Need to vent....

First and foremost I want to say this is not about new snake owners coming in here. Not at all. Onto my vent...

i am seeing so many new snake owners posting their snakes were on pinkies, fuzzies or even hoppers from the breeder before they were shipped. Why on earth are they on food so small. And quite frankly I'm tired of reading it. Again...this is not against the new snake parent. You guys have no idea the food is too small until we point it out. It seems like every new post is my snake was fed (insert to small of prey here) before being sent to me.

How can someone breeding and selling snakes not have the common knowledge as to what to feed their snakes. Drives me crazy and well I don't know what to do about it.

There are some breeders who maintenance feed their babies to save $$$, so they will feed pinky and fuzzy rats to hatchling BP's. They babies grow, but not fast, and can be kept in smaller tubs for a longer period of time.

I don't agree with the practice.

In all fairness, most of the times when I read about these issues, the snakes were purchased from pet store chains. Oftentimes the sales associates are there "to do their job/make money" and have only the slightest of clue of how any of the animals they sell are to be taken care off, esp. the animals that aren't as common as puppies or kittens.

As to breeders selling snakes that aren't fed correctly. Well, just about "anyone" can become a breeder. So I would differentiate between Billy Bob breeding and selling a few snakes that he got into, and a reputable breeder. Reputable doesn't always mean "for profit" or "big scale". It simply means someone that makes the animals a priority. Trying to own/breed and sell quality animals. Someone that does this "right".

When we are talking about pinks and fuzzies for Ball Python hatchlings, it makes a difference whether they are rats or mice. Rat pinks could very well be a appropriate size for some BP hatchlings. So are rat fuzzies. Some hatchlings are smaller, some bigger.

A reputable breeder would feed the correct sized rodent and tell the seller what he was feeding. They should probably also mention WHEN to go up in rodent size. But then again...most might just assume a buyer knows that very basic fact.

I guess there are good breeders and bad. Prepared buyers and not so prepared. New owners that research before and during getting a new animals, and others that take what knowledge were shared at the sale and leave it at that.

All you can do, is share knowledge with the ones that seek it. Every newbie that is being helped, is one more animal that is better off then it was before. :)

I walk away from a lot of posts before i snap. Some of the things just blow me away. I wouldn't give some of these clowns a Ant Farm let alone some of the breeders online. I made a thread like this a last year in the "Off Topic Cafe " so i could vent about all this kinda bologna.


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Ya, I left out box stores because well..ya. And you're right back farm breeders and reputable breeders are different. It just seems like there are two to three new posts a day about snakes being fed the wrong size and they are coming from people not box stores. This is why I am adamant at work about proper size education. I want to hunt these breeders down and smack them in the face with an adult mouse! Gah!

Feed 'em giant rats, they will love you. :taz:

Just curious what do you guys start on? Hoppers, adult mice, rat pups? And what's your guys take on multiple small items for the myth for faster digestion.

BP babies right out of the egg eat hoppers for 3-5 meals then go right into adult mice. Why don't people know this. And by people, I mean breeders.

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Originally Posted by Ericballardo

Just curious what do you guys start on? Hoppers, adult mice, rat pups? And what's your guys take on multiple small items for the myth for faster digestion.

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I breed Rats so if i have to many and need to downsize I give my big girl 3-4 weaned each week instead of a bigger one.. Nothing wrong with that at all.. Every couple months I do that for a couple week to keep the population down.


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When I started with ball pythons I was feeding small meals, to a beginner its hard to believe that a snake with such a small head could eat such a large rodent, it almost is too amazing to believe. I think that's where the new keeper gets confused, they feed based on the size of the head of the snake instead of the size of the girth at the widest part of the body. Until you actually see a snake eat a large rat for the first time you probably wouldn't believe it.

I have a hard time with anybody being ill prepared when bringing their new animals home. The internet is LITERALLY at almost everybody's fingertips, as I type this on my phone. It takes a matter of SECONDS to do at least a quick internet search. There really is no excuse anymore for not be prepared and properly educated before bringing a LIVING being home.

I can't understand how people can say things like "I went in for dog food and came out with a snake". I mean, it's not the same as going to Wal-Mart for a few odds and ends and walking out with a tv. And then they wonder "why is my snake not eating?" or "why does my snake look skinny?" after taking the word of an under qualified employee. Really? You just listen to what one person says and take that as gospel?

