Comparable or no?

There was a discussion of tubs vs. tanks on another site and a user compared large scale BP breeding to puppy mills.

What do you guys think is this comparison accurate or no? I'm neutral on the point and will explain why later.

Not gonna touch the puppy mill part of that question, but it sure sounds familiar. lol As I recall that guy burned his bridges here pretty fast. lol As far as tubs go though, I think they make it easy to provide a habitat that replicates bp habitat in the wild and you can def make efficient use of space with them.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

There was a discussion of tubs vs. tanks on another site and a user compared large scale BP breeding to puppy mills.

What do you guys think is this comparison accurate or no? I'm neutral on the point and will explain why later.

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I personally don't think so. The animals and care are different, just like a person who knows what they are doing can own 20+ snakes and such but there is never a situation where someone can adequately care for 20 dogs. Dogs need exercise, attention, training, room to run, varied diet ect. Now a snake as long as you have the knowledge and income to provide proper husbandry then all you really HAVE to do is feed them and clean the enclosure. Handling is for your benefit not theirs.

Now if you had so many you couldn't give them the proper care, such as you aren't able to clean their enclosures when they need because there are so many and stuff like that then that's another story, but larger breeders tend to hire employees once they get to big to help make sure they are all cared for.

Breeding also works differently with snakes, dogs only should really have a max of 6 litters or so I their lifetime whereas snakes this isn't really the case. Sure they may need to take a year or so off if they lose a lot of weight or seem ill but having lots of clutches doesn't really effect them as much.

So in my opinion they aren't really comparable, they are different animals with different needs and very different care requirements. As long as a breeder has the knowledge and means to care for their animals I don't see the problem with the owning/breeding lots of snakes [emoji14]

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Originally Posted by cletus

Not gonna touch the puppy mill part of that question, but it sure sounds familiar. lol As I recall that guy burned his bridges here pretty fast. lol As far as tubs go though, I think they make it easy to provide a habitat that replicates bp habitat in the wild and you can def make efficient use of space with them.

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That's assuming that they spend their whole lives ( 24/7 , 365 ) in a termite mound or hollowed out tree root - as seems to be widely accepted, I recall a recent discussion on this very topic a month or so ago in here .


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Yes, I am speaking of the BP's living conditions here.

I do not think it is fair to keep a snake in a tub with only a water bowl, and SOMETIMES a hide, all their life like most large scale breeders do is fair. I think thats the sad part about it. Sure they are called 'pet rocks', but that does not mean that they don't need any mental stimulation.

Surviving and thriving are two different things.

Different animals with different sets of needs.... The term "puppy mill" is implying that the dogs are confined to a very small cage, unable to move (often the cage is barely enough for them to lay down, etc.), they are not cleaned, they are not treated for illnesses, and they are not given any personal attention in the form of training, etc, and they don't have access to proper food / water.

Dogs are social and extremely active...As in needing to walk / run miles a day. They are pack animals and must have social interactions to be "healthy". They also have a lot of physical issues that can go wrong when housed as they are in puppy mills...i.e. long-haired toy breeds that aren't groomed can develop mats which cause infection and suffering. Being housed on wire floors can cause sores on their foot pads, etc.

Now. There most certainly are keepers (breeders and owners) that keep reptiles and other animals in conditions similar to what you'd see in a puppy mill...foul enclosures, no access to clean water, infrequent food / starvation, no medical treatment, etc. But we'd just call that being a bad owner and neglect / abuse of the animal. I saw such a case when I went to a "serpentarium" when I was on vacation...it was disgusting.. months' worth of sheds, poo, foul or no water, etc. These animals had large, but empty, enclosures and were kept in these horrid conditions.

From those standards in place, you can only draw one parallel between puppy mills and the standard way of breeding BPs here, which is housing... If all of the other needs are being met and the animals look healthy, then they are receiving the proper care, diet, medical attention, have clean access to water, etc. Snakes are not "social" so you can take that factor out as well.

