Hybrid talk

So I was doing reading and seeing how atleast 80% of people maybe a little more say it's wrong and you shouldn't play god and what not but what are we doing when we cross a pastel to a spider to get a bumblebee we are playing god by forcing something that wouldn't occur in nature lol because we all know that theirs now way a spider and pastel would meet but I do get how people would see that it is but to me it's no different and want to hear your opinions and I know I probably could have used a better example just thought it would be easy that way

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There is a BIG difference between mixing a species and mixing a color... that is my opinion. A pastel ball python is still a ball python. A lesser ball python is still a ball python... a plesser is still a ball python. A ball python is NOT a blood python and is far different then mixing colors.

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

we all know that theirs now way a spider and pastel would meet

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Do we know that? Both are naturally occurring morphs. And while the chances may not be good, it could happen.

Hybrids on the other hand are a different story...
Hybrids are an abomination.

I wouldn't presume to infringe on someone else's rights to breed abominations, but I personally don't want anything to do with BP hybrids.

In my opinion, if you attempting to make an animal that has a "use", in the case of snakes a "better" pet, hybridization can be a good or a bad thing. They have been making mules for a very long time. At one time the mule was a very useful animal. The problem begins when people loose track of the genetics and don't know what they are selling. That said, if the hybrid can breed, is it really a hybrid? In my opinion it is not but I am not a geneticist. I personally have no desire to try to hybridize ball pythons, they are fine the way they are, but something like a burm hybrid that made them smaller would interest me. I really like them but they are just too big for what I would keep as a pet.

Some of them do interest me. I currently have a Superball in my rack that a friend asked me to keep.
She is probably one of the easiest to handle and most outgoing snake I have ever had.
Neither of us know her history though.

The question is what happens in nature?
Nothing "we" are doing is totally natural and given the chance we don't know what breedings would/do happen.

I say, if it you want to try then go for it IF it interests you. Just be honest when/if you produce offspring and want to sell them.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Some of them do interest me. I currently have a Superball in my rack that a friend asked me to keep.
She is probably one of the easiest to handle and most outgoing snake I have ever had.
Neither of us know her history though.

The question is what happens in nature?
Nothing "we" are doing is totally natural and given the chance we don't know what breedings would/do happen.

I say, if it you want to try then go for it IF it interests you. Just be honest when/if you produce offspring and want to sell them.

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Totally agree. In the moment that we selectively pair snakes together in an artificial enclosure we are already departing from 'natural' and creating our own selective evolutionary pressures.

The key to creating hybrids is transparency so that people understand the genetics of what they are receiving.

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Originally Posted by Slim

Hybrids on the other hand are a different story...
Hybrids are an abomination.

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I'm not a huge fan of hybrids (not usually a fan of locality crosses in other snake species either) however some are naturally occurring.
Amazon Tree Boa x Emerald Tree Boa have been found and collected in the wild
Bullsnake x Foxsnake, I believe some rat snake subspecies have been found as well
I think most of these are all the same genus however and obviously naturally occur in the same area.

As long as the animals are honestly represented, to each their own IMO

Man, if you think that a hybrid in the animal breeding world is an abomination, then you better never own a domesticated dog. Every single dog breed is the result of careful planning and pairing of hybridized traits over thousands of generations of selective breeding.

Yes, all dogs are the same species, but 99% of dog breeds wouldn't exist without human interference.

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

what are we doing when we cross a pastel to a spider to get a bumblebee we are playing god by forcing something that wouldn't occur in nature lol because we all know that theirs now way a spider and pastel would meet

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I know others already have but just to touch on this specific point some more, it's very possible that could happen in the wild, same with pieds or albinos or anything. However, the chance that the 'morph' would survive to adulthood is probably low as it would be brighter and easier for a predator to find.

I personally won't do hybrids, either buying or breeding, but I have no issue with what others choose to do. Just not my thing. And I don't place breeding for certain color traits in a species in the same subject as breeding two different species to produce something new.

The problem for me is not the hybrid as much as it is the ethic of breeding hybrids.

Imagine 3, 5, 10 generations from now when someone buys a BP, Carpet etc or so they thought but the animal is just the result of several generation of hybridization and is not pure, that to me is where the issue lies and we have already seen that issue in Colubrids.