Bottom line: the responsibility belongs to the person bringing the animal home.

And to follow up on cchardwick's point about newbies being surprised by the size of prey a snake can eat...yes it's surprising and awe-inspiring. But again, in today's day and age, it's easy enough to Google or watch on YouTube and see before buying.

There is nothing wrong with starting a hatchling on rats right away..if they take it !! A rat pink is far bigger then a mouse pink.

So I can absolutely see a breeder feeding rat pinks/fuzzies to a BP hatchling.

We hear of buyers that have several months old BP's complain of them not growing. When asked, they feed food that is MUCH to small. Saying something like "the breeder told me it was feeding on rat pinks/fuzzies, mouse hoppers". Well, that is probably because the hatchling WAS feeding on that, and quite appropriately so at that time.

Perhaps those breeders/sellers didn't go on to mention that you have to actually GO UP in size as time goes by and weight goes up. Honestly, when I placed my hatchlings I made sure to mention (and I give out records) what they are feeding on, but I'm not sure if I actually told buyers to go up in food size eventually. I guess I just assumed they knew that. I did ask a few questions and I got a "feel" for the buyers/takers and none were "total" beginners, though.

So while I feel there should be some responsibility with the breeder/seller, there should also absolutely be responsibility with the buyer !!! At the very least, you should know the very basic requirements of the animal you buy/take.

That said, I would never "shame" a newbie coming here and asking for info/help. At least they are here trying to find out what they did wrong. For every one that does come here and ask for help, there are probably 50 others that just keep on neglecting their snake. True, they should have learned those facts beforehand, but then again, better late then never..

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

I breed Rats so if i have to many and need to downsize I give my big girl 3-4 weaned each week instead of a bigger one.. Nothing wrong with that at all.. Every couple months I do that for a couple week to keep the population down.


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No I get that too. And I do that at work if I run out of adult mice i weigh hoppers to equal an adult mouse weight so they still get the correct amount.

I'm not shaming the new beep owners. They are here to learn and we help them. When I brought home boople I knew what her weight was at, and what she was currently eating whether it was live or frozen. I would not have got her if she was on live. I didn't want that problem. These are basic knowledge everyone should have. I'm going to print the feeding charts and hand them out to new snake owners at work.

I've only had one instance of purchasing a snake that was "maintanance fed". The seller didn't state that, but when I got the snake (a CA motley male boa) he was very lean...and not "loaf shaped" like boas should be. He also had muscle weakness as well, which I attributed to a combination of too little food, probably very small tub size, and his motley mutation which some breeders told me can prevent the snake from holding muscle tone as well.

Other than that, all the snakes I've purchased have been on appropriately sized feeders and appeared to be of a healthy weight.

I think that a lot of the responsibility falls on the buyer. I know that when I purchased my first snake, I asked not only what it was feeding on, but what the next size up would be, etc. I would agree with an earlier post that many times the breeder just assumes that you will know when to upgrade in feeder size.

When I breed, I plan on typing up a general care guidelines sheet and list things like feeder size and places to order feeders from, etc. Although that may be overkill, I think it would be helpful to send it to new buyers in email or folded inside the shipping box.

I will finally be receiving my new pair of 25% Kalatoa Super Dwarf Retics tomorrow morning and I asked the breeder what size prey they're currently eating. He said they are currently eating rat pups or small mice and these guys will be 1 year old in April and May and I can tell from the photos he sent me that they are very skinny. I want to try to keep their sizes manageable, but at the same time I don't want them to be skinny and I really don't want it to take 4 more years to get them up to breeding size, so i'm definitely going to have to be making some prey size and feeding schedule decisions...

I would ask why he is under feeding them?

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Originally Posted by Aedryan Methyus

I will finally be receiving my new pair of 25% Kalatoa Super Dwarf Retics tomorrow morning and I asked the breeder what size prey they're currently eating. He said they are currently eating rat pups or small mice and these guys will be 1 year old in April and May and I can tell from the photos he sent me that they are very skinny. I want to try to keep their sizes manageable, but at the same time I don't want them to be skinny and I really don't want it to take 4 more years to get them up to breeding size, so i'm definitely going to have to be making some prey size and feeding schedule decisions...

