They are trying to take my snake

I have lived at the same place for 18 months. My apartment manager knew it when I got my first snake 16 months ago. Now, I got a conduct notice put in my door that snakes are not a part of the apartment policy. I'm not sure what has changed.
Right now I have Harvey only, the guy around my neck. He is completely deaf (don't bring up arguments about how deaf snakes are, I know they are mostly deaf, but he is COMPLETELY deaf, and I know this because I test my adoptive snakes). I kept him from my adoption program because it took me a long time to accept that and now he can't be away from his mommy. And... I can't be away from him.
Anyway, I have owned George, Ted, Ernie, and Cecily and I've successfully given them away as therapy snakes in the last 16 months. Harvey was different. The others were easier to transition to frozen and warmed up mice, and they handled nicely. But Harvey had trouble, so I decided he was a keeper.
I also had Mikey, who died recently in my car. He was neck wrapped and he fell between my seat and console and cut himself. He couldn't be saved. His ashes are right in front of me to remind me not to practice neck wrap in the car ever again. He was the sweetest snake ever.
Anyway, my landlord is trying to ban snakes all of a sudden, when she knows what I do. I have an interview at 1:20 today with a therapist to try to get a letter for him. It's costing me $225. I have also researched and printed the city ordinances, and the laws regarding Emotional Support Animals (ESAs). They are not service animals, but if a therapist says you need your ESA, you get to keep it no matter what.
My boy has done a lot of service for others, and even more for me. He is always up for a cuddle when I want it. He spent 75 minutes on my lap, chest and neck last night. I haven't slept in two days because I worry.:(
I will keep you updated later today.

Just an extra note. If your snake is very twitchy, especially next to their head...
I pet Harvey's body, then I tap my fingers lightly walking up to his head. He can feel me approaching, and he accepts a nice head rub.
How do I know he's deaf? He doesn't respond at all to loud clapping, but he twitches with sudden touch next to his head.

two things here.

1. sorry about your landlord situation, do you have a copy of your lease and does it state no exotic animals or anything of that nature. Any wording that could be easily interpreted as either snakes or all animals in general? Or did you make a verbal agreement with the landlord about what you do? If you have your signed lease statement and there is no wording about animals in it or no wording about snakes you have a good shot and pressing your landlord to either let you keep the animals or move with no contract termination fees.

2. Snakes "hear" vibrations and 99.9% of bp's are headshy. All mine ball up when I get near their heads, doesn't matter if I'm holding them or not, its the nature of the animal itself. There are of course exceptions but not nearly as many as there are headshy snakes.

What does the lease say? Thats the bottom line when you dont own the property.

It's all going to come down to what the lease says.

As mentioned, snakes don't hear like we do. They feel vibrations. So clapping would do nothing for them unless they saw the sudden movement of your hand by them. Then they would react to it.

And I've had snakes, monitors, amphibians and all that stuff throughout my life and I don't think any of them 'loved' me in the way humans define love. They aren't going to go get help if you need it, jump in front of something to save your life or something like that. I do believe though they learn to accept you aren't going to hurt them and that you are their 'comfort' zone. I took my 7' boa who I've had since she was 18" to the vet. She spent the whole time powering her way back to me whenever the vet or nurse took her off me. Once on me, she was calm and would check out the vet. Now do I think that's love? No. That's my snake being in an unfamiliar environment and me being the safety 'tree'.

And at the risk of sounding rude, why are you driving around with a snake around your neck?! Very dangerous and irresponsible as a reptile owner. They aren't dogs.

And the snake cant be away from you....again at the risk of sounding rude, I believe you are projecting your feelings into this animal which I guarantee doesn't feel the same. I bet you could give it to someone else who knows how to take care of snakes and it would do just fine. I have read though that some female boas that are kept very long with an original owner and then given to someone else, will become defensive and not want to eat. I attribute this to again, being in an unfamiliar environment.