Now if you breed BP no matter what the paint job at the end of the day it is still a BP.

So the ethic and honesty of the breeder is really the bigger issue here when it comes to hybrids.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Man, if you think that a hybrid in the animal breeding world is an abomination, then you better never own a domesticated dog

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1) Don't tell me what I better never do.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Yes, all dogs are the same species

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2) This ^^^^ Selective breeding is one thing. We do that now with all domesticated species. What I don't approve of is trying to create BabyPuppyMonkey...

Food for thought. Hybrids do occur in nature and they can be quite successful. If you are Caucasian you are carrying neanderthal genes. If you are Asian you are carrying Denesovan genes. If you happen to be one of my children you are carrying Neanderthal and Denesovan genes. Most of the surviving genus Homo are hybrids. For me to state that I am against hybridization would be hypocritical.

That said, to sell a hybrid as anything other than a hybrid would be unethical however to make them is not.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

So the ethic and honesty of the breeder is really the bigger issue here when it comes to hybrids.

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Sadly this doesn't exist in the reptile world as much as it should. :rage::rage::rage:

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Originally Posted by Slim

1) Don't tell me what I better never do.




2) This ^^^^ Selective breeding is one thing. We do that now with all domesticated species. What I don't approve of is trying to create BabyPuppyMonkey...

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No offense intended, just a figure of speech.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Food for thought. Hybrids do occur in nature and they can be quite successful. If you are Caucasian you are carrying neanderthal genes. If you are Asian you are carrying Denesovan genes. If you happen to be one of my children you are carrying Neanderthal and Denesovan genes. Most of the surviving genus Homo are hybrids. For me to state that I am against hybridization would be hypocritical.

That said, to sell a hybrid as anything other than a hybrid would be unethical however to make them is not.

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Right you are! Most multicellular organisms are a hodgepodge of genetics and recombination over millions of years of evolution.

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Originally Posted by Slim

What I don't approve of is trying to create BabyPuppyMonkey...

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Now I kind of want one................ :rofl::rofl::rofl:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psuy8avjyd.jpg

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The problem for me is not the hybrid as much as it is the ethic of breeding hybrids.

Imagine 3, 5, 10 generations from now when someone buys a BP, Carpet etc or so they thought but the animal is just the result of several generation of hybridization and is not pure, that to me is where the issue lies and we have already seen that issue in Colubrids.

Now if you breed BP no matter what the paint job at the end of the day it is still a BP.

So the ethic and honesty of the breeder is really the bigger issue here when it comes to hybrids.

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^^^^^^ exactly this.

I've been stung before by picking up a pair of 'interesting looking eastern pine snakes' which actually turned out to be a pine snake/bull snake hybrid. These two species are very close and some even consider them subspecies but when I bred this pair together the babies were all over the place color wise, body shape wise, head shape wise or size wise. And there was no consistency between any of the siblings. This can be very frustrating to a breeder. There is no way you can get something like this to 'breed true'

Many hybrids are infertile, so the effects they could have on propogating lines is nil.

From another perspective, increasing genetic diversity in a population is usually always a positive influence. We know that hybrid vigor allows an inbred population the ability to withstand disease better. Might help with all respiratory infection/non-feeding BP posts. :gj:

Nearly all colubrid hybrids I know of are fertile.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Nearly all colubrid hybrids I know of are fertile.

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I was referring to something like a burm/ball mix.

The only issue I see with hybrids is what everyone else has pointed out, transparency with the breeder so the customer knows what they are actually getting. To me a hybrid snake is no different than any other crossed animal that is generally accepted (wolf hybrid). To say that every hybrid is an abomination is a little excessive. Especially from a reptile standpoint where animals are selectively bred and crossed to make pretty colors. Now before everyone goes off on that statement, I know that breeding for colors is not the same as mixing species, but how is a perfectly healthy hybrid an abomination that shouldn't be bred, when the spider gene is known to have neurological issues and continues to be produced on massive scales? Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Food for thought. Hybrids do occur in nature and they can be quite successful. If you are Caucasian you are carrying neanderthal genes. If you are Asian you are carrying Denesovan genes. If you happen to be one of my children you are carrying Neanderthal and Denesovan genes. Most of the surviving genus Homo are hybrids. For me to state that I am against hybridization would be hypocritical.

