Breeding Standards

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Originally Posted by StillBP

The problem here is the if you sell a $300 snake at $250 then I mark mine at $200 someone else does$175.so you go $150 Now that becomes the standard price everyone starts using because someone sold one. so we have essentially cut the value in half in a few days. The price will not go back up because of the amount of people producing the same morph. It will only go down more. And this is why a exemplary example of a pastel can be bought for next to nothing. Too many people looking for the cheapest snake instead of the best example. And too many breeders willing to sell for whatever they can get. This is why I only have exceptional examples of the morphs I want to breed. And all lower quality animal will be found pet homes not sold to someone looking to breed

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Yes. This is the "problem". Any fool can breed ball pythons and stuff ends up being bred that probably should not. The buyer also has a lot to do with this. I have found when the seller turns into the buyer their principles tend to change. I talk a hard line about free market, but privately I have principles. You can correlate the undercutters to Walmart. Anyone that has studied economics or runs a business knows that the way Walmart does business is detrimental to everyone but Walmart. I refuse to shop there on principle. I will go pay more somewhere else. There are not many people that will voluntarily pay more for anything. In reality how many people know a quality snake from a non quality snake? Most of even the most experienced among us cannot even tell certain combos apart. I include myself in this. Compound that with quality is individual taste when buying something on solely how it looks.

If you want to keep prices at a reasonable rates, you cannot price fix. What can be done has not been done. A quality gauge must be established that everyone can agree on. Accurate descriptions must be created for every morph and the definition of a perfect example must be written so that a quality gauge can be established for an individual animal. This would be a very difficult task in itself. Getting breeders to agree and participate would be even more difficult. Kinda like herding cats I imagine. I know this system works. I offer to create the infrastructure and coordinate it. How many want to participate? I am betting not many if any. I would bet Brian, Kevin and the other biggies would want nothing to do with this because they are used to controlling the market. Anyone want to go head to head with them? Most probably not.

Long story short, don't complain, fix, otherwise we are all just Walmart shoppers.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If you want to keep prices at a reasonable rates, you cannot price fix. What can be done has not been done. A quality gauge must be established that everyone can agree on. Accurate descriptions must be created for every morph and the definition of a perfect example must be written so that a quality gauge can be established for an individual animal. This would be a very difficult task in itself. Getting breeders to agree and participate would be even more difficult. Kinda like herding cats I imagine. I know this system works. I offer to create the infrastructure and coordinate it. How many want to participate? I am betting not many if any. I would bet Brian, Kevin and the other biggies would want nothing to do with this because they are used to controlling the market. Anyone want to go head to head with them? Most probably not.

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I'm very curious about this. How do you propose to put a quality gauge on living works of art? It's hard enough putting quality gauges on non-living art pieces!

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I'm very curious about this. How do you propose to put a quality gauge on living works of art? It's hard enough putting quality gauges on non-living art pieces!

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I agree. It's just like pieds. They are high priced. In demand. Everyone likes them. Personally the patchwork scales of the pied are very unappealing to me. Some people look at the snakes and the pale muted colors appeal to them so they will pay more for those. Some people look at the snakes and want the bold lines and bright poppin colors so will pay more for these. It's hard to gauge something when everyone is holding a different meter.

Why does it need to scale, though? We aren't talking about a snuggie or some other easily mass produced consumable. The market for animals is a different beast than the one for a factory produced product that you want to put in every house hold. I feel trying to apply the same principles is an error. Observe: as mention in a different thread, the demand of the ball python pet trade is such that even with as many animals as we produce and put on the market, suppliers still import wild caught or captive hatched wild gathered animals to meet that need. AND YET the practice of under cutting has rapidly devalued many morphs. Spider and pinstripe in particular are still wildly popular and sought out as pets, but they are nearly the same price as a breeding weight normal in direct opposition to the demand.

Now look at other animal producers outside of the reptile hobby. Dogs for example. Sure, anybody can throw out a puppy with words like OFA certification and AKC registration for $5-600 and get a buyer, but someone who selects for quality and health, and takes care of their reputation can get $1500 for the same breed of dog without any effort, often with sold out waiting lists, and no need to undercut because they put out the better product and producing the same size litters, for the same number of litters a year. In the end, you can run your business how you want to, but if you can get a better price for your animals by being patient and persistent and giving attention to detail, wouldn't that make more sense?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I'm very curious about this. How do you propose to put a quality gauge on living works of art? It's hard enough putting quality gauges on non-living art pieces!