Anyways, don't be like those people you read about that have a snake that likes to sleep with them, take showers with them. go for walks with them and stuff. Sure they might like to ride on you and go outside as I know my 7' girl likes to go outside but I know she wouldn't want to sleep with me or take a shower with me or go to the mall lol.

Good luck with the landlord but bottom line, like others have said, it depends whats in your lease.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

As mentioned, snakes don't hear like we do. They feel vibrations. So clapping would do nothing for them unless they saw the sudden movement of your hand by them. Then they would react to it.

And I've had snakes, monitors, amphibians and all that stuff throughout my life and I don't think any of them 'loved' me in the way humans define love. They aren't going to go get help if you need it, jump in front of something to save your life or something like that. I do believe though they learn to accept you aren't going to hurt them and that you are their 'comfort' zone. I took my 7' boa who I've had since she was 18" to the vet. She spent the whole time powering her way back to me whenever the vet or nurse took her off me. Once on me, she was calm and would check out the vet. Now do I think that's love? No. That's my snake being in an unfamiliar environment and me being the safety 'tree'.

And at the risk of sounding rude, why are you driving around with a snake around your neck?! Very dangerous and irresponsible as a reptile owner. They aren't dogs.

And the snake cant be away from you....again at the risk of sounding rude, I believe you are projecting your feelings into this animal which I guarantee doesn't feel the same. I bet you could give it to someone else who knows how to take care of snakes and it would do just fine. I have read though that some female boas that are kept very long with an original owner and then given to someone else, will become defensive and not want to eat. I attribute this to again, being in an unfamiliar environment.

Anyways, don't be like those people you read about that have a snake that likes to sleep with them, take showers with them. go for walks with them and stuff. Sure they might like to ride on you and go outside as I know my 7' girl likes to go outside but I know she wouldn't want to sleep with me or take a shower with me or go to the mall lol.

Good luck with the landlord but bottom line, like others have said, it depends whats in your lease.

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100% this. Projecting feelings onto an animal not exactly capable of reciprocating them is the reason we hear sad stories of animals being hurt or lost so often.

Verbal agreements with the bldg. owner/ mgt. mean NOTHING. I knew a guy once in an apt. complex with a German shephard puppy. All above board, and everyone OK with it, until...the complex was sold. Wasn't in the lease, so he and the dog had to go. Fortunately, the maintenance employees stuck up for this guy, and backed up his story, so he was able to get out of his lease w/o extra financial penalties. He was lucky.

When you sit down to sign a lease, write in what you want/need for your own interests. It's OK to negotiate! Make sure you ink it in on the lease, next to the applicable paragraphs, and make sure the landlord/mgr. is aware of your changes. Best if they initial the changes. This protects everybody. I've changed a year long lease to six months, and I've included my dog in the lease, inked in right on the lease, and at the time of signing the lease. Landlord was fine with that - everything was upfront, and clearly established.

City ordinances are one thing, your lease is another, it's a private property you signed a lease and you have to abide by that lease, so if you signed a lease that says no snakes or likely no exotic animals it does not matter what the property manager says, what prevails is the piece of paper that you signed.

As for getting your snake to become an animal therapy too many people are now doing this for the wrong reasons when they start having issues with their landlord for example that is abusing the system IMO, if you needed a therapy animal why didn't you have the paperwork saying so before having issues?

Verbal agreements in any real estate transaction, whether a rental or purchase, mean absolutely nothing. If it wasn't written down it never happened.

Usually leases prohibit activities rather than permit them. What exactly does your lease state about animals and/or pets?

Given the length of time you've lived at the complex you're likely on a month-to-month lease so your landlord can also do the following to get you out even if your snake is a designated ESA:
- Require a new lease with a "no snakes" clause starting as of a future date, and if you don't sign it then you will receive an official termination of your current lease with a notice to vacate (30-60 days) before they start eviction proceedings.
- Require a pet deposit.
- Jack up your rent.

Personally I'd start packing.

Here's the thing though, if I get Harvey established as an emotional support animal, they cannot legally do anything with him. That's what the law says in my state. Landlords have to allow him. My appt is one hour away.

