.

---

I think it's actually a LENGTH AND a WIDTH not L x W ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Please don't get me wrong y'all. There's absolutely nothing wrong with large enclosures or providing lots of space for your critters. I'm by no means advocating for putting large animals in cramped spaces. My original comment was more in reference to younger / smaller snakes starting out in smaller enclosures. As my snakes grow so do their vivs. My 6ft carpets are in 4x2s. I think a 6ft cage is a bit of overkill for them since they're usually perched anyway. I've seen them perched in the same spot for weeks at a time. They mostly move around when they're hungry. After they eat they're just hanging out on the warm side or on a shelf or perch. Only one of my carpets (coastal) will actively cruise his viv. The olive is a different story altogether. He likes to roam his enclosure. He's only a juvenile so a 4x2 is good for now but he'll end up in a 6 or 8 ft cage as an adult.

I'm curious to hear what size enclosures you all keep your juvenile and adult critters in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Again, i know i am outside the "norm" here.
But if you were stuck in a room your whole life, one that wasnt as long as you are tall or as tall as you are tall, wouldn't you eventually stop doing circles in it too? In the wild do you think balls or carpets or olives stick to a 4x2' square? Not a chance.
My ball explores every inch of his cage when he is exploring.There are constantly stories of snakes escaping and leaving entire rooms, not to mention cages.

---

@ John- Is your BP very active and what size enclosure do you keep it in? Would you put a 5 ft BP in a 6 or 8ft enclosure? None of us can provide an animal in captivity with the infinite space it would have to roam in the wild but I make sure my animals get lots of time outside their vivs to free roam just so they don't go stir crazy. I'm 6'2 and being confined to a 6x6 space would definitely drive me mad but snakes aren't people and many actually prefer smaller spaces. Don't most wild BPs live in burrows for most of their lives and usually only venture out in search of food or mating opportunities?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I've kept a spotted python (Antaresia maculosa) for about 10 years now, she is NOT "terrestrial". She spends a lot of time on her branches, basking & hanging
out. You'd be missing the fun of keeping one of these without cage height & full visibility & she is not shy either...she is quick to investigate my presence even if she
is in one of her hides. (she is sensitive to floor vibrations, I assume) If you want one of these, I'd use a bigger enclosure, & glass tanks (kept warm!) work just fine.

Maybe one of the small milk snakes or hognose would work ok though.

---

My apologies. I didn't mean to imply that Spotted Pythons were terrestrial critters. Like carpets they're semi arboreal so some vertical space should be provided. Does your spotted spend a lot of time on the ground as well as in the trees and what size enclosure do you keep your girl in?

Yes, at minimum. Mine now is just over 3 feet. And he is in a 4x2 tank. The hog is in a 4'x16" tank. I will be finished moving next weekend and will be building a 8x4x4' to divide into two 4x4x4 cubes for both my hog and bp. I also keep them in bioactive enclosures as i find doing this plus keeping a regulalrly timed sunrise/sunset brings out more natural behavior than i have previously had.
And yes, i realize that snakes have different habits and behaviors than humans. The point of what i was saying is that in a cramped cage without sufficient or even new mental stimuli from time to time your snake will get bored. Just like any creature.
Yes, but in the wild do you think a bp comes out once a week for 15 mins to get fed or does it have to come out sometimes night after night waiting to ambush something, Or find water or escape predation. Also they like their hides to be cramped, not their environments.
I also realize we are not world creators and dont have entire continents or planets to work with. But, since we did choose to take responsibility for an exotic animal it is not unreasonable to think that providing something as close to their home as we are able is within that scope of responsibility. As long as you provide the proper environment a bp would feel comfortable in an entire stadium. They live in the expansive outdoors in the wild and feel just fine about it.
The pet trade pushes the small enclosure thing for two main reasons. One, is breeders, for a breeder space is prime, smaller cages reduce overhead. Info trickles down from there.
Two is the pet sales. Pet stores have the same issues with space and overhead as breeders but on top of that It is easier to sell a pet that will have a smaller footprint in your home and a cheaper setup than it is to sell something that will require more money and space. Overhead in your home. What is the one question you hear over and over again when people come in to pet stores? "What size cage can it be in?" It is a major factor in the hobby.
(Maybe it is just one main reason)