With housing, it gets tricky because there are no hard studies of how active BPs are in the wild (that I know of) for us to compare to. I know that personally, whenever I have my BPs out, they seek to go into a dark tight place and hide...always. I don't see any explorative behavior in mine, they just want to leave and hide. This is in contrast to my boa constrictors who always want to go and explore, seek high places, and climb. Now, I only own 4 BPs, so I have a small sample size to compare. It is known that they spend a significant portion of their lives in burrows / mounds in confined spaces. How much / what percentage? That is the part we are unsure of. This drastically conflicts with dogs, who do not spend a significant portion of their lives confined in the wild (as wolves) which makes confining them for long periods a very unnatural thing that they aren't mentally prepared to handle.

Something else to note would be that many animals who lack mental stimulation or proper environment in captivity will often exhibit negative behaviors... You can see this in zoos where animals "pace" the cage, do repetitive behaviors, or in animals like birds, monkeys, etc. that will self-mutilate if their mental / social needs are not being met, even with cats in a shelter environment, you will see them sitting in their litter box, which is a sign of high stress. I would hazard that if BPs were suffering from confinement in a mental way, you would see similar behaviors in them, which we don't. There are cases of rubbing/ pushing, particularly in retics, but those are usually related to either wanting to eat or mate and trying to leave the enclosure to do so.

I do believe housing should allow the snake to do all of the behaviors that it would naturally.. so, that would be to stretch out, to move around, to coil up, and to hide. To facilitate this, I have mine in the largest tub rack readily available, which is the V70. In this rack, my females can do all of the behaviors I noted and I even have room for hides. They can still fully stretch out, slither around the tub, etc. IMO keeping a snake in a tub or enclosure where they cannot fully stretch out or thermoregulate is not humane. But, for most species, there are tubs / rack sizes available that allow them to do all of these behaviors, so it is more a matter of size.

IMO a better comparison, if you wanted to compare a part of the hobby to puppy mills, would be wholesalers / distributors that sell to large chain stores. Many of these house animals together in small enclosures, don't provide medical care or proper diet, and often have very poor practices in terms of animal welfare...Even going so far as to leave dead animals in with the living, freezing animals alive, etc. There are breeders that could be lumped into that as well, but generally, breeders are concerned with the health of their animals as unhealthy / sickly ones do not breed well.

I think you really have to evaluate breeders (and other businesses / owners) on a case-by-case basis. How they house and care for their animals should be a consideration before you purchase from someone.

You won't find many people that are anti-tub, because the animals have been shown to do well in these conditions (i.e. live, eat, breed, without sickness or negative effects). So you are basically trying to prove that it is harmful even though there are no signs. Now, I believe, as I stated above, that the animals should be given enough room to do natural behaviors, etc. and there are some people housing them in tubs that are too small IMO, but that is something you'd have to look at on a case-by-case basis. Many breeders / owners state that they move an animal up in a tub size and the animal shows negative behaviors (stress, not eating, etc.) and thus they move it back down, so some allowance for individual animals has to be taken into account. Some find an animal stresses in a tub and move it into a larger tub or pvc cage, so there are different circumstances for different animals and owners.

I don't think they are comparable at all, except for the fact they both produce animals. GOOD ball python breeders pay close attention to their snakes. I'm sure there are bad breeders that have sick snakes with mites and stuck shed ect... Puppy Mills do not provide proper care for their animals, breeders do. Ball pythons can benefit from a more dynamic habitat, but they can still thrive in a rack system when given the proper attention.(I think it gets more questionable with more mobile snakes like bulls or Kings). Remember guys, all the morphs and combos we love are made possibly by the breeders.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That's assuming that they spend their whole lives ( 24/7 , 365 ) in a termite mound or hollowed out tree root - as seems to be widely accepted, I recall a recent discussion on this very topic a month or so ago in here .


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Oops .... didn't make it clear that there's a different view that they DON'T actually spend every second of their lives in a hole :)


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I don't find it comparable at all. Rack systems are designed to keep the snakes at the correct temperature and humidity, and for ease of cleaning so the snake doesn't get an RI, scale rot, burned, etc. Most snakes also prefer to be in their tubs; many of mine dive under their hides when the tub is opened. They like it in there and do not want to come out.