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Eric, if you are really interested, I will attempt to put my jumbled thought processes into something coherent. I do not pretend to have all the answers by any means, I also am not by any means the most experienced person with these animals on this board, and everything would be up for productive discussion. What I do know for sure is that this has been done before. In my business there are known patterns to apply to problems. This is not a new problem therefore there is an existing pattern to solve it even if it requires a little tweaking.

I definitely agree on creating a quality standard though. Nearly every pet trade hobby has an association of breeders and a breed standard. While we don't have breeds, we do have morphs, and you might not be able to ascribe a value judgement to an animal based one whether someone likes it or not - as pointed out, some people like different things, and to return to the dog allegory for a second, I love a well bred, straight-back German Shepard and loathe toy breeds - it may be reasonably doable to create a morph standard based on traits that morph should have. It could possibly revitalized interest in single gene morphs even, if breeder start a focus on selecting one or two single gene morphs to improve the quality of.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

I agree. It's just like pieds. They are high priced. In demand. Everyone likes them. Personally the patchwork scales of the pied are very unappealing to me. Some people look at the snakes and the pale muted colors appeal to them so they will pay more for those. Some people look at the snakes and want the bold lines and bright poppin colors so will pay more for these. It's hard to gauge something when everyone is holding a different meter.

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I don't care for pieds either. I don't like hypos. That doesn't matter in order to rate them. I, unlike most men I know, do not have a facination with blondes. I prefer asians. This does not keep me from rating Bo Derek as a perfect 10 even if I am personally not interested. I picked her as an example because I actually physically ran right into her at a horse show. Nice lady. LOL

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

I agree. It's just like pieds. They are high priced. In demand. Everyone likes them. Personally the patchwork scales of the pied are very unappealing to me. Some people look at the snakes and the pale muted colors appeal to them so they will pay more for those. Some people look at the snakes and want the bold lines and bright poppin colors so will pay more for these. It's hard to gauge something when everyone is holding a different meter.

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It's a minefield really . So many of the popular new faded ( ghost ?) morphs leave me cold as they just look like normals in the shed mode !?

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I definitely agree on creating a quality standard though. Nearly every pet trade hobby has an association of breeders and a breed standard. While we don't have breeds, we do have morphs, and you might not be able to ascribe a value judgement to an animal based one whether someone likes it or not - as pointed out, some people like different things, and to return to the dog allegory for a second, I love a well bred, straight-back German Shepard and loathe toy breeds - it may be reasonably doable to create a morph standard based on traits that morph should have. It could possibly revitalized interest in single gene morphs even, if breeder start a focus on selecting one or two single gene morphs to improve the quality of.

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This is exactly the mindset I believe required to accomplish something like this. You are very, very close to where I am in thought on this matter.

To be fair, there are these types of evaluations for all types of animals - dog shows, rat shows, mouse shows, chinchilla shows, cat shows etc. All breeds and 'morphs' of these animals do have specific written standards they are evaluated against and the 'best' one gets the prize.

Now is this a good thing? It's been both good and bad for many of these species. Some of the breeding for these standards have improved the quality and then some have introduced and increased some very serious genetic health problems. Overall I personally wouldn't be thrilled to have the same thing for snakes. But it's certainly possible to do. Each morph very much could have a written description of the generally desired traits. It won't be to everyone's preference, but the same is true for all the other animals that have these standards.

E.g. Pastels: must be bright with no browning out and distinct 'flames' Pieds: must have 60-75% white and good contrast BELs: must be as clean white as possible with no yellowing or browning

Overall I don't have the same kind of strong feeling about morphs in general as many people and was actually originally looking for a normal for my first. I like some of the morphs and would consider getting something like a BEL some day, but it's not that important to me. But if you look at the example of many other animals for how do you get a higher price for the "same" snake, the easiest answer looks like establishing a show circuit. The other, less simple answer, is more educated buyers. Ribbons are more concrete and easier for people to understand than pastel vs lemon pastel vs citrus pastel or what have you. Basically all of the dogs that are going from sold out waiting lists are from breeders that show their dogs, or have show dog lines. I believe it's difficult to establish credibility as a breeder from outside the show circuit entirely and understandably so.

Perhaps we should start a new thread topic? I have ideas, but I think this thread has gotten pretty far from the original question haha.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Eric, if you are really interested, I will attempt to put my jumbled thought processes into something coherent.