Ask any prisoner, a little bit of daily yard time does not help them forget how small their cell is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Yes, at minimum. Mine now is just over 3 feet. And he is in a 4x2 tank. The hog is in a 4'x16" tank. I will be finished moving next weekend and will be building a 8x4x4' to divide into two 4x4x4 cubes for both my hog and bp. I also keep them in bioactive enclosures as i find doing this plus keeping a regulalrly timed sunrise/sunset brings out more natural behavior than i have previously had.
And yes, i realize that snakes have different habits and behaviors than humans. The point of what i was saying is that in a cramped cage without sufficient or even new mental stimuli from time to time your snake will get bored. Just like any creature.
Yes, but in the wild do you think a bp comes out once a week for 15 mins to get fed or does it have to come out sometimes night after night waiting to ambush something, Or find water or escape predation. Also they like their hides to be cramped, not their environments.
I also realize we are not world creators and dont have entire continents or planets to work with. But, since we did choose to take responsibility for an exotic animal it is not unreasonable to think that providing something as close to their home as we are able is within that scope of responsibility. As long as you provide the proper environment a bp would feel comfortable in an entire stadium. They live in the expansive outdoors in the wild and feel just fine about it.
The pet trade pushes the small enclosure thing for two main reasons. One, is breeders, for a breeder space is prime, smaller cages reduce overhead. Info trickles down from there.
Two is the pet sales. Pet stores have the same issues with space and overhead as breeders but on top of that It is easier to sell a pet that will have a smaller footprint in your home and a cheaper setup than it is to sell something that will require more money and space. Overhead in your home. What is the one question you hear over and over again when people come in to pet stores? "What size cage can it be in?" It is a major factor in the hobby.
(Maybe it is just one main reason)

Ask any prisoner, a little bit of daily yard time does not help them forget how small their cell is.

---

You are attempting to assign human wants and needs to a snake. This is a mistake. Their brains are different than yours. Almost everything about them is different. Study, experiment, study some more. At that point an informed opinion can be formulated. I am only knowledgeable about two snake species and will only comment on those, however not a single snake has very much in common with a human.

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Snakes need mental stimuli

---

Define and quantify please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

in a small cage

---

What is the magic formula?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

you are the one attempting to assign human needs

---

Not really. I personally will only keep animals where my needs and theirs do not collide.

What experiences are you applying to your assessments?

Good discussion if you can provide me with data I do not have. Not everything I have read has proved out to be true. Have you ever done experiments where you have kept animals in natural settings vs clinical ones and determined if it affected eating habits, growth rates, longevity, general health, or mental state?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

---

Honestly, your argument borders into animal rights arguments that deem we shouldn't keep ANY undomesticated species in captivity, because we will never be able to give them enough space. Most common snakes we keep still are relatively sedentary compared to most animals. I can call you cruel for keeping a hognose in a 10 feet enclosure, because in the wild they would have infinite feet. You're still assigning human needs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Define and quantify please.



What is the magic formula?



Not really. I personally will only keep animals where my needs and theirs do not collide.

What experiences are you applying to your assessments?

Good discussion if you can provide me with data I do not have. Not everything I have read has proved out to be true. Have you ever done experiments where you have kept animals in natural settings vs clinical ones and determined if it affected eating habits, growth rates, longevity, general health, or mental state?

---

Ok so a few of those you have taken out of context.
I dont know what you personally do. That statement was a generalization to the point that if you are doing anything other than your best to match its natural environment, you are putting your own needs first. I do this as well. My bp is in a 48" tank for now because the place i live in now is too small for something bigger. My hog started in a smaller tank with aspen too because i didnt have the time to build his viv at that point. My hog doesnt have a ramping timer yet so his day/night lights are just on/off.

I dont think there is a magic formula. I think providing the biggest environment that you can afford and maintain is the right size.