Compare that to a dog from a puppy mill which is often riddled with parasites, has parvo or kennel cough, is underweight, filthy, has fleas, etc.

Surely they dive away because they're hidden away from everything . My Royals are all in vivs and come to life in the evenings and get all inquisitive if they're in the slightest bit hungry ... No sign of any nervousness at ANY time .


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They can not be compared simply because dogs have completely different needs than ball pythons. A puppy mill is abusive to dogs mentally and physically even if they are kept clean because dogs have so many more needs that need to be met other than water and a clean cage. Where as ball pythons need just exactly that, a clean, dark, small space with fresh water. These conditions are what actually keep these animals stress free and healthy. So a rack type setup doesn't only meet their needs but it is actually what works best for ball pythons and I say this with experience in anything from a rack with small tubs all the way to a 8' vision cage. Ball pythons just prefer small dark hiding places. The only time they come out from hiding in a large cage is because they are looking for food, to mate or because some other factor is stressing them and they are trying to escape. In small tubs they are in a small secure hiding spot that they would actually be looking for if they are in a larger area. They actually want to be in their tubs, all 30+ of mine will go straight for it as soon as they smell it, they actually like their small tubs because it makes them feel secure. Ball pythons don't need or want large space, socialization or human affection. Dogs pretty much need the opposite so what is inadequate living conditions for a dog can be the perfect living conditions for a ball python.

Large scale breeders like Brain Barczyk are not the same like the large volume reptile distributors that supply to petco and petsmart. The first has a large volume of snakes that are well taken care of and not let to basically rot while the latter simply gets as many as they can and shoves them in horrendous conditions and does not care if they die because to them they are simply a commodity with an acceptable loss rate.

So there has to be a distinction between the two or you just end up lumping everyone together and that then invalidates anyone's argument against snake breeding.

I think that has been discussed ad naseum.

While BP in the wild do NOT spend all their time in ONE tiny little hole, they spend a large majority of their time in a hole. They are known to wait on a prey item to come and find them. Eventually they have to defecate/urinate which will make their hide spot unsuitable. Because prey animals will not go near it, knowing what inhabits it.

So they find a new hole.

During breeding season the males travel to find a female.

I have talked to some people that actually been in those areas (many years ago) and they said the snakes were best found during breeding season or by checking hide spots they prefer.

Ball Pythons are picky snakes. They are snakes that do not do well (hunger strikes) if they do not feel safe. They often choose safety over all else, even the need to eat. That's why it often doesn't work to put a rodent in a cage in the middle of a room to get a escaped Ball Python to show itself. It will hunker down in some tiny little hole.

So then there are the people that are 100% pro tub and nothing else, and the people that are 100% pro tank and nothing else. I find both stances ridiculous.

A cage can be made to work. If you keep the animals needs in mind. A tub can work wonderfully as well. I've used both and I pay CLOSE attention to my animals well being. I also rescued many BP's way back in the day, some imports that were quite sickly. I've also used to own a large variety of other snake species.

I find that BP's do exceptionally well in a tub setup. (IF DONE RIGHT) Far less feeding problems and calmer animals. Yes, they tend to be more "active" in tanks, but that is not always a good thing. We also need to be careful not to project human (or even compl. different, social animals) emotions and needs onto these snakes. Basically, the proof is in the pudding. Unhappy BP's don't do well. They don't eat well. To say they just "exist" doesn't do them justice. You can see when an animal thrives and looks exceptionally well.

All that said, I do still own a display cage and I LOVE the way it looks and I LOVE to see the snake. I strongly believe that there are other snake species that do much better in a display cage rather then a Ball Python. But Ball Pythons is what I keep so I have one in a Display cage. Set up the right way.

Both ways can work. Both ways can be done wrong.

Arguing that either one or the other is "terrible" and abuses the snakes is ridiculous and presumptuous, imho.

My BP's that reside in the tubs get plenty of "out" time to stretch and move about. However, I can clearly see that they are always quite happy just to go back to their safe space. I do not believe it is a species that needs mental stimulation or entertainment.

I don't see how this thread just turned against me, for some reason? All I did was ask for opinions on the matter, I am not arguing for either side. I did state that I was neutral on the matter so...

