Grumpy, dry skin, and won't eat

My diamond python Dexter is seriously struggling right now. He had a bad shed a while back which I've been working on for a few months now, soaking him and rubbing his skin gently with a wet towel. I have removed all the shed except for a few individual scales, but his skin looks so dry! His scales look almost dented or smudged, they have little to no shine, and his belly scales often appear to be lifted. I spray his cage every other night, he has a bunch of damp moss, and a big water dish to soak in( and he does soak in it a lot!) I don't know what else I can do for his skin. He's very grumpy about it and he has missed 3 meals now. I can get pictures of his skin later today.


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More information is needed here.

Age of the snake?

Is it a pure diamond? If so what are your enclosure temps, cage size, amount of lighting? Is there a night drop and what is your heat source?

Soaking is usually a bad sign and can lead to other issues, and often points back to cage husbandry, specifically temps and overall humidity levels.

I assume having a diamond, you are aware of the different level of care they require compared to the other types of carpets?

See if you have the bases covered here:
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Snak...Python-Basics/

Scroll to the diamond section here:
http://www.southernxreptiles.com/Art...testing_lr.pdf

The second link mentions feeding and shedding issues that can occur without precise husbandry.

I hope after reading some of that, something pops and you can try to adjust.

If you've gone through all that and nobody here can help, it is time for a reptile vet.

Snakes take a long time to exhibit signs of illness, so when certain issues pop up they often stem from something that has been going on for an extended period.

I now see this is a continuing issue since you began the care of this animal for your sister.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-my-bathroom!

Read up on diamond pythons in the links I posted.

I think in a very short time you will need to visit a reptile vet as it seems the health of this animal has taken a dive since you started helping out.

Find out how the snake was doing prior to you taking it in as the issues could have started while not in your care.

If the snake was perfectly fine, you need to do EXACTLY what was being done before you took it in, however in order to know things were good, you must find out if your sister changed anything with the care of the snake recently as well.

Diamonds are considered "cold weather pythons" though cold is a relative term here.

THE COMPLETE CARPET PYTHON By Nick Mutton and Justin Julander has a separate chapter for the care of diamond pythons.

You may want to buy the book and study that section.

Unfortunately I don't own a pure diamond so I'm not able to pass on anything more than I have.

Good luck.

He is approximately 5 years old.

He is a pure diamond, a beautiful one at that. His basking spot is 85. His cage is 4'x4'x2'. (Lxhxw). Heat and light source is a 60w bulb. At night the lamp is turned off giving a temperature of 70.

I am honestly really confused as to why he's struggling so much, I've been checking my husbandry frequently and reviewed the care sheets you mentioned . The only problem I can think of is the humidity being a little low, though I've been keeping on top of it since he came to me.

Prior to Dexter being in my care is when he had the bad shed, and the problems just continued.

I've been reading online and I think the problem is dehydration. Maybe he's not drinking? I've heard that soaking snakes in Powerade can really help in hydrating the animal. I've also been pondering the idea of soaking him weekly to make sure he gets some water intake.

He's still sloughing his scales and is downright miserable. Yesterday he actually struck and bit(not me) the handle on the poop scoop. He's quite a bluffer, but has never actually bitten until now. I feel so bad for him. I got some pictures of his skin and the enclosure.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...255bc9cbd4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e69f64e793.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0b19335c85.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...bca22a0c56.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8e55bb144c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a4322f16bd.jpg


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You can see how his scales look smudged and dented.


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What kind of cage is that. The long screen on the front needs to be closed off to help hold the humidity(put electrical tape on the outside, it looks clean and its easy to take off if needed).

I think much of your problem is going to be that cage. Getting a proper cage, good substrate, and a rhp would be the best thing to do if you can. Or on the cheap getting a tall tub and some luggage straps to secure the lid could at least get the snake back to good on shedding.

Im not trying to be mean here but I want to point out that the snake is not struggling, you are. The snake is stuck with only what you provide it. You can get this fixed.