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Hmm.. I'd say they should probably be on the same feeding routine as their mainland cousins, just smaller prey (similar in width to body girth). I think young retics typically eat every 5-7 days.

I think many of the people breeding SD/ D retics under-feed to keep them smaller longer. I know there are some people that say to do the same with mainlands. IMO, that is just cruelty when done to keep the snake smaller in size. Plus, many retics will push and ruin their faces when not fed properly.

I hope you can get them well-started and on a correct feeding schedule. I'd also be interested in asking the breeder why he is under-feeding. :/ I think with my CA motley male boa, he was underfed to use less food / $$ and be kept in a smaller tub size until sold.

What? You have to feed them? :rolleyes:

Food is always the number one issue and has been for the past 12 years I have been on here, from not eating to too small, to too big and it comes down to RESEARCH, I understand you can't know everything but those to me are the basic requirements when it comes to buying a new animal, sadly if people do not research a dog breed and see if it is suited for them are they really gonna research snakes and proper diet and understanding of metabolism :confusd:

Some people do those research but do them in the wrong places (like pet stores) or Facebook, sometimes you just have to question everything , and pick the brain of people that you know have experience.

Maintenance feeding is not new either especially from large scale breeders, I can say that every animal I bought from a large scale breeder was maintenance fed and small compare to stuff I produce that were younger (and I do not overfeed because I do not believe in getting them big as fast as possible either).......I have said it before there is a just a middle.

Anyway same problem it was a decade ago and it will continue when really all you have to do is reach out to a breeder or someone with knowledge (not all will answer but some will) and pick their brain.

I start my BP hatchlings on rat pinks. I think they put out a great heat signature, they wriggle in a nonthreatening way and I rarely ever have to offer anything else for the first two feedings to get hatchlings to eat.

Of course you'd move up in size but also remember that a new owner often mis-hears stuff or asked someone else, or thought "mice" instead of "rat". Or the breeder didn't want the new owner to over feed the snake to begin with, and recommended a smaller size. Or what a breeder considers a 'weanling' is smaller or larger than what someone else considers a "weanling" and so on.

Sure, in a lot of cases, it's literally a lack of research or a seller telling the owner a small prey item because they maintenance feed. But it's not always. The people who owned one of my monitor lizards were feeding him a hopper mouse once a week because way back 7 years before when they got him, they were told he should eat a hopper mouse.

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

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Our analyses show that contemporaneous levels of food supply influenced growth rates of pythons, but only to about the same degree as levels of food availability earlier in the individual's life. Thus, an animal's body size reflected not only its age, sex and current feeding rate, but was also a function of the nutritional environment that the animal experienced in the past. Importantly, the way that current levels of prey availability influenced current levels of growth was itself modified by the animal's early growth history. The end result is that the variation in growth rates that was engendered among cohorts of yearling pythons persisted throughout the life of the snakes. We do not know the mechanism by which this ‘silver spoon’ effect occurs, but our data show that the rate at which a python grows is determined not only by its current feeding rate, but also by the nutritional environment that it encountered in its first year of life.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

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Wow! That is interesting and SO important to a serious snake Keeper/breeder.

thank you SO much for sharing this. This is going to majorly influence which breeders I buy from and which breeders I avoid. I prefer bigger pythons. So i am going to avoid the Many, Many breeders that practice the “keep em small” to save space and food. screw that!

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

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Thats interesting, considering the fact I have heard keepers (my self included) for the last 30 years talk about how you can regulate feeding for giant snakes in particular (as I have) to keep the growth rate slower without any ill effects.... Hmmmm..


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I think the whole "maintenance feeding" thing is completely open to interpretation !!

For one, I myself always practiced what I consider maintenance feeding. To me, that is not even close to "starvation diet" and "stunting" animals.
It is simply the opposite of "power feeding" which is all to often done in this hobby, where "numbers" play such a role. How many grams in how many month, how many month, before breeding size, breed sooner then later, so power feed to accomplish that.

To me, that is FAR more detrimental to any animals long term health, it is simply common sense. Any species has been found to have nothing but negative results from feeding to much/growing to fast.