I have been keeping herps since i was a child. (Almost 30 years now) I got lucky and my mom worked at a local zoo. I started keeping and breeding veiled chameleons. I converted a 5'x3x2' dresser into a viv. The breeding pair stayed in this. It was planted had vines and hibiscus and other things in it. After the first two clutches i bought and built a a couple of growout cubbies for the babies. The ones i sold from the house stayed in bigger more natural cubbies. (Soil, plants, cuc) the ones that went to local pet stores stayed in the typical sterile breeder style cubbies. The ones that stayed in the more sterile cubbies were more easily stressed, more nervous, more prone to sickness and did not have as great an appetite and were therefore smaller on average. I might still have my notebooks on this that will have weights and dates and stuff.
I have bred and kept many different species of reptile and amphibian over the years.
Some with some weird requirements, like needing a puddle, or rainfall that is pretty accurately simulated. Either way i found the best way was to research that specific animal and try to match its environment as best i could.

I found that a regularly timed sunset/sunrise created more natural behavior in the animals. Getting up with the sun and ramping of the heat for the diurnal. Going to hide for sleep when the heat and light starts ramping for the nocturnal. Becoming active just before lights off for the nocturnal.
More actively using basking spots.
With moving water, using the water more often.

BPs are relatively new to me.
Only had mine for about a year now. He started in a 40gal breeder with me with aspen. He did not do well at all. Stressed and nervous all the time, cage aggressive, would fast frequently, poop irregularly, shed in tatters. Humidity and temps were good. He would stay in his hide all the time till i pulled him out for food. He is now in the 48" bioactive and it is a complete 180. He is active a majority of the nights of the week. The only time he doesnt eat is during shed. One piece whole sheds now. He is not cage agressive at all and now i feed him in his tank. Since i started feeding in his tank his feeding is more natural and graceful as well. He waits and ambushes when the rat goes by instead of bumbling around his feeding tank until he finds the rat.

All "data" is anectdotal at this point from keepers much older than me and like me who have kept then for a long time like this or in zoos.

As for the mental stimuli, that is provided through the viv and through the time the snake spends with you during handling and its daily experiences. There is a reason it is recommended to re-scape the viv every few months.

All these things are pretty simply googled. I found most of it while researching bioactive vivs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

Honestly, your argument borders into animal rights arguments that deem we shouldn't keep ANY undomesticated species in captivity, because we will never be able to give them enough space. Most common snakes we keep still are relatively sedentary compared to most animals. I can call you cruel for keeping a hognose in a 10 feet enclosure, because in the wild they would have infinite feet. You're still assigning human needs.

---

Hahaha at no point did i say anyone shouldnt keep these animals or that i dont also put some human needs first. The viv is in my house so naturally this will occur.
I am saying that if you are getting the animal as a pet, shouldnt your first concern be to provide the best environment you possibly can?
Like when people say "i know "X" size is better but will "x" size work?"
That is why i said it all depends on why you have the animal, breeding, or pet?
Clearly the reason for keeping the animal dictates the way you keep it. I thought i had made it clear that i understood that in the first post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

Hahaha at no point did i say anyone shouldnt keep these animals or that i dont also put some human needs first. The viv is in my house so naturally this will occur.
I am saying that if you are getting the animal as a pet, shouldnt your first concern be to provide the best environment you possibly can?
Like when people say "i know "X" size is better but will "x" size work?"
That is why i said it all depends on why you have the animal, breeding, or pet?
Clearly the reason for keeping the animal dictates the way you keep it. I thought i had made it clear that i understood that in the first post.

---

You give the impression you're enforcing your own personal ideals on how a species should thrive as a new standard. It could be argued your human assigning is the desire to go over and beyond for your own sense of achievement and superiority while the snake doesn't actually need as much as you are projecting.

By your augment, I'm assigning my human needs over my snake by not choosing a bioactive enclosure for my current or future snakes. I could very well create an artificial 7x4x4 cage and you could still sneer at the fact it's not natural or wild enough.