I will definitely close off the front screen.

With the ventilation blocked off( notice the towels on top ), a humid hide, a big water dish, and frequent misting, I don't think a plastic cage would really be any different. I've used plastic caging before, and I found that it harbored a lot of bacteria in comparison to a glass cage. I know many snake keepers are very against glass cages, but I use them for all my reptiles and prefer them over plastic. My substrate is a mix of cypress mulch and repti bark, so I think I'm okay there.

Trust me, the snake is struggling; not to say I'm not.


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You should add something to the top that is less breathable than the towels. Plexi, glass, foil wrapped cardboard, etc. That would help keep heat and humidity in. Leave a small area for air but I would close off most of it.

I use a mixture of cypress, repti bark, and eco earth. Cypress is good but Eco is great at holding humidity. The only thing I don't like is it gets kinda dusty once dry. I found using it mixed with the other two it takes away the dustiness of it but still gives you the humidity bonus. I use this in my GTP cage and it looks and works great, especially in a naturalistic tank like you and I both seem to like.

Another thing you may want to check out is the ReptiFogger. I used one with my BRB when he was in a similar style cage as yours. I paired it with a HygroTherm and the two worked very well creating the humidity I needed. It also looked really cool when the fog would coming rolling into the cage. If you go this route a tip is a regular 2 liter bottle will fit on the fogger unit so you don't have to refill the small bottle it comes with all the time. Also use filter water to help keep the unit from building up deposits from the water. Having this installed will monitor and aid humidity all day so you do not have to constantly mist or worry about boosting the humidity. Both products worked really well for my and my BRB.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Reptil...ds=reptifogger

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-HygroT...5EXTPWA6KR68AY

I have glass tanks, pvc cages, and a rack. I don't find any of them any different when it comes to keeping them clean. In case you change your mind I bought my GTP cage from pvc cages and it is a great cage. You can add and they install perches, lights, rhps, and other options. Its top notch. You can even have them shipped assembled, which is what I did. Its my favorite cage.

http://pvccages.com/

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Originally Posted by KMG

You should add something to the top that is less breathable than the towels. Plexi, glass, foil wrapped cardboard, etc. That would help keep heat and humidity in. Leave a small area for air but I would close off most of it.

I use a mixture of cypress, repti bark, and eco earth. Cypress is good but Eco is great at holding humidity. The only thing I don't like is it gets kinda dusty once dry. I found using it mixed with the other two it takes away the dustiness of it but still gives you the humidity bonus. I use this in my GTP cage and it looks and works great, especially in a naturalistic tank like you and I both seem to like.

Another thing you may want to check out is the ReptiFogger. I used one with my BRB when he was in a similar style cage as yours. I paired it with a HygroTherm and the two worked very well creating the humidity I needed. It also looked really cool when the fog would coming rolling into the cage. If you go this route a tip is a regular 2 liter bottle will fit on the fogger unit so you don't have to refill the small bottle it comes with all the time. Also use filter water to help keep the unit from building up deposits from the water. Having this installed will monitor and aid humidity all day so you do not have to constantly mist or worry about boosting the humidity. Both products worked really well for my and my BRB.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-Reptil...ds=reptifogger

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-HygroT...5EXTPWA6KR68AY

I have glass tanks, pvc cages, and a rack. I don't find any of them any different when it comes to keeping them clean. In case you change your mind I bought my GTP cage from pvc cages and it is a great cage. You can add and they install perches, lights, rhps, and other options. Its top notch. You can even have them shipped assembled, which is what I did. Its my favorite cage.

http://pvccages.com/

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Thank you so much for all the tips! I'm actually getting a panther chameleon in the near future and was thinking I'd get a mist king auto mister set up for both the chameleon and Dexter. I will look into the Fogger more though. I've heard mixed reviews on it; did you find it to be poor quality?