To me, maintenance feeding simply means not to push an animals growth. I'm pretty sure in the wild, most of these animals often get even less food then what we consider maintenance feeding. Yet, they thrive. They may grow SLOWER, but grow, they do. And if given time, they grow BIG.
But this is exactly the point. In this hobby, "who has time" ??

Oh no, every year any given morph "looses value" as more people produce it. So the race is always on. Each year you "wait" is a potential loss in profits.

I bought 5 hatchlings in 2010. All of which were fed quite conservatively as I had ZERO interest in breeding at that time, even though they were nice morphs and gorgeous animals. I actually WANTED them to grow slow, safe, nice and even. Does that mean I STARVED them to make them fit in smaller containers ?? Of course not. But they grew quite a bit slower then what I see many people push on those animals. Yet...all 5 got to be very big snakes. All 5 were never sick. All 5 retained their coloration nicely into adulthood. All 5 are gorgeous animals. Not a stunted one there.

Are there breeders that put animals on a starvation diet (meaning just enough food to sustain life, but no growth) ? I'm sure there are. But I do not see that as the same as maintenance fed, were you simply don't push as much food as they will take, which results in rapid growth.

I much rather buy from a reputable breeder that takes pride in his / her animals, who consistently produce quality animals, but they may not be 500 gr at 5 month old. Rather that, then from a breeder that is all about "growth". Growth in profits, snakes, push push, to the point some breeder animals regurge several times yet food is still pushed.

There isn't just black and white, there is a whole lot of grey in between, and we can't just push everyone either left or right.

I myself have 4 animals from a breeder that someone who likes to powerfeed complained about. Saying he got a "small for age" animal. All mine were not "small". They would have been bigger if pushed with food, but guess what, a few month later, still fed conservatively (enough, not pushing though) and they are growing beautifully and are prized animals in my collection.

I also have seen animals introduced in the picture section, from breeders that many here buy from and respect, that were obviously "maintenance fed" (and NOT in a bad way). Garrick comes to mind. Gorgeous male snake, not quite a year old and even smaller then the snake someone else complained about being to small for the age. Gorgeous, healthy animal that seems to grow and thrive quite nicely.

In the end, to each their own. There are many factors that are important to me when choosing a breeder. Someone that consistently produces and sends out healthy, gorgeous animals . Someone with a good reputation. Good customer service.

Feeding to little is absolutely a terrible thing. To me, feeding to much (and the reasons why) are just as bad. There is a lot in between there, and "maintenance fed" is just a expression that can mean different things to different people.

In my humble opinion.

I disagree Zina. SO many breeders these days practically starve their hatchlings, as I am constantly shocked at their weight compared their age. Snakes that are a year old, that weigh as much as a typical 6 month old. I have seen many subadult snakes on morph market that are very, very small for their age. I want bigger snakes, and the published article above, shows that this “maintenance feeding” stunts their growth for life!

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

I disagree Zina. SO many breeders these days practically starve their hatchlings, as I am constantly shocked at their weight compared their age. Snakes that are a year old, that weigh as much as a typical 6 month old. I have seen many subadult snakes on morph market that are very, very small for their age. I want bigger snakes, and the published article above, shows that this “maintenance feeding” stunts their growth for life!

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That is not how I read it.

Starving an animal stunts it for life. Maintenance feeding is not starving an animal. Some people may use that expression, but actually starve their animals. Others, like I, use that expression to feed conservatively. Which is probably far closer to what their diet is in the wild. Growing slower is not the same as being starved to the point of being stunted. Growing at a normal rate would look like a "slow rate" to someone that likes to powerfeed and push food to grow them fast.

My male Jag was what "I" consider maintenance fed most of his life. Never pushed or hurried. Here he is, at 8 years old and 3000 gr. Not an ounce of that jiggly fat, either...

What I'm shocked at, is how some people push the animals to grow them rapidly, either for breeding, or because they want them big/fast. They will STILL grow to their genetically pre disposed age if they are grown slower/normal. It may take longer, but imho it is the better/safer way.

But I don't expect people to agree with me, just voicing "my" opinion and experiences ;)

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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Exactly. What many breeders call “maintenance feeding” isn’t the healthy balanced feeding that Zina rightly advocates. I agree with her as her use of the term. But the articles is more pointing out the practice of under feeding growing “children” snakes and that it has long term consequences.

