I have officially been bitten by the snake bug!

[redshepherd]

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

Honestly, your argument borders into animal rights arguments that deem we shouldn't keep ANY undomesticated species in captivity, because we will never be able to give them enough space. Most common snakes we keep still are relatively sedentary compared to most animals. I can call you cruel for keeping a hognose in a 10 feet enclosure, because in the wild they would have infinite feet. You're still assigning human needs.

[Apiratenamedjohn]

Define and quantify please.



What is the magic formula?



Not really. I personally will only keep animals where my needs and theirs do not collide.

What experiences are you applying to your assessments?

Good discussion if you can provide me with data I do not have. Not everything I have read has proved out to be true. Have you ever done experiments where you have kept animals in natural settings vs clinical ones and determined if it affected eating habits, growth rates, longevity, general health, or mental state?

Ok so a few of those you have taken out of context.
I dont know what you personally do. That statement was a generalization to the point that if you are doing anything other than your best to match its natural environment, you are putting your own needs first. I do this as well. My bp is in a 48" tank for now because the place i live in now is too small for something bigger. My hog started in a smaller tank with aspen too because i didnt have the time to build his viv at that point. My hog doesnt have a ramping timer yet so his day/night lights are just on/off.

I dont think there is a magic formula. I think providing the biggest environment that you can afford and maintain is the right size.

I have been keeping herps since i was a child. (Almost 30 years now) I got lucky and my mom worked at a local zoo. I started keeping and breeding veiled chameleons. I converted a 5'x3x2' dresser into a viv. The breeding pair stayed in this. It was planted had vines and hibiscus and other things in it. After the first two clutches i bought and built a a couple of growout cubbies for the babies. The ones i sold from the house stayed in bigger more natural cubbies. (Soil, plants, cuc) the ones that went to local pet stores stayed in the typical sterile breeder style cubbies. The ones that stayed in the more sterile cubbies were more easily stressed, more nervous, more prone to sickness and did not have as great an appetite and were therefore smaller on average. I might still have my notebooks on this that will have weights and dates and stuff.
I have bred and kept many different species of reptile and amphibian over the years.
Some with some weird requirements, like needing a puddle, or rainfall that is pretty accurately simulated. Either way i found the best way was to research that specific animal and try to match its environment as best i could.

I found that a regularly timed sunset/sunrise created more natural behavior in the animals. Getting up with the sun and ramping of the heat for the diurnal. Going to hide for sleep when the heat and light starts ramping for the nocturnal. Becoming active just before lights off for the nocturnal.
More actively using basking spots.
With moving water, using the water more often.

BPs are relatively new to me.
Only had mine for about a year now. He started in a 40gal breeder with me with aspen. He did not do well at all. Stressed and nervous all the time, cage aggressive, would fast frequently, poop irregularly, shed in tatters. Humidity and temps were good. He would stay in his hide all the time till i pulled him out for food. He is now in the 48" bioactive and it is a complete 180. He is active a majority of the nights of the week. The only time he doesnt eat is during shed. One piece whole sheds now. He is not cage agressive at all and now i feed him in his tank. Since i started feeding in his tank his feeding is more natural and graceful as well. He waits and ambushes when the rat goes by instead of bumbling around his feeding tank until he finds the rat.

All "data" is anectdotal at this point from keepers much older than me and like me who have kept then for a long time like this or in zoos.

As for the mental stimuli, that is provided through the viv and through the time the snake spends with you during handling and its daily experiences. There is a reason it is recommended to re-scape the viv every few months.

All these things are pretty simply googled. I found most of it while researching bioactive vivs.

[Apiratenamedjohn]

Honestly, your argument borders into animal rights arguments that deem we shouldn't keep ANY undomesticated species in captivity, because we will never be able to give them enough space. Most common snakes we keep still are relatively sedentary compared to most animals. I can call you cruel for keeping a hognose in a 10 feet enclosure, because in the wild they would have infinite feet. You're still assigning human needs.

Hahaha at no point did i say anyone shouldnt keep these animals or that i dont also put some human needs first. The viv is in my house so naturally this will occur.
I am saying that if you are getting the animal as a pet, shouldnt your first concern be to provide the best environment you possibly can?
Like when people say "i know "X" size is better but will "x" size work?"
That is why i said it all depends on why you have the animal, breeding, or pet?
Clearly the reason for keeping the animal dictates the way you keep it. I thought i had made it clear that i understood that in the first post.