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Originally Posted by Merriah

Here's the thing though, if I get Harvey established as an emotional support animal, they cannot legally do anything with him. That's what the law says in my state. Landlords have to allow him. My appt is one hour away.

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Is this really an emotional support animal? Or are you trying to abuse the system?

Sounds like system abuse to me.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Sounds like system abuse to me.

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If this is legitimately a support animal, which I'd be surprised to learn, than I say the OP has a case. However, it seems like an unethical ploy to abuse/beat the system. If this is the case, it looks bad for others who are trying to obtain service animals and support animals and I think the OP would be better off simply finding a new home for herself and her snake.

Emotional support animals require documentation from your doctor, and it's not a straight cut and dry thing. Generally speaking, you must already be officially diagnosed on paper with a maladaptive mental or physical disorder that interferes with your day to day life, and then you have to establish with your doc that yes, having an emotional support animal will help mitigate some of the adverse effects of that condition. And then your doc will sign official paperwork stating this that you can take to your landlord, and it will only ever apply to one (1) animal. Generally, things go smoothest when you bring up this possibility with your landlord FIRST, THEN go complete the paperwork with your doctor, THEN present the paperwork, THEN go get your animal, so that everyone is on the same page and following along with each step. Until you have that signed document in hand (which can take weeks to get, depending on your doc and where you live) you have to abide by the language of your lease, and if the lease says no pets/no exotics, the landlord can enforce this according to the terms of your lease, up to additional fees and/or eviction.

If you manage to get away with that, expect future difficulties with this landlord. His viewpoint WILL be that you abused the system, and also that you took advantage of him. If you can't work this out in a straight forward, and amicable manner, you are probably better off finding a new place, and getting the animal written in on a new lease.

Most people are willing to make some accommodations. However, no one likes surprises that aren't in their favour (esp. after a contract has been signed), and no one appreciates it when the law is used against them as a bludgeon.

One other thought too, and I'm not out to beat anyone up about personal decisions, but I'm not sure how wise it is to start a paper trail (out of possibly mere convenience) regarding mental health issues. Regardless of what HIPPA (or whatever the letters are) says, our medical records are not secure, and may increasingly be considered public information.

That may not be a good documented history to have if someone might later wish to purchase firearms, apply for conceal carry, join the military, get a job related security clearance, etc.

Myself, I wouldn't go down that road unless I NEEDED to.

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Originally Posted by distaff

One other thought too, and I'm not out to beat anyone up about personal decisions, but I'm not sure how wise it is to start a paper trail (out of possibly mere convenience) regarding mental health issues. Regardless of what HIPPA (or whatever the letters are) says, our medical records are not secure, and may increasingly be considered public information.

That may not be a good documented history to have if someone might later wish to purchase firearms, apply for conceal carry, join the military, etc.

Myself, I wouldn't go down that road unless I NEEDED to.

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When it comes to the purchase of a firearm, mental health and mental illness are 2 very different things. It may sound like splitting hairs but they are very much different. I have anxiety but it doesn't prevent me from purchasing firearms and it's still being battled today over whether it's an illness or health issue depending on who you talk to.

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Originally Posted by Merriah

Here's the thing though, if I get Harvey established as an emotional support animal, they cannot legally do anything with him. That's what the law says in my state. Landlords have to allow him. My appt is one hour away.

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Do NOT, abuse the system. As someone who has gone through the battle to have an emotional support animal and also been there for friends and patients trying to have their dog, cat and even a case of a ferret labeled as an emotional support animal, you are walking down a very unsteady bridge and chances are, your landlord has the means to challenge you in court. I'm sure you are an animal lover but it sounds like you are trying to abuse the system just so you can keep your ball python and this is why we have so many problems with various systems and cases of fraud.

Not trying to attack you but you have no right to take advantage of a system that others GENUINELY use just because you may have had a verbal agreement with your landlord.

I win. I've gotten my letter. They can't take him away.