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My gut says frequent misting, and skip the soaking, so he gets the benefits of humidity without the stress of being soaked.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Thank you so much for all the tips! I'm actually getting a panther chameleon in the near future and was thinking I'd get a mist king auto mister set up for both the chameleon and Dexter. I will look into the Fogger more though. I've heard mixed reviews on it; did you find it to be poor quality?

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Going with Mist King would be great.

As for the fogger it didnt give me any issues. However I did clean it regularly and used filtered water. I have always been one to take extremely good care of my things so they usually last me a good while.

It wasn't built like a tank but for what it was I thought it was a good product.

I really did love how the fog looked when it rolled in.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Going with Mist King would be great.

As for the fogger it didnt give me any issues. However I did clean it regularly and used filtered water. I have always been one to take extremely good care of my things so they usually last me a good while.

It wasn't built like a tank but for what it was I thought it was a good product.

I really did love how the fog looked when it rolled in.

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I have RO water so it would stay nice and clean, the fog is quite appealing!

I'm still wondering about using Gatorade to rehydrate him. I know other keepers have used this method, do you think it would be worth it to try?




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He's doing a bit better with more frequent misting and the majority of the screen covered. He still doesn't have that healthy shine, but he's not looking so patchy anymore.


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Im guessing gatorade would make him sticky.
Never heard of a snake being rehydrated with it but would love to here if anyone has successfully done it.
Good looking snake op :gj:

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Originally Posted by CantHelpIt

Im guessing gatorade would make him sticky.
Never heard of a snake being rehydrated with it but would love to here if anyone has successfully done it.
Good looking snake op :gj:

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Supposedly Gatorade has the needed electrolytes to rehydrate reptiles, but I agree it would be sticky! I think for now I'll just keep doing what I'm doing because it seems to actually be helping. Thank you, he's quite a stunner with the yellow, white and black!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have RO water so it would stay nice and clean, the fog is quite appealing!

I'm still wondering about using Gatorade to rehydrate him. I know other keepers have used this method, do you think it would be worth it to try?

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Sorry for the delay. You can always PM me so I get an email if you have a question. Otherwise I sometimes miss post that fall off the active list and don't realize I was asked a question.

So you got the fogger? I liked it a lot too.

As for the Gatorade I have never heard of that. I have read about adding electrolytes to water but never in a sport drink form. Its usually used with a animal that is sick or dehydrated.

As far as it helping a shed I don't believe it would do any good. Just keep the humidity up and you will get a full shed soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Supposedly Gatorade has the needed electrolytes to rehydrate reptiles, but I agree it would be sticky! I think for now I'll just keep doing what I'm doing because it seems to actually be helping. Thank you, he's quite a stunner with the yellow, white and black!

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I did some searching about it and though I see that it has been discussed I think its bogus info.

A dehydrated animal is aided by electrolytes on the inside buy drinking them. They are not going to soak them up, especially a snake. Snakes do not absorb well through their skin so I don't think it would have any actual benefit.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I did some searching about it and though I see that it has been discussed I think its bogus info.

A dehydrated animal is aided by electrolytes on the inside buy drinking them. They are not going to soak them up, especially a snake. Snakes do not absorb well through their skin so I don't think it would have any actual benefit.

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I actually didn't get the Fogger, but I have seen videos of it and it's pretty awesome. I think I am going to get a mistking set up soon though. Thanks again for all your help!


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What ever happened to the BP you had that was run on an unregulated UTH? At least I think that was it. Your tag seems really familiar.

As for that python and cage, you need a fogger. That is a pretty tall cage and its gonna take some effort to keep that humidity up. Also like said, plug off that screen on the bottom. Most snakes wont eat if their husbandry isn't right and with his skin being all dry, i'm gonna guess he is dehydrated first and foremost which will put snakes off food as well which goes back to husbandry issues. And a 60 watt bulb to heat a 4' tall cage? I use 100 watt CHEs on Herpstats to maintain 40 gallon tanks for my babies. I cant imagine a 60 watt heating a huge cage like that. like Gio mentioned, you need to review the guidelines for husbandry and then completely rework your set up to match. Best of luck getting it all straightened out.

