Define Paradox

I'm curious since I had a little FB discussion last night. What do you consider a Paradox? Personally I've only herd/seen it used to describe chimera type animals, the ones that show multiple genes in the same snake, like the half albino half normals and the plethora of other examples. Apperently other use it to also describe animals like ringers, oddities from incubator malfunction, and pretty much anything considered odd.

Now Paradox it the sense we use it is a completely made up term, like super so there isn't really a right or wrong answer, but I was curious how you use it.

Paradox and Dinker don't seem to hold the weight that they use to.
Both terms seem to get thrown around a lot more than they should, they are now the equivalent of a participation ribbon. LoL

Ok I define a paradox as a snake that let's say is an albino but has parts of normal color and pattern on some parts have you heard of the atomic morph? It's one I've been wanting since I heard of it as its like a genetic paradox sorta because say you have a banana cinnamon atomic you would get an animal that's part banana and part cinnamon colors and patterns they look insane and a trade mark appearantly is half the head color/pattern will be 1 morph and the other half will be the other morph

retro gaming pokemon for gbc/gba p.s. I've never played go nor shall i !!!!!

This is only the base morph atomic and the atomic queenbee both look amazing to me and theirs dozens more morphs I believe but either way I'm going to get an atomic one day<3 and cross it into everything I have lol let me know what you all think of this this morph atomic as its the closest to a paradox we have to genetic

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/atomic/


http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...mic-queen-bee/

retro gaming pokemon for gbc/gba p.s. I've never played go nor shall i !!!!!

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Paradox and Dinker don't seem to hold the weight that they use to.
Both terms seem to get thrown around a lot more than they should, they are now the equivalent of a participation ribbon. LoL

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Lol, I've never heard Paradox used that way, but I know what you mean about dinker. At least my induction to the word was it was an opinion whether you thought the animal had potential for something. But then when you see animals advertised as a dinker, it like hey... I'll be the judge of my own opinion. Just like when people advertise things as A+ or high quality, again... I'll be the judge of that if I'm buying it.

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Originally Posted by Ballpythonguy92

Ok I define a paradox as a snake that let's say is an albino but has parts of normal color and pattern on some parts have you heard of the atomic morph? It's one I've been wanting since I heard of it as its like a genetic paradox sorta because say you have a banana cinnamon atomic you would get an animal that's part banana and part cinnamon colors and patterns they look insane and a trade mark appearantly is half the head color/pattern will be 1 morph and the other half will be the other morph

retro gaming pokemon for gbc/gba p.s. I've never played go nor shall i !!!!!

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Yes I have seen the atomic stuff and I think it's super exciting for the hobby. I'm actually surprised it's not hyped up more. Some combos do look chimera like, other just really cool. But yea it's the closest thing to genetic Paradox I've seen

Yea i can't wait till it's more out their and more people are working with the atomic as I can only imagine what Kevin from nerd what do lol him and his 7+ gene snakes expressing all genes omg I can't even fathem what he would do with the atomic lol

retro gaming pokemon for gbc/gba p.s. I've never played go nor shall i !!!!!

I define those terms as follows:

Paradox: is an abnormal unexpected coloration of the snake based on known genetics. It is usually just a blotch or two or some unexpected colors showing up on usually small portions of the snake. It is not genetic and can't be passed along to the offspring, it's just a random oddity. Here's an example, this should be just a Coral Glow but the black spots can't be explained with normal genetics so we call them a 'Paradox', not genetic so we can't give them a name and can't be passed to offspring. If it were genetic we would give a name to this new morph.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...91afaa25f4.jpg

Dinker: is a normal ball python that we think may have potential to have a new color or pattern that is genetic. It may or may not be the next new morph. Most dinkers are just normals with interesting patterns or colors that can not be passed along to the offspring, but we hope they can (everyone hopes their normal is a dinker LOL).

Chimera: is a genetic anomaly, i.e. more than the usual number of genes in one genetic locality. We know we need two genes at one location for a recessive or a super, a Chimera has three or more at that location and it's a one time oddity that can't be reproduced.

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Originally Posted by cchardwick

Chimera: is a genetic anomaly, i.e. more than the usual number of genes in one genetic locality. We know we need two genes at one location for a recessive or a super, a Chimera has three or more at that location and it's a one time oddity that can't be reproduced.

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While Paradox and Dinker have completly subjective definition in the hobby, chimera is pretty established in biology already and that's not how it works. Chimeras have 2 (or more in theory) sets of DNA. Essentially siblings in one snake.