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Originally Posted by Godzilla78

Exactly. What many breeders call “maintenance feeding” isn’t the healthy balanced feeding that Zina rightly advocates. I agree with her as her use of the term. But the articles is more pointing out the practice of under feeding growing “children” snakes and that it has long term consequences.

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Thats how i took it too.. Under feeding during a crucial time.
I think Zina does things very meticulously for her snakes & healthy and i think the study was just about not feeding well when its needed the most and the outcome of that.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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No, I think that is exactly what one should do. Use some common sense, coupled with some sound research. Good nutrition when young is absolutely vital. Starvation during young years can cause one to be stunted.

But...

There is also a plethora of evidence just how detrimental it is to PUSH growth, to hurry it, to "power" feed. All across different species it has been proven to be unhealthy to overeat. In so many ways.
In many animals pushing food pushes "size". Usually there is a reason. We push food animals, because the quicker they grow and the bigger, the more profit. We push some companion animals, because we always want the extraordinary...Super monster big large breed puppies. Ultra teeny tiny teacup puppies.

You see it with dogs very often. "oversized" this and "oversized" that. People posting about the weight of their pup, pushing the food, wanting that 12 week old 60 pound "monster" puppy.

Sad thing is, that pup will still only grow to the size it was genetically meant to be. But it will reach that size far quicker. Often ligaments and skeletal growth cannot keep up and you run into all kinds of problems that will haunt the animal (and owner) later on. Organs are also affected negatively by being grown to quickly.

Now, I know snakes aren't dogs, cats or cattle. Of course not. But that is also why you don't see the negative impact as readily. Snakes don't "limp". They don't whine. And often they aren't kept long enough to notice the bad effects. Although some research has been done into the negative effect of power feeding and causing rapid growth.

I think everyone has to decide for themselves and I don't want to push my opinion on others.

I just want to point out that maintenance feeding is just an expression and doesn't stand for starvation diet. Starvation diet is what causes stunted growth. Animals on a starvation diet have a certain look about them. Unhealthy, weird proportions, bones showing. I have seen many young snakes that may have been smaller then heavily fed ones at the same age, but they looked plump and healthy and grew absolutely normal. To me personally that means we probably just feed a lot heavier then what a "normal" diet would be expected. And NOT feeding heavily is not the same as starving them to the point of staying stunted.

Good nutrition when young is not the same as over fed or heavily fed when young.

I think I have explained my point as far as I can (given English is my second language), though. I don't agree with starving a hatchling. I don't see maintenance feeding as being the same as under feeding. I see power feeding as worse then maintenance feeding.

But again ALL these expressions (power feeding, maintenance feeding, under and over feeding) are all up to interpretation and may mean different things to different people. I guess we can all agree we want our animals healthy, happy and safe. And we all love those noodles ;)

And I want to apologize if I'm a little TO into all this today. I'm going to take a step back...

What I've experienced today is not meant as an excuse, but more as a explanation..

I've seen the two "extremes" in horses and today I've seen the worst of both of it. Couple 5 year old horses of a former acquaintance. Sent to slaughter cause they were "done" at that age. They are grown SUPER fast with dense concentrates, pushed so they win shows very young. Usually get joint injections at 2 to 3 years old because already they are breaking down. Skeletal, ligament and joints don't hold up. But its rather normal and expected. They get replaced rapidly. I helped pull one of them out of his mother years ago..

On the way to take care of my horse I notice a emaciated horse down in a nearby field. Sadly, you see skinny ones very often around here. No one cares, no one comes out if you call it in. I turned around and drove by again, she is still down, no movement, thinking that horse is dead..I turn around again and drive by one more time (there was nowhere to stop there) and she lifts a head, gets on her chest and turns around to look at me. But she looks bad. I'm in a hurry but make a point with myself to check on her on the way back. I drive back home not 2 hours later to see a backhoe in that field, the arm of it up high and the white skinny mare HANGING IN THE AIR by her neck. I suppose they shot her, dug a hole and were moving her as I drove by, why they had to raise her up in the air rather then just to drag her, I don't know. But it keeps haunting me. The way she looked at me earlier. And then the sight as I drove by. Now I wish I had stopped, wish I had gotten someone to go check on her. Although they probably killed her shortly after I drove past and at least I wasn't there for that.