That said, to sell a hybrid as anything other than a hybrid would be unethical however to make them is not.

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Humans are the same species, no matter the race. So to say that a black guy getting together with a Asian is a hybrid is actually wrong. It is no different then true red tail boas... they are just from different localities and because of that they look different. But when you go to breeder, ask for a red tail boa, those with an untrained eye may have no clue if they are buying a BCI, BCC or a mixture of both.

I remember they very first time I was going to buy a pet snake. I was looking at jungle corns. I did not realize that a jungle corn is a mixture between a corn snake and a king snake. The issue when it come to this hybridization is that you will not know if they have they attitude of the docile corn snake or the hungry, eager, snappy king snake. They may look pretty and "natural" but hybrids tend to have a crazy attitude that makes them very unpredictable.

If people want to mix species then all the power to them, but it is definitely not something I would do or buy.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Nearly all colubrid hybrids I know of are fertile.

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And BP Hybrids are known to be fertile as well.

We now have the

Superball F2 generation which is Superball x Superball pairing

The Mongrel

Angry Ball

The Albino Burmball from Burmball Het Albino X Burmball Het Albino

And before too long we will have the same issue than we have had with Colubrids.

A spider ball python could not exist in the wild. They would soon die off because of their inability to feed, they simply couldn't consistently enough hit a rat on their first strike to survive.
But we are in controlled environments, with a keeper holding a thawed rat steady a spider can survive in captivity fine, we don't know if they live an ideal life or if they're constantly tormented by it but yet we continue to breed them. WE make them

As long as you are selling animals for what they are and informing buyers of everything I don't see a problem with hybrids, why not experiment and try new things? Why can't we play 'God'

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Originally Posted by BCS

Humans are the same species, no matter the race. So to say that a black guy getting together with a Asian is a hybrid is actually wrong. It is no different then true red tail boas... they are just from different localities and because of that they look different. But when you go to breeder, ask for a red tail boa, those with an untrained eye may have no clue if they are buying a BCI, BCC or a mixture of both.

I remember they very first time I was going to buy a pet snake. I was looking at jungle corns. I did not realize that a jungle corn is a mixture between a corn snake and a king snake. The issue when it come to this hybridization is that you will not know if they have they attitude of the docile corn snake or the hungry, eager, snappy king snake. They may look pretty and "natural" but hybrids tend to have a crazy attitude that makes them very unpredictable.

If people want to mix species then all the power to them, but it is definitely not something I would do or buy.

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You aren't understanding what Jodan is saying. Neanderthals are a different species. They are not homo sapiens. Yet we as humans retain a certain amount of DNA from the hybridizing of Neanderthal and cro-magnon man.

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Originally Posted by CantHelpIt

A spider ball python could not exist in the wild. They would soon die off because of their inability to feed, they simply couldn't consistently enough hit a rat on their first strike to survive.

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Where do you think the first Spider came from? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by CantHelpIt

A spider ball python could not exist in the wild. They would soon die off because of their inability to feed, they simply couldn't consistently enough hit a rat on their first strike to survive.

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The first spider ball WAS a a wild caught import as are ALL other morphs that we see today, if I remember correctly I believe it was also imported as an adult so it had obviously been doing fine in the wild.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

No offense intended, just a figure of speech.

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No Worries

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Originally Posted by BCS

If people want to mix species then all the power to them, but it is definitely not something I would do or buy.

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Amen

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Originally Posted by CantHelpIt

A spider ball python could not exist in the wild.

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Bovine Feces!

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Originally Posted by CantHelpIt

WE make them

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NATURE made the first ones, wonky brains and all. And, do you think some snake wrangler in Togo found the first and ONLY Spider to ever come out of an egg? Hardly the case.

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Originally Posted by JodanOrNoDan

Hybrids do occur in nature and they can be quite successful.