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Originally Posted by Ballpythonguy92

This is only the base morph atomic and the atomic queenbee both look amazing to me and theirs dozens more morphs I believe but either way I'm going to get an atomic one day<3 and cross it into everything I have lol let me know what you all think of this this morph atomic as its the closest to a paradox we have to genetic

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/atomic/


http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...mic-queen-bee/

retro gaming pokemon for gbc/gba p.s. I've never played go nor shall i !!!!!

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Any photos of the single gene visible atomic? WOB only has combos. I have never even seen atomic for sale. How long has this gene been around?

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As you note in your original post, "paradox" is just another term in the hobby that holds zero legitimate value other than as a descriptor.

I have always used it to describe an animal displaying areas of pigmentation/pattern that are contrary to the accepted base morph of the animal. So, in terms of pigmentation, an Albino animal with a patch of normal melanin pigmented skin would be "paradox" and, flipping it around, a normal coloured animal with an Albino-like amelanistic patch would also be "paradox". A pattern-type "paradox" would be a Spider with a patch of WT patterning on it or, flip side, a WT with a patch of Spider pattern

As far as using "paradox" to describe a ringer... Nope. Without going too deep in the weeds, how ringers occur is not a total enigma -- it is most probably a single mechanism at play

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Originally Posted by asplundii

As you note in your original post, "paradox" is just another term in the hobby that holds zero legitimate value other than as a descriptor.

I have always used it to describe an animal displaying areas of pigmentation/pattern that are contrary to the accepted base morph of the animal. So, in terms of pigmentation, an Albino animal with a patch of normal melanin pigmented skin would be "paradox" and, flipping it around, a normal coloured animal with an Albino-like amelanistic patch would also be "paradox". A pattern-type "paradox" would be a Spider with a patch of WT patterning on it or, flip side, a WT with a patch of Spider pattern

As far as using "paradox" to describe a ringer... Nope. Without going too deep in the weeds, how ringers occur is not a total enigma -- it is most probably a single mechanism at play

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Well your description would most likely be the result of chimerism right? Apperently others use it to describe beyond that as any oddity. Then I found there are some who say chimeras and Paradox are different where chimera is as stated and Paradox describes other oddities.

I was just wondering if there was a more common definition used, maybe I missed something over the last 10 years in this hobby lol. I'm starting to think it's a word I should just stop using all together given the multiple things it can mean to different people.

Kinda related, is there scenerios that can lead to a chimera looking animal, but not be a chimera? I've seen many people say there can be other reasons for the chimera look, but I've never seen an explanation besides "anomaly", which is a cute way of saying "I donno" in my eyes

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Well your description would most likely be the result of chimerism right?

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Or the result of a mosaic or a handful of other less common genetic foibles...

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Then I found there are some who say chimeras and Paradox are different where chimera is as stated and Paradox describes other oddities.

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Perhaps this is an after-effect of some people beginning to savvy up to the fact that the term "paradox" is, to all intents and purposes, illegitimate and so they are moving to more legitimate terminology

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Kinda related, is there scenerios that can lead to a chimera looking animal, but not be a chimera? I've seen many people say there can be other reasons for the chimera look, but I've never seen an explanation besides "anomaly", which is a cute way of saying "I donno" in my eyes

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Yeah, there are other ways the "paradox" look can occur, as I noted above. Mosaicism is the more likely candidate of "paradoxing" that we are likely to see in the hobby (above even chimerism) and there are a number of ways that mosaics can come to be. And then there are a handful of other less likely, but not impossible, mechanisms that follow those two.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Apperently others use it to describe beyond that as any oddity.

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Huh? Well for me, I certainly do not merit using the term as applying to any oddity. Doing that kind of defeats the purpose of using the word because it is not then in keeping with actual definition of the word. I mean... While "paradox" may be illegitimate terminology, at least using it to describe animals such as those I outlined makes a degree of sense.

What I've seen, atleast with horse genetics, a Chimera is when two offspring with different phenotypes fused to create one offspring showing BOTH phenotypes, like a Bannana that has large patches of lesser coloring.

A "paradox" (I can't remember the horse version's name(Somatic mutation is the name I think???) is where in a section of skin/hair, a gene turns off, so a patch of NORMAL coloring is shown. So if you have a Champagne with a large patch of normal coloring.

So this is a chimeric horse (trying to find a non bay example was impossible) He's nearly even in where's brown and where's black, most likely a fusion of twins. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach..._fra_Grund.jpg

A Somatic or Paradox horse is this. He has a small section where a gene has turned on, his front leg area is grey while the rest of him is bay. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...839e787345.jpg

Does that help at all? I started with genetics in horses, so that's where I get most of my info from.

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Originally Posted by Cydonia

A "paradox" (I can't remember the horse version's name(Somatic mutation is the name I think???)

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The term you are looking for is mosaic :gj: