Comparable or no?

[rufretic]

Exactly! Everytime I watch a video from a large scale breeder and they pull out a snake do I hear 'this snake is so sweet and has a great personality, etc etc'?

No, I hear 'Look how cool this is, look how many genes it has, its a great eater so hopefully next year I can get some babies from it'.

I just don't think large scale breeders really care about their animals the same way a hobbyist does.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Some may not care and maybe it's only about money for some of them but don't lump them all together because I guarantee most of them are very passionate about these animals or they would of never made it as far as they have in This business. Most of the breeders in it for the money don't last very long because it is not easy money as most of them assume it is before they get into it. Once they find out it's a lot of work most of them just quit and look for their next easy plan to get rich.

[PythonBabes]

Sorry, no offence, this is just from what I have experienced. I personally have never met or seen a large scale breeder that genuinely cares about every single one of their animals as an individual.

[zina10]

Saying all large scale breeders don't care about their animals is doing them a great disservice. Of course there are the better and the worse ones. But without them we would still only have mostly wild caught animals to choose from. You want to see how difficult it can be to get a Ball Python to thrive? Try an import. Not only do they usually arrive with parasites (inside and out) but severely stressed. Understandable after the ordeal they go through. Try to get one of them to thrive in a nice large cage. Even set up correctly. There is a reason why BP used to be a "throwaway" pet mostly. They were frustrating. Wouldn't eat for many reasons and often perish because their most pressing need of complete and utter privacy was not met. While I'm sure there are breeders that are in for the money....if they do not treat their animals well...they are soon to fail. Most do care. They may not cuddle with each snake every day but they do take pride in them and provide excellent care. Just because they proudly display their accomplishments does not mean they also do not care about the animal altogether. There are good and bad in everything. There are a LOT of Ball Pythons being taken care of (or rather not taken care of) in many pet homes. If you don't take proper care of these animals...you will not get rich of them. Not even close. As many learn all the time. Im grateful we now have a large and well established captive bred population of Ball Pythons. It makes it so easy for us all to enjoy these beautiful animals without a lot of frustration. It certainly cuts down a lot on the misery of the imports. The rest has been said and said again. so to each their own. I think we can all agree how much we love those animals and that this is a great place to discuss them and share our opinions and tips!


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[John1982]

Speaking specifically about royals, until there is actual evidence to back one method vs another, I'll try to remain neutral and openminded. There are many who use racks because they genuinely believe their snakes are healthier(easier to keep sanitary) and happier(agoraphobic argument is the most common) as a result. While I'm not opposed to either housing choice, I never really understood the holier than thou attitude of people keeping snakes in a 48 inch enclosure versus a 33 inch tub. Some of the natural setups are undeniably beautiful, yes, but what benefit is that for the snake? Neither are anywhere close a wild setting, specifically in regards to spatial limitations, so who can really argue that the royal is better off in one vs the other? How are you measuring the happiness and wellbeing of the snake besides superimposing your own feelings over them?

[dylan815]

Yes, I am speaking of the BP's living conditions here.

I do not think it is fair to keep a snake in a tub with only a water bowl, and SOMETIMES a hide, all their life like most large scale breeders do is fair. I think thats the sad part about it. Sure they are called 'pet rocks', but that does not mean that they don't need any mental stimulation.

Surviving and thriving are two different things.

I disagree. Ball pythons in the wild do nothing but search for water, and wait in ambush for food. I don't think it matters if it's a different environment or not. I don't think snakes need mental stimulation as they don't really have feelings or get bored. Just my two cents though! ( I don't like puppy mill BTW)

[SDA]

This is starting to remind me of the debates and radical changes zoos entered into beginning in the 1980s when habitats for animals started to be questioned. Zoos like North Carolina and San Diego began to radically change the old way of thinking and started adding enrichment and seclusion to habits and noticed drastic positive changes in the health and welfare of all their animals from reptiles all the way up to primates and large land mammals.