So. Not to put a downer on things but. Your landlord/property manager was never able to "take" your snake in the first place. The letter allows you to legally keep the snake without being fined/evicted. That doesn't mean your landlord can't do other things to make your tenancy miserable. I would not be thumbing my nose going "neener neener" if I was in your position. And don't expect to be getting a good referral from this place if it does come to the point where you want/need to move, either. All actions have consequences.

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Originally Posted by Merriah

I win. I've gotten my letter. They can't take him away.

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Hope you are proud [emoji57]



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So sad.

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Well, that's assuming also that your landlord doesn't take you to court to contest the 'win'.

And like mentioned, your landlord can now have a 'vendetta' for you and just make your life there miserable by nitpicking everything, having lots of inspections etc. It's kind of like don't piss your waiter or waitress off cause they got access to your food before you see it lol.

And it sounds like getting an animal set up as an emotional companion whatever is pretty freakin easy lol. I see this law going to way of the dodo soon if it's this easy and exploited a lot. Personally if I was your landlord and you pulled this shenanigans on me, I would make it my job to put you under a microscope when it came to the lease. The slightest infraction and I would be throwing you out. But that's me, I don't like being 'played'.

1/2 and a half for a support animal???
SMH.......
Does this one come when you call it too?

It's not as easy as it sounds, in my experience, and the only thing it does is say you can have AN animal at your residence if normally you could not. In most states (though I haven't looked at Minnesota specifically) it does not, say, prevent your landlord from asking for a pet deposit and/or extra rent as compensation. It also doesn't prevent them from saying, "okay you can have a pet, but I don't approve that one". It's not a catch-all get out of jail free card with regards to keeping animals. My friend, who has a legitimate need for a companion animal for multiple reasons, still went to her property manager first, and even with the full support and encouragement of that manager, she still had regulations she had to abide by (she wanted to adopt a cat, and the cat is required to be indoors only or otherwise on a leash, can't have incontinence issues, can't make noise enough to disturb the neighbors, etc). Most people don't actually read the law or understand what it does and doesn't make possible.

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Originally Posted by Merriah

I win. I've gotten my letter. They can't take him away.

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Just wow... sorry,but that was clearly abuse of the system in my eyes. Disgusting actually. That was under handed.

If I was your landlord I wld definately now have U in my radar... till U move. I wld not want U around now bc who knows what other crap U may pull down the road.

I seriously hope U dont plan on draggin that snake to a grocery or food market now... reptiles dnt belong in any store of tht type. And I hope you are now ready to deal w others in public who may have a fear of that snake... cause its gonna happen. And really.. a snake shld not be dragged all ovr and thought to be An emotional support animal.. esp a bp..they get scared.. and lack of proper environment bc you tote it around cld cause health issues that will kill it potentially.

Chalk this off as just another abuse of the system. Brilliant!!! Not!

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Lizardlicks..she got it done easily where she is... so apparently its not that hard where she is..



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She got the letter from her doctor. That's not the only part of the equation. Assuming it's a win is a bit premature and short sighted IMO. If that's really the end of it, she got lucky with a landlord who decided fighting wasn't worth the hassle, and in my experience, property owners/managers are tenacious sons of guns.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I seriously hope U dont plan on draggin that snake to a grocery or food market now... reptiles dnt belong in any store of tht type. And I hope you are now ready to deal w others in public who may have a fear of that snake... cause its gonna happen. And really.. a snake shld not be dragged all ovr and thought to be An emotional support animal.. esp a bp..they get scared.. and lack of proper environment bc you tote it around cld cause health issues that will kill it potentially.

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Emotional support animals are different from trained service animals. An ESA has no privileges regarding going out into the public. Getting an ESA registered is about being able to keep the animal at your home. Only dogs can be recognized as service animals and be allowed into stores to help people with disabilities. An ESA is very different. Hopefully the OP knows that...

ADA: Service Animals

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

And it sounds like getting an animal set up as an emotional companion whatever is pretty freakin easy lol. I see this law going to way of the dodo soon if it's this easy and exploited a lot.