I am not anti-tub, then I would be a hypocrite, because my ball python is kept in a tub. But does he only have just a water bowl and substrate in there? No, he has three hides, multiple rocks, moss, artificial leaves, and branches to climb, yes all of that in one tub!

And I get that some breeders have to be time and cost efficient, but that still doesn't make them doing the bare minimum for their snakes ok.

The thread has not turned against any one person that I can see?

Its a discussion of "pro and con" and about the possibility of comparing puppy mills and snake breeding facilities.

Opinions vary.

You yourself say that the "bare minimum" is not ok. That in order to keep a snake in a tub it should have rocks, leaves, wood to climb on. That is an opinion. Some agree, some do not. Thus is the nature of an online discussion ;)

My oldest and tamest male likes to roam around and climb and such, A LOT, except when he just ate or is shedding. I attribute this to he is seeking a female...because he didn't do this until he became an adult. So I think he is perfectly happy in his enclosure, UNLESS he is HORNY! lol. Which he is mostly these days. He is in with his girlfriend right now, and he stopped roaming.:D

I used to think that they needed space, but I now agree that they are content in a tub, and only want to roam around if they are lacking something such as mate, food, water, place to urinate.. etc. Since we as keepers provide them with all this, they really don't need to roam much. I let them out to exercise sometimes, but most of them just end up hiding immediately anyway. The males seem a little more inquisitive to explore their surroundings.

They are the perfect breeding animal since they are naturally content in confined spaces. At first I was afraid to get more than one, because I thought I would have to spend a fortune in glass terrariums and heaters... then I finally discovered that a rack system is not cruel or weird in any way.

I suspect that the person who may the statement that has generated all these responses, was referring to the "mind-set" of the breeder and not the specific conditions that the animals find themselves in -- though these conditions are often spawned by that mind-set.

It boils down to how you feel about these creatures. Are they beautiful and fascinating creatures deserving of the time and effort we put into sharing our existence with them? Or, are they simply "things" in which one can make a profit by with little or no personal sacrifice made to accomplish that goal?

Peace

Let us not forget that it is thanks to the larger scale breeders (not mills) that we now have captive bred Ball Pythons widely available. Which has cut down on the import from Africa. You want to see some misery for those animals? That was it!!!


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Originally Posted by dadofsix

I suspect that the person who may the statement that has generated all these responses, was referring to the "mind-set" of the breeder and not the specific conditions that the animals find themselves in -- though these conditions are often spawned by that mind-set.

It boils down to how you feel about these creatures. Are they beautiful and fascinating creatures deserving of the time and effort we put into sharing our existence with them? Or, are they simply "things" in which one can make a profit by with little or no personal sacrifice made to accomplish that goal?

Peace

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Exactly! Everytime I watch a video from a large scale breeder and they pull out a snake do I hear 'this snake is so sweet and has a great personality, etc etc'?

No, I hear 'Look how cool this is, look how many genes it has, its a great eater so hopefully next year I can get some babies from it'.

I just don't think large scale breeders really care about their animals the same way a hobbyist does.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

Exactly! Everytime I watch a video from a large scale breeder and they pull out a snake do I hear 'this snake is so sweet and has a great personality, etc etc'?

No, I hear 'Look how cool this is, look how many genes it has, its a great eater so hopefully next year I can get some babies from it'.

I just don't think large scale breeders really care about their animals the same way a hobbyist does.

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I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Some may not care and maybe it's only about money for some of them but don't lump them all together because I guarantee most of them are very passionate about these animals or they would of never made it as far as they have in This business. Most of the breeders in it for the money don't last very long because it is not easy money as most of them assume it is before they get into it. Once they find out it's a lot of work most of them just quit and look for their next easy plan to get rich.

Sorry, no offence, this is just from what I have experienced. I personally have never met or seen a large scale breeder that genuinely cares about every single one of their animals as an individual.

