Need to vent....

[zina10]

And I want to apologize if I'm a little TO into all this today. I'm going to take a step back...

What I've experienced today is not meant as an excuse, but more as a explanation..

I've seen the two "extremes" in horses and today I've seen the worst of both of it. Couple 5 year old horses of a former acquaintance. Sent to slaughter cause they were "done" at that age. They are grown SUPER fast with dense concentrates, pushed so they win shows very young. Usually get joint injections at 2 to 3 years old because already they are breaking down. Skeletal, ligament and joints don't hold up. But its rather normal and expected. They get replaced rapidly. I helped pull one of them out of his mother years ago..

On the way to take care of my horse I notice a emaciated horse down in a nearby field. Sadly, you see skinny ones very often around here. No one cares, no one comes out if you call it in. I turned around and drove by again, she is still down, no movement, thinking that horse is dead..I turn around again and drive by one more time (there was nowhere to stop there) and she lifts a head, gets on her chest and turns around to look at me. But she looks bad. I'm in a hurry but make a point with myself to check on her on the way back. I drive back home not 2 hours later to see a backhoe in that field, the arm of it up high and the white skinny mare HANGING IN THE AIR by her neck. I suppose they shot her, dug a hole and were moving her as I drove by, why they had to raise her up in the air rather then just to drag her, I don't know. But it keeps haunting me. The way she looked at me earlier. And then the sight as I drove by. Now I wish I had stopped, wish I had gotten someone to go check on her. Although they probably killed her shortly after I drove past and at least I wasn't there for that.

There is a lot we don't know about the snakes system. How its affected by over feeding. Under feeding is easier to see...stunted, bony, starved. Overfed and grown to fast just looks like a big snake. But to me, common sense dictates that neither extreme is a good thing for long term health and soundness.

So, apologies for going off on a tangent and apologies for going "off topic" ..

[CALM Pythons]

All good points I agree Lucy.. And as you said all these terms kinda get into the way of how each of us understands whats starving, maintenance, power feeding etc..
Your right about overfeeding. Ive even had trouble with my male Dog growing to fast and his tendons/joints etc giving him trouble as a puppy.



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[dakski]

New to this thread, but as a non-breeder, 3 snake family, who has kept snakes for more than half my life (now 37 years old), and keeps three different species, it can be confusing and much is open to interpretation.

So much depends on interpretation and applying X rule to one species, may not work for another species.

I get why everyone is so excited about this thread.

My BCI, for example, Behira, is a 1 1/2 year old female, and I already have her on smaller meals than she could easily take, every two weeks (she is about 700G and I feed about 60G small rats now, give or take). My BP at 700G was still being offered every week, but was starting to regulate herself, or so it seemed, by refusing every 3 times or so.

My Corn, could easily eat a weaned rat, or bigger, at 640G, but I keep him on 30G mice every week. Rats are not normal food for corns and they can get fat easy, so smaller meals more frequently work for them.

Anyway, the point is, I had to do a lot of research on both what to and how often to feed everyone, who to listen to, and what breeder(s) to buy from.

I tend to believe for an adult snake, less (either size or frequency) is more, assuming they are healthy and maintaining weight. That does seem to be true, to me anyway.

I do not think this applies to young snakes who are still growing, or at least not to the same degree. A growing animal needs to eat enough to continue to grow at a good rate. Of course "good rate" is open to interpretation.

Jeff Ronne documented feeding BCI's a large meal every week, or more, essentially power feeding, to get them full grown and ready to breed fast. If I recall, none, if only a few maybe, lived to be 5!

Apparently their organs could not grow as fast as their bodies.

But that's BCI's. I have heard of breeders getting corn snakes up to size quickly and they do not seem to do as badly.

In the wild, the snakes that do survive, feed opportunistically, not regularly. They breed. That tells me that in general, again, less is more. It's not like nature is saying okay, this 3 year old female is going to need a rat that's 100G, etc.

Not that we should mimic nature at home. We have an opportunity as keepers and breeders to give optimal care to our animals.

Bottom line: Research, research, research. Not just your species, but breeders, and know who you are getting advice from. Knowledge is power.