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There's a low income apt building local to me that doesn't allow pets but they have to allow one ESA and loads of people there have cats because they go to a therapist and can get a letter for one easily. It's well known and super exploited. Just like all the people who claim their dogs are service animals to take them all over, puts a bad name on hobbyists and pet owners everywhere. Hurts the people who actually need it as well.

Stands to reason that, if a person is regularly seeing a therapist, they probably have something going on with them that they need to see that therapist for. Also, turns out, a lot of people who are low income have mental illness or physical disabilities. Wow, crazy, right? Whodathunk! :rolleyes:

But nah, I'm sure it's just those darn, lazy poors gaming the system.

I'd like to point out that ball pythons are a totally valid option as an emotional support animal. If the responsibility of caring for your pet snake helps keep you from killing yourself then thats a good reason to have it as an ESA. Not to mention that some people find handing docile snakes very soothing and it could help some individuals with anxiety disorders.

Emotional support animals have their place and do help a lot of people. It sucks that there are bad apples out there giving them a bad rap.

What has really happened to the world we live in???

Am I dreaming or did I really just read all this, [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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I love my animals. Caring for them and spending time handling them, watching them, etc... is a huge stress relief for me. As a recovering alcoholic and drug addict it is important for me to keep myself busy. Idle hands don't work well for me. Luckily, my passion for animals was reignited a few years ago after I had a few years of clean/sober time. For me, my animals can be seen as "therapeutic" I suppose. That being said, if I truly felt that I was in need of an Emotional Support Animal that would have been established long ago.
The way the OP went about this seems like an underhanded, deceitful, unethical abuse of a great system that is truly there to help people actually in need. Deciding to go get a Dr note because the living situation changed seems just plain wrong to me. It's like going to the food bank and taking food from the poor because your grocery store stopped carrying your favorite cookies.

I have bipolar disorder was just recently diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder a month ago. I live in a house that we lease from our landlord through a property management company. There are some days I feel a service animal would be very beneficial but do I go under my landlord's nose and pull a fast one on him, no I don't. I have a dog as a pet and he is wonderful and my landlord knows we have a dog and he is ok with it. I see no need to be sneaky or deceitful like that.

Not only does what the OP did make other herp keepers look bad but I feel it has a bad reflection on people like myself that have legitimate mental illness and would actually benefit from an ESA. So shame on her.

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

I have bipolar disorder was just recently diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder a month ago. I live in a house that we lease from our landlord through a property management company. There are some days I feel a service animal would be very beneficial but do I go under my landlord's nose and pull a fast one on him, no I don't. I have a dog as a pet and he is wonderful and my landlord knows we have a dog and he is ok with it. I see no need to be sneaky or deceitful like that.

Not only does what the OP did make other herp keepers look bad but I feel it has a bad reflection on people like myself that have legitimate mental illness and would actually benefit from an ESA. So shame on her.

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Having just done a bit of research on OP from previous posts...everything is falling on deaf ears it seems. They advocate the use of mineral oil rubs on snakes...refuse to equip their bps with 2 hides because they want to see them so security of the snake be damned...and they personify their snakes entirely, ENTIRELY too much (they are trained, snuggle, come when they call etc etc etc...) No responses are ever given to the real advice from the pro's on here, just more nonsensical posts one after the other....

Damn, there are a bunch of good people on this forum... me? I read the OP's first 2 posts and ran for cover (quickly recognizing the signs of a trainwreck)
Unfortunately came back to the thread to see what 4-pages were about...

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

I have bipolar disorder was just recently diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder a month ago. I live in a house that we lease from our landlord through a property management company. There are some days I feel a service animal would be very beneficial but do I go under my landlord's nose and pull a fast one on him, no I don't. I have a dog as a pet and he is wonderful and my landlord knows we have a dog and he is ok with it. I see no need to be sneaky or deceitful like that.

Not only does what the OP did make other herp keepers look bad but I feel it has a bad reflection on people like myself that have legitimate mental illness and would actually benefit from an ESA. So shame on her.