Saying all large scale breeders don't care about their animals is doing them a great disservice. Of course there are the better and the worse ones. But without them we would still only have mostly wild caught animals to choose from. You want to see how difficult it can be to get a Ball Python to thrive? Try an import. Not only do they usually arrive with parasites (inside and out) but severely stressed. Understandable after the ordeal they go through. Try to get one of them to thrive in a nice large cage. Even set up correctly. There is a reason why BP used to be a "throwaway" pet mostly. They were frustrating. Wouldn't eat for many reasons and often perish because their most pressing need of complete and utter privacy was not met. While I'm sure there are breeders that are in for the money....if they do not treat their animals well...they are soon to fail. Most do care. They may not cuddle with each snake every day but they do take pride in them and provide excellent care. Just because they proudly display their accomplishments does not mean they also do not care about the animal altogether. There are good and bad in everything. There are a LOT of Ball Pythons being taken care of (or rather not taken care of) in many pet homes. If you don't take proper care of these animals...you will not get rich of them. Not even close. As many learn all the time. Im grateful we now have a large and well established captive bred population of Ball Pythons. It makes it so easy for us all to enjoy these beautiful animals without a lot of frustration. It certainly cuts down a lot on the misery of the imports. The rest has been said and said again. [emoji846] so to each their own. I think we can all agree how much we love those animals and that this is a great place to discuss them and share our opinions and tips!


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Speaking specifically about royals, until there is actual evidence to back one method vs another, I'll try to remain neutral and openminded. There are many who use racks because they genuinely believe their snakes are healthier(easier to keep sanitary) and happier(agoraphobic argument is the most common) as a result. While I'm not opposed to either housing choice, I never really understood the holier than thou attitude of people keeping snakes in a 48 inch enclosure versus a 33 inch tub. Some of the natural setups are undeniably beautiful, yes, but what benefit is that for the snake? Neither are anywhere close a wild setting, specifically in regards to spatial limitations, so who can really argue that the royal is better off in one vs the other? How are you measuring the happiness and wellbeing of the snake besides superimposing your own feelings over them?

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

Yes, I am speaking of the BP's living conditions here.

I do not think it is fair to keep a snake in a tub with only a water bowl, and SOMETIMES a hide, all their life like most large scale breeders do is fair. I think thats the sad part about it. Sure they are called 'pet rocks', but that does not mean that they don't need any mental stimulation.

Surviving and thriving are two different things.

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I disagree. Ball pythons in the wild do nothing but search for water, and wait in ambush for food. I don't think it matters if it's a different environment or not. I don't think snakes need mental stimulation as they don't really have feelings or get bored. Just my two cents though! ( I don't like puppy mill BTW)

This is starting to remind me of the debates and radical changes zoos entered into beginning in the 1980s when habitats for animals started to be questioned. Zoos like North Carolina and San Diego began to radically change the old way of thinking and started adding enrichment and seclusion to habits and noticed drastic positive changes in the health and welfare of all their animals from reptiles all the way up to primates and large land mammals.

While there is a justified need for convenience in commercial breeding with setup and care requirements vary greatly from species to species, I feel we are still learning about the best way to keep a snake versus the commonly held beliefs of how to keep a snake alive. I agree that the combative behavior of some people when it comes to how others care for their snakes can be downright aggravating and needing of education but how much do we actually know about the benefits of an enriched environment versus one that meets basics needs to a T?

My feelings and this may diverge off topic, is that if you are not a commercial breeder, why not offer your snake the best possible environment for them over one that is simple to maintain for you? If it does not negatively impact their welfare including heat and humidity, why would room to explore, enrichment items, and a larger space not be a benefit?


I know when I add a new item to my enclosure, my snake is curious and will explore it for the next week or so. I know that my snake does love to climb and bask in the open at night as well as find a safe spot to hide during the day. I don't feel I am anthropomorphizing my snake or placing non reptilian husbandry needs on him, I simply have observed over the years that the more I enrich and offer new sensations, the better he eats as well as maintains healthy weight while reducing stress.

That is not to say that a snake living in a tub is going to be depressed or live a shorter life, it is simply that I have a small animal collection and as such I have the luxury of offering a larger environment without needing to accommodate for space and my time.

Nailed it!