Also going by your argument, that means I have no right to keep my cats indoors and I should let them free roam outside unsupervised. I should allow them to hunt wild animals without regard how it's effecting wildlife because hey, I'm placing their needs over my needs of being a responsible owner.

Before you say cats and snakes are two different beings, then let me point out human prisoners and snakes are also different.

Yes I think snakes benefit from enrichment without a doubt, (I myself prefer larger cages) but how are you personally measuring that? Enrichment can be achieved without requiring a 6ft plus bioative haven or palace for a snake to thrive and be happy. You can keep your snakes however you want of course, but implying other ways of keeping are inferior comes across as pretentious.

At this point I have about 60 resident ball pythons all in racks. That number will triple in the next two months when the eggs begin a hatching. Out of all the animals that have come and gone, I have only had one that I would classify as not a happy camper. He has issues that I have not gotten to the bottom of yet. For the most part, a ball python that is super active is uncomfortable, hungry, or looking for love. Snake musculature is different than a humans. They do not require exercise to maintain muscle definition. Most pythons if not all have the ability to actually "suspend" the digestive tract to the point of the organs involved actually shrinking. They are designed to chill. During fasting periods my adults very rarely do anything other than mimic rocks. Even if they are out, they will often continue to do nothing if they "feel" safe.

There is nothing wrong with providing a ball with space as long as they have a place they can hide and the environment is controllable. The boys are likely to get very entertaining for a month or so out of the year. There is also nothing wrong with racking them. They do just fine. Eat well, shed well, procreate well and knock on wood, don't get sick. Stressed out animals, including humans have the tendency to get sick. Hmmm. Most of the issues I have heard concerning balls start out with, I am keeping my animal in some giant fish aquarium and he must be happy because he is out playing all the time.

I have a single bearded dragon. He is kept totally different from my snakes. He seems to thrive on interaction and utilizes the space he has for something other than sleeping. Still not a bright animal but he is alert and appears to be able to tell people apart. He knows my wife feeds him and I don't. I would say proportionately he requires far more space than my snakes.

I don't know squat about chameleons other than I know they cannot be kept like ball pythons.

I have kept enough balls to know I wouldn't want to try bioactive with them. The poop is dog sized and when they pee, which is not often, there is a flood. Urate is no big deal.

My point is different species require different things. Some animals make good pets because their needs can be met easily. Some others cannot. My personal pet people is people that buy hunting dogs and try to turn them into house pets, but that is another story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MissterDog

You give the impression you're enforcing your own personal ideals on how a species should thrive as a new standard. It could be argued your human assigning is the desire to go over and beyond for your own sense of achievement and superiority while the snake doesn't actually need as much as you are projecting.

By your augment, I'm assigning my human needs over my snake by not choosing a bioactive enclosure for my current or future snakes. I could very well create an artificial 7x4x4 cage and you could still sneer at the fact it's not natural or wild enough.

Also going by your argument, that means I have no right to keep my cats indoors and I should let them free roam outside unsupervised. I should allow them to hunt wild animals without regard how it's effecting wildlife because hey, I'm placing their needs over my needs of being a responsible owner.

Before you say cats and snakes are two different beings, then let me point out human prisoners and snakes are also different.

Yes I think snakes benefit from enrichment without a doubt, (I myself prefer larger cages) but how are you personally measuring that? Enrichment can be achieved without requiring a 6ft plus bioative haven or palace for a snake to thrive and be happy. You can keep your snakes however you want of course, but implying other ways of keeping are inferior comes across as pretentious.

---

I dont know where you are finding this sense of superiority or achievement. Mayhaps you are confusing it with your own inferiority?
I havent sneered at anyone.
That argument is rediculous as cats are domesticated and domesticated cats are terrible for the environment.
Also i did not compare snakes to prisoners. I used that to illustrate that the 10-20 minutes of handling a few days a week does nothing for small cage quarters.