[MissterDog]

I am assigning no such thing. Those are all the needs of the animal. Now can you point out where i have assigned human needs?

Snakes need mental stimuli. Snakes need a suitable environment. (Meaning size as well)
In fact, if you are doing anything else other than trying to match the animals native environment as best you can, you are the one attempting to assign human needs. You need it in a small cage, you need it on a substrate easier for you to clean, you need it to eat f/t, etc etc.

Hahaha at no point did i say anyone shouldnt keep these animals or that i dont also put some human needs first. The viv is in my house so naturally this will occur.
I am saying that if you are getting the animal as a pet, shouldnt your first concern be to provide the best environment you possibly can?
Like when people say "i know "X" size is better but will "x" size work?"
That is why i said it all depends on why you have the animal, breeding, or pet?
Clearly the reason for keeping the animal dictates the way you keep it. I thought i had made it clear that i understood that in the first post.

You give the impression you're enforcing your own personal ideals on how a species should thrive as a new standard. It could be argued your human assigning is the desire to go over and beyond for your own sense of achievement and superiority while the snake doesn't actually need as much as you are projecting.

By your augment, I'm assigning my human needs over my snake by not choosing a bioactive enclosure for my current or future snakes. I could very well create an artificial 7x4x4 cage and you could still sneer at the fact it's not natural or wild enough.

Also going by your argument, that means I have no right to keep my cats indoors and I should let them free roam outside unsupervised. I should allow them to hunt wild animals without regard how it's effecting wildlife because hey, I'm placing their needs over my needs of being a responsible owner.

Before you say cats and snakes are two different beings, then let me point out human prisoners and snakes are also different.

Yes I think snakes benefit from enrichment without a doubt, (I myself prefer larger cages) but how are you personally measuring that? Enrichment can be achieved without requiring a 6ft plus bioative haven or palace for a snake to thrive and be happy. You can keep your snakes however you want of course, but implying other ways of keeping are inferior comes across as pretentious.

[JodanOrNoDan]

At this point I have about 60 resident ball pythons all in racks. That number will triple in the next two months when the eggs begin a hatching. Out of all the animals that have come and gone, I have only had one that I would classify as not a happy camper. He has issues that I have not gotten to the bottom of yet. For the most part, a ball python that is super active is uncomfortable, hungry, or looking for love. Snake musculature is different than a humans. They do not require exercise to maintain muscle definition. Most pythons if not all have the ability to actually "suspend" the digestive tract to the point of the organs involved actually shrinking. They are designed to chill. During fasting periods my adults very rarely do anything other than mimic rocks. Even if they are out, they will often continue to do nothing if they "feel" safe.

There is nothing wrong with providing a ball with space as long as they have a place they can hide and the environment is controllable. The boys are likely to get very entertaining for a month or so out of the year. There is also nothing wrong with racking them. They do just fine. Eat well, shed well, procreate well and knock on wood, don't get sick. Stressed out animals, including humans have the tendency to get sick. Hmmm. Most of the issues I have heard concerning balls start out with, I am keeping my animal in some giant fish aquarium and he must be happy because he is out playing all the time.

I have a single bearded dragon. He is kept totally different from my snakes. He seems to thrive on interaction and utilizes the space he has for something other than sleeping. Still not a bright animal but he is alert and appears to be able to tell people apart. He knows my wife feeds him and I don't. I would say proportionately he requires far more space than my snakes.

I don't know squat about chameleons other than I know they cannot be kept like ball pythons.

I have kept enough balls to know I wouldn't want to try bioactive with them. The poop is dog sized and when they pee, which is not often, there is a flood. Urate is no big deal.

My point is different species require different things. Some animals make good pets because their needs can be met easily. Some others cannot. My personal pet people is people that buy hunting dogs and try to turn them into house pets, but that is another story.

[Apiratenamedjohn]

You give the impression you're enforcing your own personal ideals on how a species should thrive as a new standard. It could be argued your human assigning is the desire to go over and beyond for your own sense of achievement and superiority while the snake doesn't actually need as much as you are projecting.

By your augment, I'm assigning my human needs over my snake by not choosing a bioactive enclosure for my current or future snakes. I could very well create an artificial 7x4x4 cage and you could still sneer at the fact it's not natural or wild enough.

Also going by your argument, that means I have no right to keep my cats indoors and I should let them free roam outside unsupervised. I should allow them to hunt wild animals without regard how it's effecting wildlife because hey, I'm placing their needs over my needs of being a responsible owner.