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Originally Posted by John1982

Speaking specifically about royals, until there is actual evidence to back one method vs another, I'll try to remain neutral and openminded. There are many who use racks because they genuinely believe their snakes are healthier(easier to keep sanitary) and happier(agoraphobic argument is the most common) as a result. While I'm not opposed to either housing choice, I never really understood the holier than thou attitude of people keeping snakes in a 48 inch enclosure versus a 33 inch tub. Some of the natural setups are undeniably beautiful, yes, but what benefit is that for the snake? Neither are anywhere close a wild setting, specifically in regards to spatial limitations, so who can really argue that the royal is better off in one vs the other? How are you measuring the happiness and wellbeing of the snake besides superimposing your own feelings over them?

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Nailed it! it's a excellent question, how do you determine "happiness" in a snake?

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

Sorry, no offence, this is just from what I have experienced. I personally have never met or seen a large scale breeder that genuinely cares about every single one of their animals as an individual.

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Breeding on that scale is certainly a business and you will see them talk about morph, genetics, etc. but keep in mind that the videos they make are often to show the quality of their animals and inform possible buyers about what their future plans might be. Thus, they may not talk about personality, etc. because most buyers would be more interested in morphs vs. that.

I'd also like to note that I've seen a couple things which lead me to believe specific breeders care about their animals. Example one. In this blog post, J. Kobylka documented an experiment of breeding a desert female. He took pains throughout the whole process to care for the female properly, including expensive vet treatment, and kept (and I assume continues) to keep her as a pet and not for breeding purposes. To me, this says that he cares about his animals, breeding and not.

I don't have a link for my second example, but I watched several of Garrick Demeyer's videos on youtube the other day and he noted in one of them that he does not have hired help because he wants to make sure everything is done to his standards and so that he can check on each animal to ensure health, etc. He also noted that he holds back babies for several months to ensure that they are thriving and feeding well before he sells them. To me, those are also signs of someone that shows care in what they do.

Neither of these examples proves an "emotional" connection, but they do show people who take proper care of their animals and that they want to ensure that the animals have both good conditions and health. I have never purchased animals from either of these two breeders, but they are on the top of my list of "to buy from" and I'm sure there are many other small scale breeders who also take pride in and care for their animals as well.

All that said, you can usually tell if a large scale producer / seller does not care for their stock... You will see it in how they are treated, the condition of the animals, and the cleanliness of their environments.. You can also cruise around the BOI on fauna.. Pretty much anyone that has several bad reviews probably treats their animals poorly and it is not going unnoticed.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Some may not care and maybe it's only about money for some of them but don't lump them all together because I guarantee most of them are very passionate about these animals or they would of never made it as far as they have in This business. Most of the breeders in it for the money don't last very long because it is not easy money as most of them assume it is before they get into it. Once they find out it's a lot of work most of them just quit and look for their next easy plan to get rich.

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you try telling me brian from BHB reptiles and From SnakebitesTV doesn't have a passion and care about all the thousands of animals he and his crew care for.

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Originally Posted by PythonBabes

Yes, I am speaking of the BP's living conditions here.

I do not think it is fair to keep a snake in a tub with only a water bowl, and SOMETIMES a hide, all their life like most large scale breeders do is fair. I think thats the sad part about it. Sure they are called 'pet rocks', but that does not mean that they don't need any mental stimulation.

Surviving and thriving are two different things.

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If anyone has actually looked at what ball pythons do in the wild .....you would kno that a tub and a water bowl is more than enough .

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Originally Posted by dylan815

you try telling me brian from BHB reptiles and From SnakebitesTV doesn't have a passion and care about all the thousands of animals he and his crew care for.

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Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

Keeping snakes in rack systems is in no way comparable to a puppy mill. You're providing a controlled, clean, beneficial habitat for your snake to keep it healthy. If you manage to do the same with vivs and tanks, that's fine too. There are stickies and advice for both everywhere. If either setup was truly so abhorrent, no one would be using them. The argument for one or the other is old and tired, and shouldn't matter as long as your animals are well cared for, whether you have one snake or one hundred.