[Godzilla78]

Just to clarify my position, all my posts in this thread are in regard to feeding baby growing snakes. I feed adults less frequently and smaller meals relative to their body size, which is healthy maintenance..
when I said”maintenance feeding”, I was using the term the way breeders use it when they are basically starving baby snakes so they don’t grow too fast, and thus purposely stunting their growth.

REAL maintenance feeding as Zina and other very intelligent, experienced keepers here advocate, is very smart to do for mature snakes. “Maintenance feeding” a small, young snake is borderline animal abuse imo. Even if it isn’t really that unhealthy, I still personally like thriving, healthy large mature adults. And the above posted article demonstrates an idea that this kind of practice of undergeeding hatchlings not only temporarily stunts growth of juvenile growing snakes, but has long term metabolic consequences.

[Sunnieskys]

Wow, this thread took off. Lol. I agree with both sides. Under feeding is just as bad as over feeding. They both have consequences in the long term.

Thanks for the adult discussion.

[CALM Pythons]

Since the name of this thread is need to vent I think it should go into the Cafe and become a place where we cam all Fly Off The Handle about all the dumb crap we hear on here everyday hahahahahahaha. Like how you spend hours/days helping someone but they are their own worst enemy and nothing you do or say will help them because you cant fix stupid hahhaha


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[dakski]

Since the name of this thread is need to vent I think it should go into the Cafe and become a place where we cam all Fly Off The Handle about all the dumb crap we hear on here everyday hahahahahahaha. Like how you spend hours/days helping someone but they are their own worst enemy and nothing you do or say will help them because you cant fix stupid hahhaha


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CALMPythons, "Amen."

Half of the posts I don't even bother. Take 5 minutes and read the care sheet, a few posts, etc.

Then, try to use the knowledge and apply it, and learn it. That way you can use common sense to an extent. I am no expert, but I've learned enough over the years so that I can give advice on things I know.

However, many people mean well and want what's best for their animals. I am happy to help those people.

Hate to admit to being selective, but time is limited.

[CALM Pythons]

Yeah I made a thread in the Cafe (quarantine room) a month ago complaining up a storm lol.


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[wolfy-hound]

IMO...

Maintenance feeding is feeding just enough so the snake maintains it's state, not an amount for healthy growth.

Normal diet would be enough feeding for the snake to grow at a moderate rate.

Overfeeding would be a diet that results in overweight snakes or rapid growth.


Obviously, underfeeding or overfeeding are both bad.

Contrary to the study, I have seen quite a few reptiles, BPs included that were starved looking when bought, that jumped up in growth once fed a healthy diet rate. Once you feed them correctly, they seemed to catch up quite easily to snakes that were fed a normal diet their entire lives.

Is that empirical evidence? Yes.

But the original post was about new owners underfeeding snakes and how bad they are for doing so and/or how bad the breeders are for telling the new owners to underfeed. My post was pointing out that often what the new owner 'hears' or 'remembers" is totally different from what they're told. I get it all the time from people in various fields. You can say outright "You have to push the red button twice" and they'll push the blue button once and say "I did exactly what you told me to!"

[Sunnieskys]

But the original post was about new owners underfeeding snakes and how bad they are for doing so and/or how bad the breeders are for telling the new owners to underfeed. My post was pointing out that often what the new owner 'hears' or 'remembers" is totally different from what they're told. I get it all the time from people in various fields. You can say outright "You have to push the red button twice" and they'll push the blue button once and say "I did exactly what you told me to!"

No I explicitly said this is NOT about new snake owners! They were given wrong information from the breeder to feed smaller size than what the snake should normally be on. I also have new snake owners that come to me and when I ask, how much does your snake weigh at the time of purchase, they don't know because the breeder/seller didn't give that info. Or was the snake fed on live or frozen? They didn't tell me. How big were they feeding at the time of sale? Don't know. Pick up the phone right now and get that info. You have to know. And while owners should know....it's always on a seller to give out this info. It's just good business practice. It's a no brainier. And yes, I distinguish between reputable breeders over just sellers that people are buying snakes from in my area.