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Certainly. Throw it up in a separate thread though, as this one feel like it's veering off course from its original intent. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I definitely agree on creating a quality standard though. Nearly every pet trade hobby has an association of breeders and a breed standard. While we don't have breeds, we do have morphs, and you might not be able to ascribe a value judgement to an animal based one whether someone likes it or not - as pointed out, some people like different things, and to return to the dog allegory for a second, I love a well bred, straight-back German Shepard and loathe toy breeds - it may be reasonably doable to create a morph standard based on traits that morph should have. It could possibly revitalized interest in single gene morphs even, if breeder start a focus on selecting one or two single gene morphs to improve the quality of.

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I agree that quality should be the standard (whether formal or informal). Comparing dogs to the ball python hobby, though, is like apples and oranges. For comparison's sake, in 1990 there were basically only three ball python morphs total. Dogs have been domesticated for ~15,000 years and have been kept as pets for ~2000 years (from my quick Google-fu). What kind of requirements did the AKC and CKC have at the beginning of the first millennium? I'm not saying that it can't, or shouldn't, be done. I'm simply saying that the dog folks have quite the head-start on us. :D

If it was up to me, I would put the original focus on single gene animals.These lines would be tracked just like horses. In theory combos could be rated in part on their parents. All could be rated on things like brightness, crisp lines etc. For some combos things like a high brightness rating could be a negative or a positive. It is all doable, but only if people are more interested in creating a solution instead of fighting. If you start out thinking that there is no way to rate art, then a solution will not expose itself. There is of course a way, but some of us may have to admit that our animals are not as perfect as we believe they are. The type of mind that needs to work on this is one that can admit to themselves and others that while in my heart my spouse is a 10 to others he/she is actually a 5.

Oops sorry. I will start a new thread when I have it put together.

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutations can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not. Too many variable in patterns and or colors in some mutation.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutation can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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There are many different ways to look at things. People complain about how to assign values to things that are subjective and that they are getting undercut. The solution I put on the table has been done before in other "industries", and it can be done again. Should it be done is another matter entirely.

However, for anyone to say that they produce quality animals but then are unable to say why they are quality animals does not add up.

I am in no shape way or form dependent on my animals for income. I will have my animals regardless of "the market" or if someone else thinks they are not attractive. The ones that I have decided to sell, sell. I have animals in my collection that even I think are ugly. I am not afraid of getting rated. This thread is about business though and business I know. There is nothing special about ball pythons that makes them different from any other animal that is bought and sold. Every business changes and evolves. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. I have prospered in my primary business for 25 years because I can adapt and I have a good reputation.

I have offered suggestions because it sounded like what people were asking for is price fixing and that is a huge no-no.

I also thought this would be a topic that would be good for open debate, but maybe not yet. When I have my thoughts together I will either contact people through PM or start a new thread if we can be productive that way.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

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I was thinking about this - it's my general opinion, and I'm fairly certain it would be the opinion of most keepers/breeders that I'm aware of. As Eric said, these are living works of art, and I don't know many artists that like to work within set parameters.

Then I started thinking about generations. You here all this talk about millennials and the differences they're bringing to the business world and such - I'm wondering if we'll see a shift in our hobby with a new generation of snake owners and breeders? People more focused on boundaries and parameters, and less focused on the free market?

BTW, I'm a millennial (by two years apparently) so say what you will :D There's a lot of things I don't like about my generation, but a lot of things I do, too. I don't even know if this is true, but it's something to ponder.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutations can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not. Too many variable in patterns and or colors in some mutation.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

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I'm neither a breeder nor even particularly invested in morphs in general, so I don't really have skin in the game here, but I'm really curious as to how you define "high quality." Is it based on appearance still?

I find it a bit wierd to be fair the thought of putting a "standard" into play. There is such a diversity within each morph itself that finding a beginning would be ridiculous for a start but at what point would the line become drawn?

To compare one albino to the next for example - I like high contrast, you prefer low contrast. I prefer high white pied, you prefer low. So which one becomes the standard?

Its a more or less random process and, despite breeders best efforts, some things genetically cannot be dominated outside of a lab.

Its kind of like ( for me anyway ) saying that when 2 newborn babies are placed side by side, does the one with the more round face become more "standard" than the one with the more traingular face? Blonde hair over brown etc I know that is a VERY extreme view of the situation but its how I feel.

The true diversity within the genetics and visual aspects of royals is what I love about this hobby. To make one snake more appealing than the other by placing a standard on them just doesn't work for me although I understand the hypothesis behind the reasoning xx

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

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How do you evaluate "quality" without a standard though?

Some are easy, like pastels that don't brown out over time - and there are a few of those and they should command a premium price.

Similarly if a line of black pastel or cinnamon could be identified that did not have the duck-billing or kinking issues, or a line of spider that didn't wobble, then that's another potential standard.