I'm not sure if anyone here has seen the full scale of what a puppy mill actually is, but I've been to a few during rescues, and to imply that breeders who have a lot of snakes in rack systems because they run a business (or just keeping snakes in racks) is tantamount to running a puppy mill is rather insulting. As long as they are passionate about their animals, and the animals are thriving in the habs provided, let them run their business. If you feel otherwise, buy your animals from people who keep snakes to standards you approve of. Simple.

If you think Brian from BHB or Garrick at Royal Constrictor (or any other big name in bp breeding) don't have a favorite snake or five in their entire collections that they don't stop to handle and enjoy once in a while, I'd bet money against you. If you think they strictly started breeding for money's sake, I'd for sure bet against you.

I know there are breeders out there who are irresponsible and shouldn't own animals period, but that is why the consumer is free to choose who they do and do not patronize. There are jerks everywhere doing things they shouldn't. Avoid them.

/endrant

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

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I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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Originally Posted by dylan815

I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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I thought that might be the case but the way you worded it, I couldn't tell if you were just being sarcastic. It sounds like we are on the same side.:)

As for the arguments that zoo's eventually made a bigger effort to create more suitable environments for each species they display, well, every species has different needs. Some need more space, others less. Some need to be able to climb, run and swim, others just graze.

It is still a zoo. It DISPLAYS animals. You have to be able to see them, if you go to the zoo. So no matter how they adjust the habitats, they animals still need to be seen. Even the ones that prefer very, VERY much NOT to be seen.

Back when I started with Ball Pythons most were kept in glass tanks. Forget privacy. The more visibility, the better. Who would want a snake you never see? Forget hides. Forget darkened sides/tops. There may have been a bit of decoration in the middle, but the setups were still quite lacking. Some animals made it despite this. Many eventually were passed from home to home until passing away from lack of proper care and the resulting hunger strikes.

So perhaps keeping them in a "tub" setup is the actual progress that was done to provide more species appropriate setups. "Changes" in routine and setup can make Ball Pythons go off feed. Even a change in "decoration". Of course they check it out. It wasn't there before. I have learned that whenever Ball Pythons are very active, its usually not because they are bored or want a cuddle. Something is bothering them. Hunger. Stress. Wrong temps or humidity. Or the need to breed. I don't think they cruise around because they are bored and want a kitty ball to play with (yes, someone tried to tell me they need toys to play with for mental enrichment)

I agree with all that both methods "can" work if done right. But unless you do try both methods and have enough experience to really read those animals, you cannot say for sure that one is right and one is wrong.

I'm not saying that to sound superior. I'm saying that because I used to be in the "100% against tubs" camp. I used to keep them all in cages. Nice cages, too. (Neodesha). Until I started taking in rescues that were imports and quite sick. Or former pets that were neglected. Some were very ill, others "just" near death from starvation due to stress of some form or another. They needed to be strictly quarantined and they needed a LOT of care. They went into tubs to have utmost privacy and could be kept absolutely clean. That's when I realized how well they did, how much faster they seemed to turn around, how much better and quicker they ate. I moved them from the tubs to tanks once they were better and they went back to refusing food. And my cages were set up right, only the front "see through", plenty hides, sticks, greenery, whatnot. I know, those were the "hard" cases, but they really made me take another look at racks and do more research, instead of being so closed minded. I finally went with a rack for my animals and FOR THIS SPECIES I find a good rack with the correct husbandry a very good setup to have.

That said, there are many species I personally wouldn't dream of keeping in tubs. I have had snakes that were busy, and for whom it is natural to be out and about, climbing, watching and interacting. If you want a most interesting "nosy" snake, get a Russian Rat snake. The only snakes I ever had who actually watched intently what I was doing. Following my every move and coming to the edge of the door when wanting out. They would explore, not just look to get away to hide. The female would settle in the front of my hoodie, little head sticking out above the zipper, and just ride along while I was doing chores. They also climb and are busy. WONDERFUL display snakes. My boas, carpets and even GTP's also made great animals for display cages (well, not the brazilian boa, but the redtails)

I also enjoyed my Ball Pythons in Display cages. I have one now. But I would never, ever knock anyone keeping them in racks (the right way) or saying this was cruel. I find the opposite to be true.