Before you say cats and snakes are two different beings, then let me point out human prisoners and snakes are also different.

Yes I think snakes benefit from enrichment without a doubt, (I myself prefer larger cages) but how are you personally measuring that? Enrichment can be achieved without requiring a 6ft plus bioative haven or palace for a snake to thrive and be happy. You can keep your snakes however you want of course, but implying other ways of keeping are inferior comes across as pretentious.

I dont know where you are finding this sense of superiority or achievement. Mayhaps you are confusing it with your own inferiority?
I havent sneered at anyone.
That argument is rediculous as cats are domesticated and domesticated cats are terrible for the environment.
Also i did not compare snakes to prisoners. I used that to illustrate that the 10-20 minutes of handling a few days a week does nothing for small cage quarters.

Did i say that? Did i say a palace or bioactive haven was necessary? No, in fact what i said was, the biggest and closest to the natural environment as you can afford should be your concern if you are getting a pet and not breeding stock.
You do realize this includes giving them hides, waterdishes, correct temps and humidities, correct day/night periods, etc etc? I adressed this. I also mentioned breeder racks and did not talk down or negatively about them.
I havent talked down to or negatively to anyone. It seems you are inferring an awful lot.

[Craiga 01453]

Figured I would mention this... when I got Damian and started posting on this forum I was told I would get more snakes. I doubted all of you but turns you guys were right (as usual). Lol. Thanks for reading!

Although I'm enjoying reading it, I'm staying out if the derailing debate at hand and in reply to OPs original thread simply saying...
WE TOLD YOU!!!!!

[Apiratenamedjohn]

At this point I have about 60 resident ball pythons all in racks. That number will triple in the next two months when the eggs begin a hatching. Out of all the animals that have come and gone, I have only had one that I would classify as not a happy camper. He has issues that I have not gotten to the bottom of yet. For the most part, a ball python that is super active is uncomfortable, hungry, or looking for love. Snake musculature is different than a humans. They do not require exercise to maintain muscle definition. Most pythons if not all have the ability to actually "suspend" the digestive tract to the point of the organs involved actually shrinking. They are designed to chill. During fasting periods my adults very rarely do anything other than mimic rocks. Even if they are out, they will often continue to do nothing if they "feel" safe.

There is nothing wrong with providing a ball with space as long as they have a place they can hide and the environment is controllable. The boys are likely to get very entertaining for a month or so out of the year. There is also nothing wrong with racking them. They do just fine. Eat well, shed well, procreate well and knock on wood, don't get sick. Stressed out animals, including humans have the tendency to get sick. Hmmm. Most of the issues I have heard concerning balls start out with, I am keeping my animal in some giant fish aquarium and he must be happy because he is out playing all the time.

I have a single bearded dragon. He is kept totally different from my snakes. He seems to thrive on interaction and utilizes the space he has for something other than sleeping. Still not a bright animal but he is alert and appears to be able to tell people apart. He knows my wife feeds him and I don't. I would say proportionately he requires far more space than my snakes.

I don't know squat about chameleons other than I know they cannot be kept like ball pythons.

I have kept enough balls to know I wouldn't want to try bioactive with them. The poop is dog sized and when they pee, which is not often, there is a flood. Urate is no big deal.

My point is different species require different things. Some animals make good pets because their needs can be met easily. Some others cannot. My personal pet people is people that buy hunting dogs and try to turn them into house pets, but that is another story.

I take it you breed them?
Yes, huge dog turds and usually in a tough spot. But it is no more difficult than spot cleaning aspen or newspaper. I agree and said there was nothing wrong with racks.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I take it you breed them?
Yes, huge dog turds and usually in a tough spot. But it is no more difficult than spot cleaning aspen or newspaper. I agree and said there was nothing wrong with racks.

Yeah, but breeding for me to make money was something that came later. I wanted to make REL's just because I wanted one. I was doing behavioral "experiments" with spider bps. They taught me a lot about BP's in general. At some point I was breeding just to break even on my hobby. Rats alone cost me more a month than most car payments. Now breeding makes me a little extra cash. I am pretty much at my limit with the number of animals I have at this time at least until I retire.

I don't spot clean. I am on paper. It gets thrown away and everything is disinfected every time.

[hilabeans]

See what you've done Jmarshall!! Your attempt to share excitement has ruffled everybody's feathers, I hope you learn your lesson.

Can't wait to see what you decide on next! I'm going boa for my #2.