Also as for dehydration, I have heard people soaking snakes in unflavored Pedialyte. But like mentioned, they don't soak up liquids through their skin. they need to drink and/or soak it in through their vent to an extent. The problem is even if he is drinking, if the environment is bone dry, hes going to just "sweat" the fluids out per say. I know in my house atm with it being cold, my humidity is only around 30%. no amount of drinking is going to compensate for a humidity like that on a tropical reptile.

As for heating, you need to get it to around 90F with a cool spot of 70ish. They still need heat available though at all times. It's like saying "during the day I give my boa 90F hot spot and at night it drops to 70F". That's just not gonna work. You need to provide him with a CHE at night if you plan to keep that set up you got so he can sit at be warm if wanted.

That cage is pretty nice in size but personally if it was me, I would sell it online and order a PVC cage from someone like Animal Plastics or Constrictors NW. Those cages are much easier to maintain humidity and temps with. Anyways, hope that helps some.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

What ever happened to the BP you had that was run on an unregulated UTH? At least I think that was it. Your tag seems really familiar.

As for that python and cage, you need a fogger. That is a pretty tall cage and its gonna take some effort to keep that humidity up. Also like said, plug off that screen on the bottom. Most snakes wont eat if their husbandry isn't right and with his skin being all dry, i'm gonna guess he is dehydrated first and foremost which will put snakes off food as well which goes back to husbandry issues. And a 60 watt bulb to heat a 4' tall cage? I use 100 watt CHEs on Herpstats to maintain 40 gallon tanks for my babies. I cant imagine a 60 watt heating a huge cage like that. like Gio mentioned, you need to review the guidelines for husbandry and then completely rework your set up to match. Best of luck getting it all straightened out.

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My bp Marshall is doing great. I upgraded his cage due to his apparent love for climbing. His heat source is now a regulated CHE.

If you would have read the other comments, you would notice that I'm going with mistking. The screen on the bottom has since been covered. I agree with you at he is dehydrated, he is making improvements with the daily misting though. If it gets any worse, I will look into other options. You do realize that diamonds are cold weather pythons? As you can see in the pic of his enclosure, I built a big basking ledge for him where he gets the recommended temperature of 85. You'd be surprised how how a 60w bulb can get. I have a 100w for my uro and that heats her basking spot to 130.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Also as for dehydration, I have heard people soaking snakes in unflavored Pedialyte. But like mentioned, they don't soak up liquids through their skin. they need to drink and/or soak it in through their vent to an extent. The problem is even if he is drinking, if the environment is bone dry, hes going to just "sweat" the fluids out per say. I know in my house atm with it being cold, my humidity is only around 30%. no amount of drinking is going to compensate for a humidity like that on a tropical reptile.

As for heating, you need to get it to around 90F with a cool spot of 70ish. They still need heat available though at all times. It's like saying "during the day I give my boa 90F hot spot and at night it drops to 70F". That's just not gonna work. You need to provide him with a CHE at night if you plan to keep that set up you got so he can sit at be warm if wanted.

That cage is pretty nice in size but personally if it was me, I would sell it online and order a PVC cage from someone like Animal Plastics or Constrictors NW. Those cages are much easier to maintain humidity and temps with. Anyways, hope that helps some.

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I've heard of using pedialyte. It's been hard keeping the humidity up this winter, I live in Alberta so it's very very dry! Like I said before, his basking spot is at 85 and the rest of his cage does not get any colder than 70. Diamond pythons actually do really well with a temp drop at night. Please remember that this is a diamond carpet python, not a boa or a bp.


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While a lot of well meaning folks are trying their best, they don't realize that Diamond Pythons play by a whole set of different rules. That's why you don't see very many.