Did i say that? Did i say a palace or bioactive haven was necessary? No, in fact what i said was, the biggest and closest to the natural environment as you can afford should be your concern if you are getting a pet and not breeding stock.
You do realize this includes giving them hides, waterdishes, correct temps and humidities, correct day/night periods, etc etc? I adressed this. I also mentioned breeder racks and did not talk down or negatively about them.
I havent talked down to or negatively to anyone. It seems you are inferring an awful lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jmarshall

Figured I would mention this... when I got Damian and started posting on this forum I was told I would get more snakes. I doubted all of you but turns you guys were right (as usual). Lol. Thanks for reading!

---

Although I'm enjoying reading it, I'm staying out if the derailing debate at hand and in reply to OPs original thread simply saying...
WE TOLD YOU!!!!! ;):rofl:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

At this point I have about 60 resident ball pythons all in racks. That number will triple in the next two months when the eggs begin a hatching. Out of all the animals that have come and gone, I have only had one that I would classify as not a happy camper. He has issues that I have not gotten to the bottom of yet. For the most part, a ball python that is super active is uncomfortable, hungry, or looking for love. Snake musculature is different than a humans. They do not require exercise to maintain muscle definition. Most pythons if not all have the ability to actually "suspend" the digestive tract to the point of the organs involved actually shrinking. They are designed to chill. During fasting periods my adults very rarely do anything other than mimic rocks. Even if they are out, they will often continue to do nothing if they "feel" safe.

There is nothing wrong with providing a ball with space as long as they have a place they can hide and the environment is controllable. The boys are likely to get very entertaining for a month or so out of the year. There is also nothing wrong with racking them. They do just fine. Eat well, shed well, procreate well and knock on wood, don't get sick. Stressed out animals, including humans have the tendency to get sick. Hmmm. Most of the issues I have heard concerning balls start out with, I am keeping my animal in some giant fish aquarium and he must be happy because he is out playing all the time.

I have a single bearded dragon. He is kept totally different from my snakes. He seems to thrive on interaction and utilizes the space he has for something other than sleeping. Still not a bright animal but he is alert and appears to be able to tell people apart. He knows my wife feeds him and I don't. I would say proportionately he requires far more space than my snakes.

I don't know squat about chameleons other than I know they cannot be kept like ball pythons.

I have kept enough balls to know I wouldn't want to try bioactive with them. The poop is dog sized and when they pee, which is not often, there is a flood. Urate is no big deal.

My point is different species require different things. Some animals make good pets because their needs can be met easily. Some others cannot. My personal pet people is people that buy hunting dogs and try to turn them into house pets, but that is another story.

---

I take it you breed them?
Yes, huge dog turds and usually in a tough spot. But it is no more difficult than spot cleaning aspen or newspaper. I agree and said there was nothing wrong with racks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

I take it you breed them?
Yes, huge dog turds and usually in a tough spot. But it is no more difficult than spot cleaning aspen or newspaper. I agree and said there was nothing wrong with racks.

---

Yeah, but breeding for me to make money was something that came later. I wanted to make REL's just because I wanted one. I was doing behavioral "experiments" with spider bps. They taught me a lot about BP's in general. At some point I was breeding just to break even on my hobby. Rats alone cost me more a month than most car payments. Now breeding makes me a little extra cash. I am pretty much at my limit with the number of animals I have at this time at least until I retire.

I don't spot clean. I am on paper. It gets thrown away and everything is disinfected every time.

See what you've done Jmarshall!! Your attempt to share excitement has ruffled everybody's feathers, I hope you learn your lesson.:rofl:

Can't wait to see what you decide on next! I'm going boa for my #2. :D

Derail a thread? Me? Never. LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Derail a thread? Me? Never. LOL

---

Hmmmm, yeah, me neither....:rofl:

I was speaking hypothetically since you were making the argument that not matching the animal's native environment in the best way possible was due to the limitations of assigned human needs. You used human comfort several times as a comparison for a snake's needs in your discussion with El-Ziggy and yes, using prisoners exercises to illustrate handling still counts as a comparison otherwise why use that analogy? You often, including previous posts, used the terms "bioactive" and "best care' together hence the given impression that bioative was the standard for "best possible care". It seemed relative to the conversation since your primary argument here has been priority in mimicking the wild. However I see you were taking everything literally and personally so I apologize.