So really...to each their own. As long as they have the correct husbandry who cares if some people put cat toys into the cage or like to imagine the snake loves to cuddle with them. As long as the snake has its basic needs met and is healthy and eating, whatever floats someones boat, whether cage or tub.


edited to say: I agree with KayLynn. It is insulting to compare large scale snake breeders with a puppy mill. And everyone that has seen a puppymill, smelled it, touched and rescued those animals, will agree. I'm sure there are bad keepers, wanne be snake breeders who end up neglecting their animals, leaving them sitting in filth. But they quickly fail. Snakes need a certain husbandry in order live, eat and reproduce. The margin for error is much smaller. Unfortunately with dogs, you can leave them to freeze, to almost starve, to get overheated and to sit in their filth, and they will still breed, and they will still live. It takes a lot more to kill a dog through neglect, then a snake.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

Im not clear on your point, I'm saying I think he DOES have passion for his animals as well as most other large breeders. Just because they don't cuddle with each one every week does not mean they don't care, pythons are not like dogs, they have no need or care for our affection.

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I guess I misunderstood your statement about large breeders.


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Originally Posted by SDA

My feelings and this may diverge off topic, is that if you are not a commercial breeder, why not offer your snake the best possible environment for them over one that is simple to maintain for you? If it does not negatively impact their welfare including heat and humidity, why would room to explore, enrichment items, and a larger space not be a benefit?

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Because sometimes larger spaces do negatively impact an animal's welfare. This is probably more true for ball pythons than other types of snake, but some animals just won't feel comfortable in larger enclosures no matter how many nice, comfy hides and pretty decorations you put in them. There's also the fact that it costs time and money to maintain a larger enclosure with cage furniture and decorations, but there's no indication that it's beneficial to the animal. Why make all that effort when there's no proof it helps?

I will say that some snakes do better in tanks. My rosys in particular seem to need the lower humidity a screen top provides. My female hognose spends a lot of time roaming her tank and she does just fine. But as far as ball pythons go, I see no discernible difference between the health and happiness of the one I keep in a big glass terrarium and the ones I keep in racks. If anything, the ones in racks typically fare better. It provides the security necessary to get stubborn eaters to feed and my rack setup is simple enough that it's easy to detect, prevent, and cure most illnesses and parasites.

I keep most of my BPs in racks because it's better for them.

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Originally Posted by SDA

I know when I add a new item to my enclosure, my snake is curious and will explore it for the next week or so. I know that my snake does love to climb and bask in the open at night as well as find a safe spot to hide during the day. I don't feel I am anthropomorphizing my snake or placing non reptilian husbandry needs on him...

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You say you're not anthropomorphizing your snake, but how do you know for sure that your snake is exploring because it enjoys it's surroundings? Yes, ball pythons are curious creatures, and probably more intelligent than people let on, but that doesn't mean they enjoy being out in the open and looking at new things. They explore to familiarize themselves with their surroundings, so if anything bad happens they'll know where to hide.

I rely on my snakes' behavior to tell me how they're doing. I can tell when they're thriving or when they're not. But I can't tell how they feel, and neither can you. When you say your snake "loves to climb" that's an inference. You can't read his mind or know what he's thinking. I have a feeling that if we both observed the same snake at the same time we'd both come to different conclusions. If you take your snake out and he slithers freely over your body and onto your furniture you may believe that he's enjoying the change in scenery. When my snakes do that I think "Oh, he's looking for a place to hide. He must feel uncomfortable."

Those are both opinions. And unless we ever find a way to scan a BP's brain and read it's thoughts I doubt we'll ever know for sure what a snake is thinking. But I guarantee you that eventually any wandering BP will find a place where it feels safe and curl up and hide there.

Ultimately, I don't put much stock in the opinions of people who are against something they're never tried. There are people who've never owned snakes that talk about how awful they are, but how would they know? There are also people who say it's unethical to breed the spider morph, even though they've never owned one and never will. And there sure are a lot of people who love their big, fancy enclosures. You seem to think that they're the only way to go. Have you ever tried a rack?