The husbandry is not just like all of the other constrictors. For example, they need more ventilation in many set ups to get the heat/cool/basking spot right. So that screen of yours may actually be a benefit. Humidity is not as important as having a moist spot available, as read in the references that Gio posted. If you do follow the standard practices of the other constrictors you will end up with a dead snake eventually.

Gio posted some excellent references. Another one is Nick Mutton's book- a must have for Carpet owners.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...1a05fa9aa9.jpgAmazon, for around $40,






While there may be several Diamond keepers here, the only one I know of is DennisM, and he has 25 years of experience. If he does not post soon, you may want to send him a PM. You really need to talk to someone with experience rather than us "General constrictor keepers" (for lack of better term) to be sure that you are doing things correctly.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

My bp Marshall is doing great. I upgraded his cage due to his apparent love for climbing. His heat source is now a regulated CHE.

If you would have read the other comments, you would notice that I'm going with mistking. The screen on the bottom has since been covered. I agree with you at he is dehydrated, he is making improvements with the daily misting though. If it gets any worse, I will look into other options. You do realize that diamonds are cold weather pythons? As you can see in the pic of his enclosure, I built a big basking ledge for him where he gets the recommended temperature of 85. You'd be surprised how how a 60w bulb can get. I have a 100w for my uro and that heats her basking spot to 130.


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Good to hear about Marshall. And yes I realize diamonds are "cold weather" pythons but cold weather is a relative term. They still need a 90F hot spot at all times to regulate their temps. They are still ectothermic and especially after eating, they need to digest the food. now yes you do need a cooler spot than for say a boa or BP but regardless, they still need a nice warm spot. Of course your biggest issue is the hydration. Another thing is to maybe looking into a radiant heat panel. They don't dry the air like a bulb will. Anyways good luck and like mentioned, a vet visit might be a good idea too if he doesn't hydrate up.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

While a lot of well meaning folks are trying their best, they don't realize that Diamond Pythons play by a whole set of different rules. That's why you don't see very many.

The husbandry is not just like all of the other constrictors. For example, they need more ventilation in many set ups to get the heat/cool/basking spot right. So that screen of yours may actually be a benefit. Humidity is not as important as having a moist spot available, as read in the references that Gio posted. If you do follow the standard practices of the other constrictors you will end up with a dead snake eventually.

Gio posted some excellent references. Another one is Nick Mutton's book- a must have for Carpet owners.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...1a05fa9aa9.jpgAmazon, for around $40,






While there may be several Diamond keepers here, the only one I know of is DennisM, and he has 25 years of experience. If he does not post soon, you may want to send him a PM. You really need to talk to someone with experience rather than us "General constrictor keepers" (for lack of better term) to be sure that you are doing things correctly.

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He does have a humid hide available, but I'm finding that with most of the screen covered his skin is improving. I think I will keep it that way for the winter; Alberta winters are terribly dry and cold! He was doing quite well in the fall when he was purchased, so maybe in the summer I'll allow more ventilation. I do understand that diamonds are quite different care wise. I'm pretty new to diamonds as this wasn't even my snake to begin with! But I'm reading a lot of different Caresheets and learning a lot. As far as I can tell, my sister was doing a good job with him. I will keep tweaking his environment and researching until i find what works best for him.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

Good to hear about Marshall. And yes I realize diamonds are "cold weather" pythons but cold weather is a relative term. They still need a 90F hot spot at all times to regulate their temps. They are still ectothermic and especially after eating, they need to digest the food. now yes you do need a cooler spot than for say a boa or BP but regardless, they still need a nice warm spot. Of course your biggest issue is the hydration. Another thing is to maybe looking into a radiant heat panel. They don't dry the air like a bulb will. Anyways good luck and like mentioned, a vet visit might be a good idea too if he doesn't hydrate up.

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I actually have not seen a Caresheets suggesting a hot spot of 90 for diamonds, But 85 is popular. Diamond pythons in the wild do experience a temperature drop, and in order to maintain their body heat they curl up in a tight coil.


