Need to vent....

[bcr229]

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

Our analyses show that contemporaneous levels of food supply influenced growth rates of pythons, but only to about the same degree as levels of food availability earlier in the individual's life. Thus, an animal's body size reflected not only its age, sex and current feeding rate, but was also a function of the nutritional environment that the animal experienced in the past. Importantly, the way that current levels of prey availability influenced current levels of growth was itself modified by the animal's early growth history. The end result is that the variation in growth rates that was engendered among cohorts of yearling pythons persisted throughout the life of the snakes. We do not know the mechanism by which this ‘silver spoon’ effect occurs, but our data show that the rate at which a python grows is determined not only by its current feeding rate, but also by the nutritional environment that it encountered in its first year of life.

[Godzilla78]

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

Wow! That is interesting and SO important to a serious snake Keeper/breeder.

thank you SO much for sharing this. This is going to majorly influence which breeders I buy from and which breeders I avoid. I prefer bigger pythons. So i am going to avoid the Many, Many breeders that practice the “keep em small” to save space and food. screw that!

[CALM Pythons]

I'm just going to leave this here. If you don't care to read all of it, I've quoted what IMO is the most important paragraph from the study.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00477.x/full

Thats interesting, considering the fact I have heard keepers (my self included) for the last 30 years talk about how you can regulate feeding for giant snakes in particular (as I have) to keep the growth rate slower without any ill effects.... Hmmmm..


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[zina10]

I think the whole "maintenance feeding" thing is completely open to interpretation !!

For one, I myself always practiced what I consider maintenance feeding. To me, that is not even close to "starvation diet" and "stunting" animals.
It is simply the opposite of "power feeding" which is all to often done in this hobby, where "numbers" play such a role. How many grams in how many month, how many month, before breeding size, breed sooner then later, so power feed to accomplish that.

To me, that is FAR more detrimental to any animals long term health, it is simply common sense. Any species has been found to have nothing but negative results from feeding to much/growing to fast.

To me, maintenance feeding simply means not to push an animals growth. I'm pretty sure in the wild, most of these animals often get even less food then what we consider maintenance feeding. Yet, they thrive. They may grow SLOWER, but grow, they do. And if given time, they grow BIG.
But this is exactly the point. In this hobby, "who has time" ??

Oh no, every year any given morph "looses value" as more people produce it. So the race is always on. Each year you "wait" is a potential loss in profits.

I bought 5 hatchlings in 2010. All of which were fed quite conservatively as I had ZERO interest in breeding at that time, even though they were nice morphs and gorgeous animals. I actually WANTED them to grow slow, safe, nice and even. Does that mean I STARVED them to make them fit in smaller containers ?? Of course not. But they grew quite a bit slower then what I see many people push on those animals. Yet...all 5 got to be very big snakes. All 5 were never sick. All 5 retained their coloration nicely into adulthood. All 5 are gorgeous animals. Not a stunted one there.

Are there breeders that put animals on a starvation diet (meaning just enough food to sustain life, but no growth) ? I'm sure there are. But I do not see that as the same as maintenance fed, were you simply don't push as much food as they will take, which results in rapid growth.

I much rather buy from a reputable breeder that takes pride in his / her animals, who consistently produce quality animals, but they may not be 500 gr at 5 month old. Rather that, then from a breeder that is all about "growth". Growth in profits, snakes, push push, to the point some breeder animals regurge several times yet food is still pushed.

There isn't just black and white, there is a whole lot of grey in between, and we can't just push everyone either left or right.

I myself have 4 animals from a breeder that someone who likes to powerfeed complained about. Saying he got a "small for age" animal. All mine were not "small". They would have been bigger if pushed with food, but guess what, a few month later, still fed conservatively (enough, not pushing though) and they are growing beautifully and are prized animals in my collection.

I also have seen animals introduced in the picture section, from breeders that many here buy from and respect, that were obviously "maintenance fed" (and NOT in a bad way). Garrick comes to mind. Gorgeous male snake, not quite a year old and even smaller then the snake someone else complained about being to small for the age. Gorgeous, healthy animal that seems to grow and thrive quite nicely.

In the end, to each their own. There are many factors that are important to me when choosing a breeder. Someone that consistently produces and sends out healthy, gorgeous animals . Someone with a good reputation. Good customer service.

Feeding to little is absolutely a terrible thing. To me, feeding to much (and the reasons why) are just as bad. There is a lot in between there, and "maintenance fed" is just a expression that can mean different things to different people.

In my humble opinion.

[Godzilla78]

I disagree Zina. SO many breeders these days practically starve their hatchlings, as I am constantly shocked at their weight compared their age. Snakes that are a year old, that weigh as much as a typical 6 month old. I have seen many subadult snakes on morph market that are very, very small for their age. I want bigger snakes, and the published article above, shows that this “maintenance feeding” stunts their growth for life!

[zina10]

I disagree Zina. SO many breeders these days practically starve their hatchlings, as I am constantly shocked at their weight compared their age. Snakes that are a year old, that weigh as much as a typical 6 month old. I have seen many subadult snakes on morph market that are very, very small for their age. I want bigger snakes, and the published article above, shows that this “maintenance feeding” stunts their growth for life!

That is not how I read it.

Starving an animal stunts it for life. Maintenance feeding is not starving an animal. Some people may use that expression, but actually starve their animals. Others, like I, use that expression to feed conservatively. Which is probably far closer to what their diet is in the wild. Growing slower is not the same as being starved to the point of being stunted. Growing at a normal rate would look like a "slow rate" to someone that likes to powerfeed and push food to grow them fast.

My male Jag was what "I" consider maintenance fed most of his life. Never pushed or hurried. Here he is, at 8 years old and 3000 gr. Not an ounce of that jiggly fat, either...

What I'm shocked at, is how some people push the animals to grow them rapidly, either for breeding, or because they want them big/fast. They will STILL grow to their genetically pre disposed age if they are grown slower/normal. It may take longer, but imho it is the better/safer way.

But I don't expect people to agree with me, just voicing "my" opinion and experiences

[CALM Pythons]

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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[Godzilla78]

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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Exactly. What many breeders call “maintenance feeding” isn’t the healthy balanced feeding that Zina rightly advocates. I agree with her as her use of the term. But the articles is more pointing out the practice of under feeding growing “children” snakes and that it has long term consequences.

[CALM Pythons]

Exactly. What many breeders call “maintenance feeding” isn’t the healthy balanced feeding that Zina rightly advocates. I agree with her as her use of the term. But the articles is more pointing out the practice of under feeding growing “children” snakes and that it has long term consequences.

Thats how i took it too.. Under feeding during a crucial time.
I think Zina does things very meticulously for her snakes & healthy and i think the study was just about not feeding well when its needed the most and the outcome of that.


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[zina10]

I thought the article meant feeding less than whats considered normal. But whats a normal size meal?
I also will go back and read it again incase i missed something.
Ive always wondered about maintenance feeding because my own common sense takes over. For all living things the most important time in your life is when young, taking in nutrients for good bones, vitamins for a good immune system etc...
This is also why I looked into what prey was best in a nutritional stand point. Im no Einstein so i tend to look at things in a simpler, common sense kinda way. Sure doesn't mean I'm right lol.



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No, I think that is exactly what one should do. Use some common sense, coupled with some sound research. Good nutrition when young is absolutely vital. Starvation during young years can cause one to be stunted.

But...

There is also a plethora of evidence just how detrimental it is to PUSH growth, to hurry it, to "power" feed. All across different species it has been proven to be unhealthy to overeat. In so many ways.
In many animals pushing food pushes "size". Usually there is a reason. We push food animals, because the quicker they grow and the bigger, the more profit. We push some companion animals, because we always want the extraordinary...Super monster big large breed puppies. Ultra teeny tiny teacup puppies.

You see it with dogs very often. "oversized" this and "oversized" that. People posting about the weight of their pup, pushing the food, wanting that 12 week old 60 pound "monster" puppy.

Sad thing is, that pup will still only grow to the size it was genetically meant to be. But it will reach that size far quicker. Often ligaments and skeletal growth cannot keep up and you run into all kinds of problems that will haunt the animal (and owner) later on. Organs are also affected negatively by being grown to quickly.

Now, I know snakes aren't dogs, cats or cattle. Of course not. But that is also why you don't see the negative impact as readily. Snakes don't "limp". They don't whine. And often they aren't kept long enough to notice the bad effects. Although some research has been done into the negative effect of power feeding and causing rapid growth.

I think everyone has to decide for themselves and I don't want to push my opinion on others.

I just want to point out that maintenance feeding is just an expression and doesn't stand for starvation diet. Starvation diet is what causes stunted growth. Animals on a starvation diet have a certain look about them. Unhealthy, weird proportions, bones showing. I have seen many young snakes that may have been smaller then heavily fed ones at the same age, but they looked plump and healthy and grew absolutely normal. To me personally that means we probably just feed a lot heavier then what a "normal" diet would be expected. And NOT feeding heavily is not the same as starving them to the point of staying stunted.

Good nutrition when young is not the same as over fed or heavily fed when young.

I think I have explained my point as far as I can (given English is my second language), though. I don't agree with starving a hatchling. I don't see maintenance feeding as being the same as under feeding. I see power feeding as worse then maintenance feeding.

But again ALL these expressions (power feeding, maintenance feeding, under and over feeding) are all up to interpretation and may mean different things to different people. I guess we can all agree we want our animals healthy, happy and safe. And we all love those noodles