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I totally agree! If an Angolan Python and a Ball Python want to hook up in the wild and get their freak on, I have ZERO issue with what ever comes out of those eggs. But, I have ZERO time for unnatural hybridization like Burm Balls, Green Tree Balls, Af Rock Balls, Carpet Balls, Children's Balls, Retic Balls, Peanut Butter Balls, Spit Balls, Deez Balls, Salty Balls or any other kind of Balls that you would never find in an manipulated environment.

Lol this is better then I thought but yes it is a big difference I was just using ball pythons as examples because we are taking morphs and mashing them together when in reality in it would be a very very slim chance 2 morphs would meet but like they're are places were certain python species do over lap but have not been any recorded hybrids but also I'm not planning on breeding hybrids just sorta wanting to know more about them as I may have a clutch coming that was accidental and in my opinion I love them some look super cool as for continuing breeding to others I'd never do that Strickly pet/show only but I'm different a snakes a snake I love all oh yea I was also doing reading why does no one care about the diamond X coastal carpet python hybrids I love pure diamonds but hate hybrids

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

Lol this is better then I thought

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Anytime you think it's too quiet around here, just crank up the Hybrid discussion...

Or mention that Big Gunns was the best member of this Forum EVER! (OG inside joke)

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Originally Posted by Slim

Or mention that Big Gunns was the best member of this Forum EVER! (OG inside joke)

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PitOnTheProwl doesn't think so. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I think it all comes down to personal preference. I personally do not see any interest in a hybrid. In fact I don't really have interest in owning a mix of localities either. But that is just me everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Look at the super dwarf reticulated python. I would love to get my hands on a 100% pure super dwarf but I can't because they've all been mixed with mainland in order to pick up the morph genetics. I know there are some pure super dwarfs out there, but they're kind of like a needle in a haystack right now. The way I look at it is, just because you can doesn't mean you doesn't mean you should. Look at the Pontiac aztek.

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Originally Posted by Yodawagon

I think it all comes down to personal preference. I personally do not see any interest in a hybrid. In fact I don't really have interest in owning a mix of localities either. But that is just me everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Look at the super dwarf reticulated python. I would love to get my hands on a 100% pure super dwarf but I can't because they've all been mixed with mainland in order to pick up the morph genetics. I know there are some pure super dwarfs out there, but they're kind of like a needle in a haystack right now. The way I look at it is, just because you can doesn't mean you doesn't mean you should. Look at the Pontiac aztek.

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I agree with this, while I don't see an issue with hybrids (I am intrigued by how they look) I personally wouldn't own any, I honestly have zero interest in morphs as well, they are pretty to look at, but that's about it. As I said earlier what I don't agree with is it being condemned...

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

what I don't agree with is it being condemned...

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What I've learned over the years is that I can condemn it AND defend someone's right to do it in the same breath.

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Originally Posted by Slim

What I've learned over the years is that I can condemn it AND defend someone's right to do it in the same breath.

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I understand that and I am not trying to argue semantics, but to speak in 100% absolutes like that based solely on opinion vs. facts comes across as closed minded, if I were to say, "all morphs are an abomination and no one should manipulate genetics to get pretty colors because that's how I feel" the hate posts would come rushing in. I just don't get why hybridization is so taboo. So in your opinion would you feel that every wolf hybrid and mule out there are an abomination?

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

but to speak in 100% absolutes like that based solely on opinion vs. facts comes across as closed minded

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The fact that my "abomination" comment is my opinion was implied, given the context.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

So in your opinion would you feel that every wolf hybrid and mule out there are an abomination?

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Actually, Yes. But again, that would be my opinion.

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

... why does no one care about the diamond X coastal carpet python hybrids I love pure diamonds but hate hybrids

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carpet x diamond is not a hybrid, they are the same species, morelia spilota. this is an example of an intergrade. these two subspecies also happen to intergrade in the wild where their ranges overlap. they're quite nice snakes.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

carpet x diamond is not a hybrid, they are the same species, morelia spilota. this is an example of an intergrade. these two subspecies also happen to intergrade in the wild where their ranges overlap. they're quite nice snakes.