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When I got my Baby Diamond (Desmond), he was grumpy, and what I did was took him out often and he became super chill. Just kinda put them around your neck, or stroke them.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

While there may be several Diamond keepers here, the only one I know of is DennisM, and he has 25 years of experience. If he does not post soon, you may want to send him a PM. You really need to talk to someone with experience rather than us "General constrictor keepers" (for lack of better term) to be sure that you are doing things correctly.

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Unfortunately I have not kept pure diamonds because their unique needs do not fit the parameters of my snake room climate. I have kept many diamond intergrades including 75% diamond. The truth is I keep these in the same conditions as jungles and coastals and have done so with great success (luck?).

Here’s a link to a diamond care sheet.
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Snak...Python-Basics/

Of course, all care sheets have their own opinion, but this one is authored by Stan Chiras the first to reproduce diamonds in captivity outside of Australia. He goes into detail about the trials and tribulations of the early m.s.spilota keepers/breeders here in the U.S. I believe the care sheet is rather dated, but the experiences that Stan and others had in the 70’s remains unchanged. Of note is that it was found that a winter brumation period of 2-3 months at 50-60F with no hot spot was found to be very beneficial whether breeding or not. Year round warmer temps were found to have a negative effect on the overall health and longevity of the species.

If you do decide to get a pvc cage I highly recommend cornels world. I am also in alberta and got custom sized pvc cages built and here in under 2 weeks. So far they've been doing well and holding humidity immaculately, great quality and they look amazing.

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Originally Posted by JTA

When I got my Baby Diamond (Desmond), he was grumpy, and what I did was took him out often and he became super chill. Just kinda put them around your neck, or stroke them.

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Dexter had never been handled until my sister got him. At 4-5 years old, he had never been handled. He's not aggressive, but he does bluff quite a bit;) he's more awkward than anything. When I take him out of the enclosure he throws himself around like a slippery noodle, but we're working on it! If I try to stroke him, he usually gives me a big huff lol. It's rare for him to relax enough to stay still. He's more of a belt than a scarf. I think if Dexter was handled as a baby he would be a lot more chilled out. He does become quite placid when I take him outside in the summer though. He's a character, I love it!


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DennisM

Unfortunately I have not kept pure diamonds because their unique needs do not fit the parameters of my snake room climate. I have kept many diamond intergrades including 75% diamond. The truth is I keep these in the same conditions as jungles and coastals and have done so with great success (luck?).

Here’s a link to a diamond care sheet.
http://www.reptilesmagazine.com/Snak...Python-Basics/

Of course, all care sheets have their own opinion, but this one is authored by Stan Chiras the first to reproduce diamonds in captivity outside of Australia. He goes into detail about the trials and tribulations of the early m.s.spilota keepers/breeders here in the U.S. I believe the care sheet is rather dated, but the experiences that Stan and others had in the 70’s remains unchanged. Of note is that it was found that a winter brumation period of 2-3 months at 50-60F with no hot spot was found to be very beneficial whether breeding or not. Year round warmer temps were found to have a negative effect on the overall health and longevity of the species.

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Of all the Caresheets I've read so far, this one is my favorite. It's very straightforward.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Of all the Caresheets I've read so far, this one is my favorite. It's very straightforward.


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Right,

Which is the one I provided in the very first response.

I also stand by my recommendation which was seconded by Reinz to buy THE COMPLETE CARPET PYTHON . There is some very specific information about diamonds in the book.

Personally I would invest in the largest cage you can, within reason, and provide wide a range of climate zones.

Provide some "climate levels" as well. Perches, a "high hide box" (http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ing-IJ-Carpets), a floor hide and some moss coupled with cypress bedding for substrate, and as mentioned here, consider using a radiant heat panel (RHP) to heat the cage.