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i have an anxiety disorder that interferes with my life/daily tasks/work. i will be looking into an ESA eventually when my life is more stable and i have the capacity to care for more than my snakes. my girl friend has her dog as an ESA due to a serious health issue + depression and got her registered as soon as she was ready; she took her dog through a training course. IMO if you needed an ESA you would have already had an animal registered before it came to the point of possibly losing an animal.

honestly this is upsetting.

Notice how she's vanished since she "got her letter"? It's as if she wanted to throw it in everyone's face that she could get the letter and then ran off. I'm willing to bet the letter is from someone who hands them out like candy and didn't bother to probe for the reasoning or justification. People like this user are the ones I can't stand.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Stands to reason that, if a person is regularly seeing a therapist, they probably have something going on with them that they need to see that therapist for. Also, turns out, a lot of people who are low income have mental illness or physical disabilities. Wow, crazy, right? Whodathunk! :rolleyes:

But nah, I'm sure it's just those darn, lazy poors gaming the system.

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Working in EMS for years, we saw so many people taking advantage of medicaid, the 911 service, etc. It's not just the drug seekers who would call us but we had a frequent flyer who would call, wanting to go to the hospital because it was close to her residence. She treated it like a glorified taxi service then when she was finally blacklisted by the department, she pulled the race card, threatened a dispatcher, had her friend call and fake an emergency but the address was blacklisted as well and she was met by law enforcement. Same person was exploiting free clinic services (who knew that could be done!) and the mental health portion of the clinic just to keep her benefits.

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Originally Posted by salt

I'd like to point out that ball pythons are a totally valid option as an emotional support animal. If the responsibility of caring for your pet snake helps keep you from killing yourself then thats a good reason to have it as an ESA. Not to mention that some people find handing docile snakes very soothing and it could help some individuals with anxiety disorders.

Emotional support animals have their place and do help a lot of people. It sucks that there are bad apples out there giving them a bad rap.

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I don't think people are disputing the validity of a snake being an ESA. I've seen a ferret as an ESA before and it was very evident when he wasn't with our patient and how they were. It's the fact that this person is flaunting about how they got their letter and they can't take the snake away.


I personally hope this landlord makes life miserable for this person because this is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Stands to reason that, if a person is regularly seeing a therapist, they probably have something going on with them that they need to see that therapist for. Also, turns out, a lot of people who are low income have mental illness or physical disabilities. Wow, crazy, right? Whodathunk! :rolleyes:

But nah, I'm sure it's just those darn, lazy poors gaming the system.

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Oh please-I'm talking about people I actually know who publicly admit this is how to game the system and recommend others do the same, usually they get the kitten before they bother to get the letter but who cares, responsibility what's that? There's no shortage of people who openly do this and feel no shame-hence this thread itself and several other that have been on here with the same bent. I see the pets they get, I see the pets they mistreat and dump and you will never convince me they "need" these animals.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Oh please-I'm talking about people I actually know who publicly admit this is how to game the system and recommend others do the same, usually they get the kitten before they bother to get the letter but who cares, responsibility what's that? There's no shortage of people who openly do this and feel no shame-hence this thread itself and several other that have been on here with the same bent. I see the pets they get, I see the pets they mistreat and dump and you will never convince me they "need" these animals.

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I too kno ppl who have openly admitted to playing the system for benefits they wldnt normally qualify for and various other forms of cheating the system..

Those are the ppl that irritate me to no end. Ppl who cheat the "system" for their benefit disgust me.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I too kno ppl who have openly admitted to playing the system for benefits they wldnt normally qualify for and various other forms of cheating the system..

Those are the ppl that irritate me to no end. Ppl who cheat the "system" for their benefit disgust me.

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Those that cheat the system are ultimately stealing from those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Merriah

I win. I've gotten my letter. They can't take him away.

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People like you shouldn't be allowed to own reptiles. You make the rest of us look bad and it seems like you don't take very good care of your snakes nor do you respect others.


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