Moving in this direction creates added value for owners, no different from other industries. As an example a successful racehorse or show horse will have a higher value as a performer and breeder than the backyard hack used for the occasional trail ride. Both critters have minimum care requirements, one is just more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

I'm neither a breeder nor even particularly invested in morphs in general, so I don't really have skin in the game here, but I'm really curious as to how you define "high quality." Is it based on appearance still?

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If someone attempts to define high quality it would upset the people that didn't meet the parameters and make those happy that did meet them. This is unavoidable. I will get into the how's later but I actually have to do some real work right now.

And no. I don't think quality only applies to appearance. There would be categories of quality. For example, an animal that does not have feeding issues is worth way more to me than one that does. It doesn't do me any good personally to have a potential breeder that takes me four years to get to size. Also one of the few complaints about balls is the way they feed. I would rather sell animals that feed well than ones that don't especially to someone new in the hobby. Also animals with attitude problems would be worth less in my book.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

If someone attempts to define high quality it would upset the people that didn't meet the parameters and make those happy that did meet them. This is unavoidable. I will get into the how's later but I actually have to do some real work right now.

And no. I don't think quality only applies to appearance. There would be categories of quality. For example, an animal that does not have feeding issues is worth way more to me than one that does. It doesn't do me any good personally to have a potential breeder that takes me four years to get to size. Also one of the few complaints about balls is the way they feed. I would rather sell animals that feed well than ones that don't especially to someone new in the hobby. Also animals with attitude problems would be worth less in my book.

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I think I was more assuming that certain things would be taken for granted e.g. health. Also, funny thing on attitude problems - last expo I went to they had a snake specifically labeled "a**hole corn" for half the price of their other corn snakes. I looked for personality rather than appearance, but it was still a bit tempting because it was hilarious.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

How do you evaluate "quality" without a standard though?

Some are easy, like pastels that don't brown out over time - and there are a few of those and they should command a premium price.

Similarly if a line of black pastel or cinnamon could be identified that did not have the duck-billing or kinking issues, or a line of spider that didn't wobble, then that's another potential standard.

Moving in this direction creates added value for owners, no different from other industries. As an example a successful racehorse or show horse will have a higher value as a performer and breeder than the backyard hack used for the occasional trail ride. Both critters have minimum care requirements, one is just more expensive.

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This I agree with 100% ^^^^^.

And BTW board members feel free to slam me if you want, I am not thin skinned. I knew I might cause a little upheaval with this, but the intent is to be productive. I personally would like to be able to say I have a quality animal and then be able to articulate why.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

Also, funny thing on attitude problems - last expo I went to they had a snake specifically labeled "a**hole corn" for half the price of their other corn snakes. I looked for personality rather than appearance, but it was still a bit tempting because it was hilarious.

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I am actually a sucker for that kind of stuff. I look on it as a challenge to see if it can be "fixed".

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

I am actually a sucker for that kind of stuff. I look on it as a challenge to see if it can be "fixed".

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I felt the same way but we have plenty of snakes and are still getting the problem child dumerils boa fixed up so "I want this jerk snake to see if I can make him not a jerk" probably wasn't going to fly.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

How do you evaluate "quality" without a standard though?

Some are easy, like pastels that don't brown out over time - and there are a few of those and they should command a premium price.

Similarly if a line of black pastel or cinnamon could be identified that did not have the duck-billing or kinking issues, or a line of spider that didn't wobble, then that's another potential standard.

Moving in this direction creates added value for owners, no different from other industries. As an example a successful racehorse or show horse will have a higher value as a performer and breeder than the backyard hack used for the occasional trail ride. Both critters have minimum care requirements, one is just more expensive.

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Originally Posted by Kcl

I'm neither a breeder nor even particularly invested in morphs in general, so I don't really have skin in the game here, but I'm really curious as to how you define "high quality." Is it based on appearance still?

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Again high quality and beauty is in the eye of the beholder (both vendor and buyer)

Who is to say that a clown that is busy is low quality and a reduced one should be a standard and therefore quality or vice versa, trying to impose standards will not work and is ridiculous considering the variation in mutations including animals from the same clutch.

My standards are my own I would not impose them on anyone nor do I wish anyone imposing their standards on me, there is something with everything in Ball Pythons no matter what you like, people should have their OWN standards (also many do not which is why people often ask whether or not they should by a particular animal.)

If you have an animal and you think it is a quality animal you can sell it for whatever you feel it is worth if you don't believe in your animals you can give them away or sell them cheap it's up to each an everyone of us but establishing a standard and dictating prices based on that standard is just silly, and not like people have not brought up the idea over the last 10 years.

Keeping things as they are now allows for breeders to pick out say a pastel. This pastel is not like the rest. It's a bit duller. the pattern is slightly different. Because it's different they then add an extra $100 or so to the price tag. A snake that is not a good representative of what a pastel should be is now bringing more money than an exemplatory specimen of a pastel because there are no guidlines for the morphs which allows breeders to charge more for animals that are not as genetically sound just because they look different.

I don't think all individual morphs are created equal. You can put 2 single gene pied together and one can blow your mind and one can be blah. It's def a pied but a weak one. Same goes with any morph. That's why you can't just say "insert morph" is worth this much because the quality can vary an awful lot. Just my opinion. I think it's a valid opinion when my hard earned cash is involved. On the other side of the coin I think it's a valid opinion when a breeder has spent years producing a line of stellar animals and wants to be compensated appropriately. I don't think the average end consumer takes into consideration the time, money and dedication that goes into producing quality animals.

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Originally Posted by cletus

I don't think all individual morphs are created equal. You can put 2 single gene pied together and one can blow your mind and one can be blah. It's def a pied but a weak one. Same goes with any morph. That's why you can't just say "insert morph" is worth this much because the quality can vary an awful lot. Just my opinion. I think it's a valid opinion when my hard earned cash is involved. On the other side of the coin I think it's a valid opinion when a breeder has spent years producing a line of stellar animals and wants to be compensated appropriately. I don't think the average end consumer takes into consideration the time, money and dedication that goes into producing quality animals.

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But how do you verify that they are quality animals? Who decides what that quality is? The same people who stand to make the most on selling a non quality animal at a higher price than a quality animal just because it looks different? The big name breeders because they have time and money in the animals? How does your average consumer know what is and what id's not a quality animal when there is nothing to say or prove what that quality is.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

But how do you verify that they are quality animals? Who decides what that quality is? The same people who stand to make the most on selling a non quality animal at a higher price than a quality animal just because it looks different? The big name breeders because they have time and money in the animals? How does your average consumer know what is and what id's not a quality animal when there is nothing to say or prove what that quality is.

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I think you can look at them and tell whether or not they are of quality. Take a clutch of the same morph. Some will look better than others a lot of the time. Those animals stand out and cost more. Buyers have the option of choosing the better looking animals and sellers have the option of charging more money for the better looking ones. "Looks better" is what we are talking about here. It's the paint jobs people are paying for. That's why you can buy an uber healthy normal for 20 bucks.

In my opinion there's no way you can put standards on ball pythons, way too many variations on a theme. That's what makes them so awesome. I could sell pieds all day long and no two would ever be the same.

There's also no way you can price fix either, it's based solely on supply and demand. I've seen prices drop 50% overnight, and I've also seen prices shoot up just as quick. The way that usually happens is that the price plummets, then you'll see tons of adults for sale because people are getting out of the morph because of the price drop. Then awhile later the supply dries up, but a few people hold on to it and produce a handful and jack up the prices again. The more common the morph the less expensive. Right now everyone is rushing to produce clowns, I've already seen prices dropping pretty fast. And the Bamboo morph, tons of babies out there and it seems the prices drop every few weeks.

Hey Stewart, where do you sell snakes at wholesale? I'm curious since I'm ramping up my breeding program and I'm wondering what to do if I get over run with a bunch of baby snakes LOL.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

But how do you verify that they are quality animals? Who decides what that quality is? The same people who stand to make the most on selling a non quality animal at a higher price than a quality animal just because it looks different? The big name breeders because they have time and money in the animals? How does your average consumer know what is and what id's not a quality animal when there is nothing to say or prove what that quality is.

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I'm not sure what's so complicated. It's almost as if you're offended by breeders (big OR small) taking pride in their animals and the work/time they've put in to producing them. To answer your questions, though, sellers only determine the price. It's up to the buyers determine quality and perceived value for themselves with their own eyes and wallets.

If anyone feels that an animal isn't worth what a seller has it priced at, then it really is as simple as not buying it. (mic drop) If that's the case, then there's very little a seller can do to to convince them otherwise. Ultimately, it just isn't worth a seller's time to try since that person isn't the right customer for that animal anyway. In this hobby, as I've said many times before, there really is something for everybody.

For me, a certified statement of quality isn't going to change my mind one single bit if I have no interest in the animal in the first place.

To be a lot cliché, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It's up to the seller to market themselves and their animals to the best of their ability. It's up to the consumers to form their own perceptions of quality and value. When those two circles meet, everybody ends up happy. When they don't, there's no reason to be upset - no one is forcing us to either buy or sell snakes with cool paint jobs. ;)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I'm not sure what's so complicated. It's almost as if you're offended by breeders (big OR small) taking pride in their animals and the work/time they've put in to producing them. To answer your questions, though, sellers only determine the price. It's up to the buyers determine quality and perceived value for themselves with their own eyes and wallets.

If anyone feels that an animal isn't worth what a seller has it priced at, then it really is as simple as not buying it. (mic drop) If that's the case, then there's very little a seller can do to to convince them otherwise. Ultimately, it just isn't worth a seller's time to try since that person isn't the right customer for that animal anyway. In this hobby, as I've said many times before, there really is something for everybody.

For me, a certified statement of quality isn't going to change my mind one single bit if I have no interest in the animal in the first place.

To be a lot cliché, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." It's up to the seller to market themselves and their animals to the best of their ability. It's up to the consumers to form their own perceptions of quality and value. When those two circles meet, everybody ends up happy. When they don't, there's no reason to be upset - no one is forcing us to either buy or sell snakes with cool paint jobs. ;)

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I have to agree here. See the spider Albino ( that started alot of this conversation) I have is in my eyes worth more than I was undercut at so instead of selling her for less than I feel she is worth I put her in my breeder rack. I suppose I could have waited and the right buyer might have come along. But I have no regrets keeping her. And she is going to make some killer babies next season ( she is sitting at 900 g). Personally i think that if you feel the animal is worth no less than X dollars do not sell it for less than X dollars.

I just hate seeing snakes for sell with poor patterning and bad markings at an upscaled price. Add some Fancy words like pixilating, swirled, or one of a kind and charge way to much for a snake that is clearly not a good example of the morph they claim it is. I agree that something should be done if for nothing else than to help the non educated consumers aquire nice healthy animals that are exactly what they are being sold as and not an undesirable defect that someone can decide to over price. A morph standard for each morph would help not only the breeders keep the genes stronger but also help new snake owners know and understand the morph they are purchasing. Right now I hear a lot of people talking about quality animals but no one has yet to say what makes them quality animals.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

I just hate seeing snakes for sell with poor patterning and bad markings at an upscaled price. Add some Fancy words like pixilating, swirled, or one of a kind and charge way to much for a snake that is clearly not a good example of the morph they claim it is. I agree that something should be done if for nothing else than to help the non educated consumers aquire nice healthy animals that are exactly what they are being sold as and not an undesirable defect that someone can decide to over price. A morph standard for each morph would help not only the breeders keep the genes stronger but also help new snake owners know and understand the morph they are purchasing. Right now I hear a lot of people talking about quality animals but no one has yet to say what makes them quality animals.

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What do you think makes a quality animal? Why do you care so much about what the rest of us think are quality animals? Who are you to say that those animals you're talking so much smack about aren't someone else's dream animal? How much do you need to understand about a morph in order to see its beauty? What happens to those animals that don't meet the standard?

Here's my definition: A quality animal is one that makes you stop and smile every single time you see it - even when the rank poo-casso art it just smeared across its enclosure rivals the beauty of the living art smiling back at you.

Honestly, if someone doesn't inherently see the beauty of the animals in this hobby for themselves, I'd be questioning what they're doing in the hobby in the first place - it's not like ball pythons make great companions.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

What do you think makes a quality animal? Why do you care so much about what the rest of us think are quality animals? Who are you to say that those animals you're talking so much smack about aren't someone else's dream animal? How much do you need to understand about a morph in order to see its beauty? What happens to those animals that don't meet the standard?

Here's my definition: A quality animal is one that makes you stop and smile every single time you see it - even when the rank poo-casso art it just smeared across its enclosure rivals the beauty of the living art smiling back at you.

Honestly, if someone doesn't inherently see the beauty of the animals in this hobby for themselves, I'd be questioning what they're doing in the hobby in the first place - it's not like ball pythons make great companions.

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Exactly this!

I like my spiders with high white sides, I like my pied with medium ish white, I like my albino with minimal white.

If this "standard" says that a spider should only have a small portion of white sling it's lateral line, pied should only be 50% white and albino should be defined well between the yellow and white then does that make my snakes less valuable than yours?

See to me, my snakes are the ones that I have looked at and said wow I adore this part of her pattern or I adore the lack of white on my albino. My snakes are irreplaceable and priceless and, in my eyes, the best examples of what I find beautiful.