There is a lot we don't know about the snakes system. How its affected by over feeding. Under feeding is easier to see...stunted, bony, starved. Overfed and grown to fast just looks like a big snake. But to me, common sense dictates that neither extreme is a good thing for long term health and soundness.

So, apologies for going off on a tangent and apologies for going "off topic" ..

All good points I agree Lucy.. And as you said all these terms kinda get into the way of how each of us understands whats starving, maintenance, power feeding etc..
Your right about overfeeding. Ive even had trouble with my male Dog growing to fast and his tendons/joints etc giving him trouble as a puppy.



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New to this thread, but as a non-breeder, 3 snake family, who has kept snakes for more than half my life (now 37 years old), and keeps three different species, it can be confusing and much is open to interpretation.

So much depends on interpretation and applying X rule to one species, may not work for another species.

I get why everyone is so excited about this thread.

My BCI, for example, Behira, is a 1 1/2 year old female, and I already have her on smaller meals than she could easily take, every two weeks (she is about 700G and I feed about 60G small rats now, give or take). My BP at 700G was still being offered every week, but was starting to regulate herself, or so it seemed, by refusing every 3 times or so.

My Corn, could easily eat a weaned rat, or bigger, at 640G, but I keep him on 30G mice every week. Rats are not normal food for corns and they can get fat easy, so smaller meals more frequently work for them.

Anyway, the point is, I had to do a lot of research on both what to and how often to feed everyone, who to listen to, and what breeder(s) to buy from.

I tend to believe for an adult snake, less (either size or frequency) is more, assuming they are healthy and maintaining weight. That does seem to be true, to me anyway.

I do not think this applies to young snakes who are still growing, or at least not to the same degree. A growing animal needs to eat enough to continue to grow at a good rate. Of course "good rate" is open to interpretation.

Jeff Ronne documented feeding BCI's a large meal every week, or more, essentially power feeding, to get them full grown and ready to breed fast. If I recall, none, if only a few maybe, lived to be 5!

Apparently their organs could not grow as fast as their bodies.

But that's BCI's. I have heard of breeders getting corn snakes up to size quickly and they do not seem to do as badly.

In the wild, the snakes that do survive, feed opportunistically, not regularly. They breed. That tells me that in general, again, less is more. It's not like nature is saying okay, this 3 year old female is going to need a rat that's 100G, etc.

Not that we should mimic nature at home. We have an opportunity as keepers and breeders to give optimal care to our animals.

Bottom line: Research, research, research. Not just your species, but breeders, and know who you are getting advice from. Knowledge is power.

Just to clarify my position, all my posts in this thread are in regard to feeding baby growing snakes. I feed adults less frequently and smaller meals relative to their body size, which is healthy maintenance..
when I said”maintenance feeding”, I was using the term the way breeders use it when they are basically starving baby snakes so they don’t grow too fast, and thus purposely stunting their growth.

REAL maintenance feeding as Zina and other very intelligent, experienced keepers here advocate, is very smart to do for mature snakes. “Maintenance feeding” a small, young snake is borderline animal abuse imo. Even if it isn’t really that unhealthy, I still personally like thriving, healthy large mature adults. And the above posted article demonstrates an idea that this kind of practice of undergeeding hatchlings not only temporarily stunts growth of juvenile growing snakes, but has long term metabolic consequences.

Wow, this thread took off. Lol. I agree with both sides. Under feeding is just as bad as over feeding. They both have consequences in the long term.

Thanks for the adult discussion.

Since the name of this thread is need to vent I think it should go into the Cafe and become a place where we cam all Fly Off The Handle about all the dumb crap we hear on here everyday hahahahahahaha. Like how you spend hours/days helping someone but they are their own worst enemy and nothing you do or say will help them because you cant fix stupid hahhaha


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Originally Posted by CALM Pythons

Since the name of this thread is need to vent I think it should go into the Cafe and become a place where we cam all Fly Off The Handle about all the dumb crap we hear on here everyday hahahahahahaha. Like how you spend hours/days helping someone but they are their own worst enemy and nothing you do or say will help them because you cant fix stupid hahhaha


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CALMPythons, "Amen."

Half of the posts I don't even bother. Take 5 minutes and read the care sheet, a few posts, etc.

