Breeding Standards

[Lizardlicks]

Perhaps we should start a new thread topic? I have ideas, but I think this thread has gotten pretty far from the original question haha.

[Eric Alan]

Eric, if you are really interested, I will attempt to put my jumbled thought processes into something coherent.

Certainly. Throw it up in a separate thread though, as this one feel like it's veering off course from its original intent.

I definitely agree on creating a quality standard though. Nearly every pet trade hobby has an association of breeders and a breed standard. While we don't have breeds, we do have morphs, and you might not be able to ascribe a value judgement to an animal based one whether someone likes it or not - as pointed out, some people like different things, and to return to the dog allegory for a second, I love a well bred, straight-back German Shepard and loathe toy breeds - it may be reasonably doable to create a morph standard based on traits that morph should have. It could possibly revitalized interest in single gene morphs even, if breeder start a focus on selecting one or two single gene morphs to improve the quality of.

I agree that quality should be the standard (whether formal or informal). Comparing dogs to the ball python hobby, though, is like apples and oranges. For comparison's sake, in 1990 there were basically only three ball python morphs total. Dogs have been domesticated for ~15,000 years and have been kept as pets for ~2000 years (from my quick Google-fu). What kind of requirements did the AKC and CKC have at the beginning of the first millennium? I'm not saying that it can't, or shouldn't, be done. I'm simply saying that the dog folks have quite the head-start on us.

[JodanOrNoDan]

If it was up to me, I would put the original focus on single gene animals.These lines would be tracked just like horses. In theory combos could be rated in part on their parents. All could be rated on things like brightness, crisp lines etc. For some combos things like a high brightness rating could be a negative or a positive. It is all doable, but only if people are more interested in creating a solution instead of fighting. If you start out thinking that there is no way to rate art, then a solution will not expose itself. There is of course a way, but some of us may have to admit that our animals are not as perfect as we believe they are. The type of mind that needs to work on this is one that can admit to themselves and others that while in my heart my spouse is a 10 to others he/she is actually a 5.

Oops sorry. I will start a new thread when I have it put together.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutations can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not. Too many variable in patterns and or colors in some mutation.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[JodanOrNoDan]

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutation can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

There are many different ways to look at things. People complain about how to assign values to things that are subjective and that they are getting undercut. The solution I put on the table has been done before in other "industries", and it can be done again. Should it be done is another matter entirely.

However, for anyone to say that they produce quality animals but then are unable to say why they are quality animals does not add up.

I am in no shape way or form dependent on my animals for income. I will have my animals regardless of "the market" or if someone else thinks they are not attractive. The ones that I have decided to sell, sell. I have animals in my collection that even I think are ugly. I am not afraid of getting rated. This thread is about business though and business I know. There is nothing special about ball pythons that makes them different from any other animal that is bought and sold. Every business changes and evolves. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. I have prospered in my primary business for 25 years because I can adapt and I have a good reputation.

I have offered suggestions because it sounded like what people were asking for is price fixing and that is a huge no-no.

I also thought this would be a topic that would be good for open debate, but maybe not yet. When I have my thoughts together I will either contact people through PM or start a new thread if we can be productive that way.

[ladywhipple02]

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

I was thinking about this - it's my general opinion, and I'm fairly certain it would be the opinion of most keepers/breeders that I'm aware of. As Eric said, these are living works of art, and I don't know many artists that like to work within set parameters.

Then I started thinking about generations. You here all this talk about millennials and the differences they're bringing to the business world and such - I'm wondering if we'll see a shift in our hobby with a new generation of snake owners and breeders? People more focused on boundaries and parameters, and less focused on the free market?

BTW, I'm a millennial (by two years apparently) so say what you will There's a lot of things I don't like about my generation, but a lot of things I do, too. I don't even know if this is true, but it's something to ponder.

[Kcl]

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

For those who have experience breeding we know that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that not all mutations can fit in a standard, clown for example or pied, who is to say a reduced clown should be standard while a busy one should not. Too many variable in patterns and or colors in some mutation.

I have hatched animals over the years that did not fit the typical idea of what people have it mind when it come to that morph, so what it's not standard, does it make it less valuable? I think not quite the contrary.

If I sell something for a certain price believing is high quality sooner or later someone will recognize that and pay the price for it, if someone does not and expect me to price it like Joe Schmoe than my answer is simple "buy from Joe Schmoe"

The problem is people are not patient they want to sell their animal soon as they start eating (quality or not). Personally I don't care if it does not sell I have no problem keeping it, and if I really want to move it I wholesale it. Why? Because I would rather wholesale than offer an animal at rock bottom to an individual, just like you will never see me have an auction either.

People need to believe in their animals, and be patient, that is the main issue.

If you can't feed it, keep it or see value in it that you have to dump it, maybe you should not produce it to start with.

I have been doing this since 2006 and I have seen a lot of people come and go and it's always because they have the same complaints, and it all come backs to the points I made earlier, it's a unique market and you must be able to adjust.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I'm neither a breeder nor even particularly invested in morphs in general, so I don't really have skin in the game here, but I'm really curious as to how you define "high quality." Is it based on appearance still?

[embrit345]

I find it a bit wierd to be fair the thought of putting a "standard" into play. There is such a diversity within each morph itself that finding a beginning would be ridiculous for a start but at what point would the line become drawn?

To compare one albino to the next for example - I like high contrast, you prefer low contrast. I prefer high white pied, you prefer low. So which one becomes the standard?

Its a more or less random process and, despite breeders best efforts, some things genetically cannot be dominated outside of a lab.

Its kind of like ( for me anyway ) saying that when 2 newborn babies are placed side by side, does the one with the more round face become more "standard" than the one with the more traingular face? Blonde hair over brown etc I know that is a VERY extreme view of the situation but its how I feel.

The true diversity within the genetics and visual aspects of royals is what I love about this hobby. To make one snake more appealing than the other by placing a standard on them just doesn't work for me although I understand the hypothesis behind the reasoning xx

[bcr229]

The day there are standards for mutations is the day I will quit breeding.

How do you evaluate "quality" without a standard though?

Some are easy, like pastels that don't brown out over time - and there are a few of those and they should command a premium price.

Similarly if a line of black pastel or cinnamon could be identified that did not have the duck-billing or kinking issues, or a line of spider that didn't wobble, then that's another potential standard.

Moving in this direction creates added value for owners, no different from other industries. As an example a successful racehorse or show horse will have a higher value as a performer and breeder than the backyard hack used for the occasional trail ride. Both critters have minimum care requirements, one is just more expensive.

[JodanOrNoDan]

I'm neither a breeder nor even particularly invested in morphs in general, so I don't really have skin in the game here, but I'm really curious as to how you define "high quality." Is it based on appearance still?

If someone attempts to define high quality it would upset the people that didn't meet the parameters and make those happy that did meet them. This is unavoidable. I will get into the how's later but I actually have to do some real work right now.

And no. I don't think quality only applies to appearance. There would be categories of quality. For example, an animal that does not have feeding issues is worth way more to me than one that does. It doesn't do me any good personally to have a potential breeder that takes me four years to get to size. Also one of the few complaints about balls is the way they feed. I would rather sell animals that feed well than ones that don't especially to someone new in the hobby. Also animals with attitude problems would be worth less in my book.