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not to say intergrades don't come with many of the same issues. the carpet python world is full of "who really knows what it is" snakes. many of the colubrid "hybrids" are also really intergrades of sub species of the same species. as others have noted, it can difficult to recognize this integration, especially when the original 50/50 offspring are then mated to just a single of the subspecies for a few generations. eventually you'll get to 1/16 and 1/32 ssp which can easily be mistaken/passed off for pure.

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Originally Posted by DennisM

... these two subspecies also happen to intergrade in the wild where their ranges overlap.

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and maybe more to the point, there are well established populations of what the pet trade calls DCI (Diamond Coastal Intergade). these are not the result of a diamond mating with a coastal. they are a distinct population that is made up of DCIs. maybe they're not DCIs at all. some would say morelia spilota is morelia spilota and these three (diamond, coastal and DCI) are just regional variations of the same thing that have adapted to differing ecosystems over millennia. for all we know the snakes we consider to be the intergrades may well be the founding race.

Now, back to the spirit of the OPs original post. I’m not a fan of inter species breeding, but don’t feel it’s my place to judge those who are. As for “playing God”: well for those who believe, was it not God who made these animals capable of creating these hybrid offspring?

I like alot of these opinions and some not soo much lol but that's why I started this I wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it but I'd never breed a hybrid to anything if I ever got one they would just have a nice big cage for display because I do really like some hybrids as for finding homes were they won't be bred is the harder part because people do lie at times

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I also do want to create 1 hybrid and that's the Baltic because I do have a male super dwarf reticulated python he is 18 years old and maxed at 7 feet and would love to have one of his babies as idk how long he has left :( as for the rest of them I have 8 friends that would take 1 for free as pet only and I'd freeze the rest of the eggs

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I would like to know what big gunns did lol as long as it doesn't piss anyone off

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Originally Posted by dylanjwicklund

I would like to know what big gunns did lol as long as it doesn't piss anyone off

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Irrelevant, and very off topic, as for discussing banned members and the reason why they were banned we do not do that. So discussion over!.

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Lol ok then just was wondering because his name was brought up in the first place and I didn't ask why he was banned simply what he did so i dont go and do what ever stupid stuff he did but what ever don't care just hope I don't do something he did or someone else that got banned but going all green like that at all so don't do it again made me feel like I'm being yelledat for asking a simply question that could have been answered differently as for this I'm done I got the opinions I needed

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One question I'd have about experimental hybrids is, how would you know what the animal's body type and behavior "should" be? Not to mention potential health issues that might not crop up until the animal is well into adulthood? Mules have been around for a long time, so we know what their personality and needs are. If you cross a carpet with a ball, do you get an animal that likes to climb, or one that likes to hang out in dark holes? Behavior that would be normal for one species could be a sign or stress or illness for the other, so in the case of a hybrid, how would you know?
Supposedly ligers are prone to psychological issues because lions are stressed by being alone and tigers are stressed by having company. Ligers are sometimes stressed by both, which makes it hard to make them happy. Ligers also grow larger than either lions or tigers because the various genes that limit growth come from different parents in the two species, so the hybrid keeps growing and then ends up with a higher rate of health problems because the rest of its physiology isn't adapted to be that big.

So in the case of a mule, both parents are domestic animals that live in similar settings and eat similar food and like to be in herds; the hybrid is an animal that (in addition to being a very good draft animal) is generally able to lead a healthy, happy life. In the case of a liger, the hybrid is an animal that is highly likely to be miserable, despite the best efforts at caring for it.

So hybridizing animals for the novelty of it seems ethically dubious to me if the result might well be that it's hard to tell what the hybrid's needs might be, and it might have unpredictable growth and health issues that you can't really solve once it's born.

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Originally Posted by Coluber42

So hybridizing animals for the novelty of it seems ethically dubious to me if the result might well be that it's hard to tell what the hybrid's needs might be, and it might have unpredictable growth and health issues that you can't really solve once it's born.

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Hear Hear! Well said!

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Originally Posted by Slim

Hear Hear! Well said!

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You could just as easily substitute "morph" for "hybrid" but that would really make people's brains explode. Throwing together unknown for novelty turns out badly in quite a few cases.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

You could just as easily substitute "morph" for "hybrid"

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Please explain your statement. Feel free to explode my brain.