It's not someone else's place or right to tell me that what I find beautiful if above or below par compared to anyone else's snakes xx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a few issues with setting standards. First is that just because dogs have standards doesn't mean this hobby should. In my opinion dog hobby comparisons rarely work. In this case it falls apart when you consider that differences in dogs have mostly to do with genetice elasticity and not genetic mutations. This means that most dog genes can be changed by line breeding to attain a certain look. While in ball pythons this is not always the case, for example high white and low white single gene pieds, which is entirely random. Also there is a level of pretentiousness that exists in dog breeding that I would rather never see in this hobby.

This brings us to the point that people have different tastes in animals and standards do nothing but crap on different views of certain morphs. For example I tend to like cg/bananas with more freckles, but I realize that some people like more clean animals. It would a shame to see breedings forced to one style over the other by a standard, if that is even possible. Even though mid and high white pied are more desirable and fetch a higher price, does not mean the individuals preference for low white pied should be viewed as lesser quality.

Also certain traits that are obvious as adults are nearly impossible to predict as babies. Two examples that come to mind are freckling in cg/bananas and browning in pastels. It does not seem pertinent to set standards that can not be predicted from birth as then breeders are forced to keep more hold backs than they would normally. I will concede that these issues may be solved by line breeding, but I am not entirely sure on the matter.

It seems to me, even when asking someone with experience about what a quality animal looks like, for many morphs except the obvious things like a browned out pastel, they have a hard time explaining it. This is of course just my experience and there is a possibility they just don't want to share their information.

I agree that undercutting prices is not good for the hobby, but I feel that has to do with personal integrity and ones commitment to the hobby. We would do better to weed out these types by using the community than to set limiting standards. I recently had to make some space for a banana het pied by rehoming a year old single gene banana. From the beginning I had people telling me my price was too high, but I thought he was a quality animal so I stuck to my price. I was eventually able to sell him, and I honestly think he ended up in a better home because I refused to be pressured into slashing my prices.

This is a fascinating thread. I can see pros and cons on both sides and am really watching closely to see how it plays out. As somebody who just got back into the hobby after years away, a LOT has changed. I last kept snakes in the late 90's and I rehoused them in 2000 or 2001 (it was best for the animals at the time) and just got back into the hobby less than a year ago.
I would quote all that I agree with and touch on it, but it would be a colossal waste of most people's time. I'm just a passionate keeper and have no interest in getting into my own breeding, so I'll leave that up to those who are breeders. I would however love to work FOR a breeder. That would be an awesome job I think.

Would a quality standard not raise the price of all morphs across the board? I mean still sell the not perfect representations of a morph because they are pretty and they are desirable. But if there was a quality standard then new comers to the hobby have a solid point of reference when purchasing animals. They can know what a certain morph is supposed to have and supposed look like. For breeders this raises the price of animals with stronger genes. I Just don't understand why there is a market that profits more off defects that are not what the breeder was even attempting to do just had a fluke and got a weird pattern and now wants to charge extra.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

Would a quality standard not raise the price of all morphs across the board? I mean still sell the not perfect representations of a morph because they are pretty and they are desirable. But if there was a quality standard then new comers to the hobby have a solid point of reference when purchasing animals. They can know what a certain morph is supposed to have and supposed look like. For breeders this raises the price of animals with stronger genes. I Just don't understand why there is a market that profits more off defects that are not what the breeder was even attempting to do just had a fluke and got a weird pattern and now wants to charge extra.

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Maybe it raises the prices that fit that certain standard but lowers the prices on the rest of the market. Standards only apply to personal preferences of the cosmetics of a snake. No one with integrity needs a standard to tell them they should not buy a kinked animal for breeding.

I love the discussion on this and it is influencing my "proposal". I do agree with Eric or Deborah at least at this point but I respect their opinions. They retail, I do not. I make two kinds of animal right now. I make the ones I like, and I make the ones that my buyers says sell well. Ironically my personal quest in quality has nothing to do with paint jobs. I like to produce animals that are easy keepers and have the genes to get large for ball pythons. The paint jobs for me are just a way to attract someone to the animal in the first place. My personal favorite snake in my collection is a big, ugly normal female. She doesn't win people over with her looks, she is all personality. I paid less for her than any other animal in my collection but she holds the highest personal value to me. She is worth more to me than all my gravel stuff put together. All that said she is still at best a $35 normal that I would probably rate as a 2 on a pretty scale.