So no, I was not accusing you of anything as I made an effort to use the terms "You give the impression", "you could" "implying" "comes across as." to avoid accusation. No need to get defensive and talk down by suggesting I'm somehow subconsciously inferior by projecting myself onto you. I was open to having a discussion with you but if this is how you want the last word then it's best to put you on ignore and move on before the thread keeps getting derailed.


Have a great day!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Apiratenamedjohn

I dont know where you are finding this sense of superiority or achievement. Mayhaps you are confusing it with your own inferiority?
I havent sneered at anyone.
That argument is rediculous as cats are domesticated and domesticated cats are terrible for the environment.
Also i did not compare snakes to prisoners. I used that to illustrate that the 10-20 minutes of handling a few days a week does nothing for small cage quarters.

Did i say that? Did i say a palace or bioactive haven was necessary? No, in fact what i said was, the biggest and closest to the natural environment as you can afford should be your concern if you are getting a pet and not breeding stock.
You do realize this includes giving them hides, waterdishes, correct temps and humidities, correct day/night periods, etc etc? I adressed this. I also mentioned breeder racks and did not talk down or negatively about them.
I havent talked down to or negatively to anyone. It seems you are inferring an awful lot.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jmarshall

So... I have had my ball python for about a month and a half-ish. He's doing amazing and I love him to death. (Ate F/T for me for the first time last night!) I am planning on keeping him in a T10 which is ordered and being built. So I was thinking to myself that I'd like to get another T10 and split it up for two more snakes. I was thinking a hognose and am hoping to get suggestions for another species that would fit nicely in half of a T10. Any thoughts?

Figured I would mention this... when I got Damian and started posting on this forum I was told I would get more snakes. I doubted all of you but turns you guys were right (as usual). Lol. Thanks for reading!

---

it's official! u are now in phase 2:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/AeLeuVa.png

;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Yeah, but breeding for me to make money was something that came later. I wanted to make REL's just because I wanted one. I was doing behavioral "experiments" with spider bps. They taught me a lot about BP's in general. At some point I was breeding just to break even on my hobby. Rats alone cost me more a month than most car payments. Now breeding makes me a little extra cash. I am pretty much at my limit with the number of animals I have at this time at least until I retire.

I don't spot clean. I am on paper. It gets thrown away and everything is disinfected every time.

---

Having to do with the wobble or what kind of experiments? I am intrigued now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MissterDog

I was speaking hypothetically since you were making the argument that not matching the animal's native environment in the best way possible was due to the limitations of assigned human needs. You used human comfort several times as a comparison for a snake's needs in your discussion with El-Ziggy and yes, using prisoners exercises to illustrate handling still counts as a comparison otherwise why use that analogy? You often, including previous posts, used the terms "bioactive" and "best care' together hence the given impression that bioative was the standard for "best possible care". It seemed relative to the conversation since your primary argument here has been priority in mimicking the wild. However I see you were taking everything literally and personally so I apologize.


So no, I was not accusing you of anything as I made an effort to use the terms "You give the impression", "you could" "implying" "comes across as." to avoid accusation. No need to get defensive and talk down by suggesting I'm somehow subconsciously inferior by projecting myself onto you. I was open to having a discussion with you but if this is how you want the last word then it's best to put you on ignore and move on before the thread keeps getting derailed.


Have a great day!

---

Yes i made that argument and it is 100% true. Human needs get in the way of us immitating nature with 100% accuracy.
Analogies are used to illustrate a point by comparison. Not saying that one is the exact same as the other. But that they share commonalities enough to get the point acrossed. It seems like you got the point but are wanting to argue semantics.

As bioactive is closer to nature than aspen. i would say that it is a step in the right direction in comparison for pet ownership. But i did not disparage aspen. Everything has a time and place.

Hahaha seriously? Yeah my accused "sense of superiority and achievement" is so much different from asking if you were confusing it with a sense of inferiority on your own part. Lol call the kettle black again. Bahaha

And it seems like i am having decent discussions with others... just not you.