Then, try to use the knowledge and apply it, and learn it. That way you can use common sense to an extent. I am no expert, but I've learned enough over the years so that I can give advice on things I know.

However, many people mean well and want what's best for their animals. I am happy to help those people.

Hate to admit to being selective, but time is limited.

Yeah I made a thread in the Cafe (quarantine room) a month ago complaining up a storm lol.


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IMO...

Maintenance feeding is feeding just enough so the snake maintains it's state, not an amount for healthy growth.

Normal diet would be enough feeding for the snake to grow at a moderate rate.

Overfeeding would be a diet that results in overweight snakes or rapid growth.


Obviously, underfeeding or overfeeding are both bad.

Contrary to the study, I have seen quite a few reptiles, BPs included that were starved looking when bought, that jumped up in growth once fed a healthy diet rate. Once you feed them correctly, they seemed to catch up quite easily to snakes that were fed a normal diet their entire lives.

Is that empirical evidence? Yes.

But the original post was about new owners underfeeding snakes and how bad they are for doing so and/or how bad the breeders are for telling the new owners to underfeed. My post was pointing out that often what the new owner 'hears' or 'remembers" is totally different from what they're told. I get it all the time from people in various fields. You can say outright "You have to push the red button twice" and they'll push the blue button once and say "I did exactly what you told me to!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

But the original post was about new owners underfeeding snakes and how bad they are for doing so and/or how bad the breeders are for telling the new owners to underfeed. My post was pointing out that often what the new owner 'hears' or 'remembers" is totally different from what they're told. I get it all the time from people in various fields. You can say outright "You have to push the red button twice" and they'll push the blue button once and say "I did exactly what you told me to!"

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No I explicitly said this is NOT about new snake owners! They were given wrong information from the breeder to feed smaller size than what the snake should normally be on. I also have new snake owners that come to me and when I ask, how much does your snake weigh at the time of purchase, they don't know because the breeder/seller didn't give that info. Or was the snake fed on live or frozen? They didn't tell me. How big were they feeding at the time of sale? Don't know. Pick up the phone right now and get that info. You have to know. And while owners should know....it's always on a seller to give out this info. It's just good business practice. It's a no brainier. And yes, I distinguish between reputable breeders over just sellers that people are buying snakes from in my area.

I am more alarmed by the absolutes that seem to fly around here and other places about feeding prey size and weight alone.

The deliberate starvation that big chain stores does is animal cruelty and should be called out as such. I don't know a single reputable and long term breeder that would ever put a sub adult snake on a substandard feeding routine so any breeder that does that is either woefully ignorant about their collection or downright despicable and should not keep or sell snakes. I think there needs to be more emphasis on "don't buy from a big chain store ever" and more steering people away from inexperienced breeders that have no business selling snakes than criticizing new owners for poor decision making skills.

Back on my disagreement about feeding regiments. Each snake is different but each snake should be fed the minimum to keep them healthy once an adult and the maximum to keep them growing yet not overweight as a juvenile. No more no less. I no longer feed any of my snakes on a set schedule except my GTP due to it being under medical care right now and needing the schedule for treatment.

My Rosy boa is growing like mad now that I upscaled food but he is also robust enough that he does not need a weekly set amount like clockwork to keep him growing. My BP is off food for a month an a half now because he wants to be and because I fed him well enough during the normal season he would not suffer from a fast.

I think we all need to stop this asinine 10-15% body weight food size shenanigans and become more advanced and instead promote the advocacy of weighing a growing snake on a regular basis and ensure they put on a set amount of grams based on their species and age. One snake may grow just enough on 15% but another of the same species might get fat and unhealthy doing the same. Demanding prey size also confuses new owners because they then scramble for that prey size quickly learning no two mice/rats are the same. Insisting on snake weight measuring allows for more flexible prey options (multiple feedings, small then large alternating, different feeding schedules, etc).

So my view is tell new owners to weight their snake after every 2-3 feedings and as a young snake grows, target something along the lines of say 10% body mass growth per weigh in period instead of prey size advice. We should also promote the weaning quickly off of pinky mice or rats as neither are nutritionally complete for minerals or protein and are far too high in fat. They are good for newborn smaller species like corn snakes to get them up to a larger prey asap but should be advocated against for ball pythons and larger species as they are just garbage bags of fat and gelatinous ooze.