In the end I think what I am going to put forward will make sense. Even those opposing it may not like it but will have to admit it could work.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

Just don't understand why there is a market that profits more off defects that are not what the breeder was even attempting to do just had a fluke and got a weird pattern and now wants to charge extra.

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What exactly are you talking about when you keep bringing this up? What specific situation(s) can you show as evidence? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, so if you could help shed some light on this for me I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by AntTheDestroyer

No one with integrity needs a standard to tell them they should not buy a kinked animal for breeding.

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Correct, however how about if the animal is not kinked and you don't know that the line has a kinking problem? I don't want to derail my own thread, but in this case an animal that is flawed at the foundation is being covered up by some pretty paint.

I fire people for this type of stuff in my business.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

What exactly are you talking about when you keep bringing this up? What specific situation(s) can you show as evidence? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, so if you could help shed some light on this for me I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

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I'm not going to call anyone out. But I have seen more than a few ball pythons for sale with descriptors like "one of a kind" & "unique pattern" and these animals are always a couple hundred dollars more than the other snakes of the same morph at the same size and age they are selling.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Correct, however how about if the animal is not kinked and you don't know that the line has a kinking problem?

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Is that something you see being covered-up a lot in this hobby? I'd argue that, if anything, that kind of trait gets brought to everyone's attention even faster and gets shunned pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Subscriber

I'm not going to call anyone out. But I have seen more than a few ball pythons for sale with descriptors like "one of a kind" & "unique pattern" and these animals are always a couple hundred dollars more than the other snakes of the same morph at the same size and age they are selling.

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This doesn't clarify anything. It sounds like you have a personal beef with someone and all of this talk has been a long way around complaining about it. Why shouldn't a one-of-a-kind or unique animal be priced more than one that's cookie-cutter? If you don't want to make it public, feel free to PM me and we can discuss there.

As a reality check, think about something for a moment....

We rate animals all the time on this board. Sometimes people are just being nice and sometimes they are being honest. I will pick on myself as an example.

My daughter talked me into buying an animal that she thought was beautiful and she just had to have it. I, in my infinite wisdom thought it may be axanthic. I posted it and you guys basically told me it was just an ugly browned out pastel.

My mojos tend to go over very well here but in honesty I think I have better ones than the ones I have posted.

I PM'd a pick of my, at that time, single lesser girl. I personally think she is a 10 as to what I believe that morph should be. The person rating her didn't seem to think so. In this case the two of us were operating under two different definitions of the same morph. Both of us were right in our own worlds. There shouldn't be two different worlds.

Long story short, we already rate the animals. In my opinion it would be nice to formalize it a bit.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

My daughter talked me into buying an animal that she thought was beautiful and she just had to have it. I, in my infinite wisdom thought it may be axanthic. I posted it and you guys basically told me it was just an ugly browned out pastel.

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Does any of that take away from the beauty your daughter sees/saw in the animal? Why?

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Both of us were right in our own worlds. There shouldn't be two different worlds.

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Why not?

The hobby already rates the animals.

Maybe it's not standardized by a committee, but it's there: the "JKobylka lines" and "Ralph Davis lines" and the "BHB lines"... or in the boa world "Gus Renfro lines" or "Russo lines." Stick around the hobby long enough and you start to learn where the quality is, purely based on the line names. And you see these lines drawing higher dollar amounts than others because people know they're proven and throw quality stock.

Why would you want to formalize it?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Is that something you see being covered-up a lot in this hobby? I'd argue that, if anything, that kind of trait gets brought to everyone's attention even faster and gets shunned pretty quickly.

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Yes, maybe if the seller is nice they will warn you about the risks if you attempt to breed or any quirks the animal may have. In reality I have bought a few spiders in my day, even from people with stellar reputations. The people selling me the animals had no way of knowing how experienced I am and not once was I warned about what I was buying even when the animals were train wrecks. The only animal I have ever seen a warning on anywhere are desert females. I do not deal with any of the known kinkers so I cannot comment specifically on that defect.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

The hobby already rates the animals.

Maybe it's not standardized by a committee, but it's there: the "JKobylka lines" and "Ralph Davis lines" and the "BHB lines"... or in the boa world "Gus Renfro lines" or "Russo lines." Stick around the hobby long enough and you start to learn where the quality is, purely based on the line names. And you see these lines drawing higher dollar amounts than others because people know they're proven and throw quality stock.

Why would you want to formalize it?

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Because my direct from Ralph Davis phantom is the smallest and in my opinion ugliest phantom in my collection. I do not even know who the original breeder was for the phantom line I am working now but he is throwing babies I would rate near 10.