While there is a justified need for convenience in commercial breeding with setup and care requirements vary greatly from species to species, I feel we are still learning about the best way to keep a snake versus the commonly held beliefs of how to keep a snake alive. I agree that the combative behavior of some people when it comes to how others care for their snakes can be downright aggravating and needing of education but how much do we actually know about the benefits of an enriched environment versus one that meets basics needs to a T?

My feelings and this may diverge off topic, is that if you are not a commercial breeder, why not offer your snake the best possible environment for them over one that is simple to maintain for you? If it does not negatively impact their welfare including heat and humidity, why would room to explore, enrichment items, and a larger space not be a benefit?


I know when I add a new item to my enclosure, my snake is curious and will explore it for the next week or so. I know that my snake does love to climb and bask in the open at night as well as find a safe spot to hide during the day. I don't feel I am anthropomorphizing my snake or placing non reptilian husbandry needs on him, I simply have observed over the years that the more I enrich and offer new sensations, the better he eats as well as maintains healthy weight while reducing stress.

That is not to say that a snake living in a tub is going to be depressed or live a shorter life, it is simply that I have a small animal collection and as such I have the luxury of offering a larger environment without needing to accommodate for space and my time.

[dylan815]

Nailed it!

[dylan815]

Speaking specifically about royals, until there is actual evidence to back one method vs another, I'll try to remain neutral and openminded. There are many who use racks because they genuinely believe their snakes are healthier(easier to keep sanitary) and happier(agoraphobic argument is the most common) as a result. While I'm not opposed to either housing choice, I never really understood the holier than thou attitude of people keeping snakes in a 48 inch enclosure versus a 33 inch tub. Some of the natural setups are undeniably beautiful, yes, but what benefit is that for the snake? Neither are anywhere close a wild setting, specifically in regards to spatial limitations, so who can really argue that the royal is better off in one vs the other? How are you measuring the happiness and wellbeing of the snake besides superimposing your own feelings over them?

Nailed it! it's a excellent question, how do you determine "happiness" in a snake?

[artgecko]

Sorry, no offence, this is just from what I have experienced. I personally have never met or seen a large scale breeder that genuinely cares about every single one of their animals as an individual.

Breeding on that scale is certainly a business and you will see them talk about morph, genetics, etc. but keep in mind that the videos they make are often to show the quality of their animals and inform possible buyers about what their future plans might be. Thus, they may not talk about personality, etc. because most buyers would be more interested in morphs vs. that.

I'd also like to note that I've seen a couple things which lead me to believe specific breeders care about their animals. Example one. In this blog post, J. Kobylka documented an experiment of breeding a desert female. He took pains throughout the whole process to care for the female properly, including expensive vet treatment, and kept (and I assume continues) to keep her as a pet and not for breeding purposes. To me, this says that he cares about his animals, breeding and not.

I don't have a link for my second example, but I watched several of Garrick Demeyer's videos on youtube the other day and he noted in one of them that he does not have hired help because he wants to make sure everything is done to his standards and so that he can check on each animal to ensure health, etc. He also noted that he holds back babies for several months to ensure that they are thriving and feeding well before he sells them. To me, those are also signs of someone that shows care in what they do.

Neither of these examples proves an "emotional" connection, but they do show people who take proper care of their animals and that they want to ensure that the animals have both good conditions and health. I have never purchased animals from either of these two breeders, but they are on the top of my list of "to buy from" and I'm sure there are many other small scale breeders who also take pride in and care for their animals as well.

All that said, you can usually tell if a large scale producer / seller does not care for their stock... You will see it in how they are treated, the condition of the animals, and the cleanliness of their environments.. You can also cruise around the BOI on fauna.. Pretty much anyone that has several bad reviews probably treats their animals poorly and it is not going unnoticed.

[dylan815]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. Some may not care and maybe it's only about money for some of them but don't lump them all together because I guarantee most of them are very passionate about these animals or they would of never made it as far as they have in This business. Most of the breeders in it for the money don't last very long because it is not easy money as most of them assume it is before they get into it. Once they find out it's a lot of work most of them just quit and look for their next easy plan to get rich.

you try telling me brian from BHB reptiles and From SnakebitesTV doesn't have a passion and care about all the thousands of animals he and his crew care for.