Here is a RHP setup with perches. This is a coastal mix/mutt. There are floor hides, and perches. The perch directly under the panel obviously has the warmest temp in the cage. The other areas all have slightly different temps.
http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...a/IMG_2627.jpg



Again, pure diamonds are a different bag of tricks. As I understand it, once they are crossed with another type of carpet their specific requirements tend to breed out diminishing, or totally negating the exacting husbandry the pure specimens require.

Your sister may or may not have been doing well with the animal. Reptiles tend to exhibit illnesses that stem from long term errors on our part and they don't often show up immediately. I'm not going to speculate there, as we are moving toward getting you on the right track.

You have some time to fix things, but not a lot. Handling should be extremely limited and only done when absolutely necessary. The same for feeding unless there is an obvious need for it which should not be the case with an older snake.

ANY stress the snake feels will compound the problems and the downward spiral will continue.

STUDY the care sheet, most importantly the temps. Buy that book too. Don't discount an experienced reptile vet if things don't improve.

Good luck.

I am extremely concerned right now. Dexter is in blue right now and has actually seemed a bit better with most screen closed off and the addition of a plant to help with humidity. His skin is lifted as much and he is starting to get that natural shine back. However, when I went to mist him tonight I noticed something strange. Upon further inspection, I realized it was a dead rat. There was not a strong smell, but the rat looked as though it had been regurgitated. There was a gray slimy matter surrounding the rat. This makes no sense to me at all, because he hasn't eaten for a month. Does anyone have pictures of snake vomit? I'm so sorry, I stupidly threw away the mess before taking a pic. I'm really worried about him!!


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Okay, I figured pics are really needed in this situation so I got the thing out of the garbage and I took some pics. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ad11792b4c.jpg


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That seems like a long time between eating and a regurg. Is there any way the rat was missed closer to the last feeding?

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I am extremely concerned right now. Dexter is in blue right now and has actually seemed a bit better with most screen closed off and the addition of a plant to help with humidity. His skin is lifted as much and he is starting to get that natural shine back. However, when I went to mist him tonight I noticed something strange. Upon further inspection, I realized it was a dead rat. There was not a strong smell, but the rat looked as though it had been regurgitated. There was a gray slimy matter surrounding the rat. This makes no sense to me at all, because he hasn't eaten for a month. Does anyone have pictures of snake vomit? I'm so sorry, I stupidly threw away the mess before taking a pic. I'm really worried about him!!


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That looks like regurge to me even though the gray color is gone. When one of my Coastals regurged it was slimy and gray as well.

Keep in mind that there is a difference between vomit and regurge. Regurge is undigested food, vomit is more broken down, partially digested.

I agree with KMG, one month since eating and regurge doesn't add up. Regurge usually occurs within a few days.

Maybe Dexter regurged in his hide and dragged it out a month later?

Be sure his next meal is the next size smaller. His esophagus is still repairing itself from the damage done to it from the regurge. Also, wait 2weeks to feed again from time of the regurge, which may be hard to figure out in this case.

Too dry and he ended up dehydrated, too humid and now he has mild scale rot. I've moved him to a hospital tank with paper towel, his heat lamp, two hides and a small water dish. Picking up some betadine cream later too.

I know people always ask this question, but is it possible for a snake to go in blue and not shed? A week ago he went blue so I kept the humidity up. After he returned to normal, I waited several days but no shed. I gave him a bath today to try and get the shed off(assuming it was stuck)which led me to discover the scale rot, but no skin.


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Sorry to hear the bad news. :(

I can't see how JUST too high of humidity would cause scale rot.

Bacteria + high humidity is a high risk for scale rot.

4 of my snakes live in their water bowls with proper heat and humidity. Two of them are Carpets.

When I first moved Lizzy, my Coastal Carpet to a PVC I over watered the Eco-earth and had humidity in the 80-90's for a month. I was constantly airing out the cage with a fan, but good levels were short lived.

To get the scale rot bacteria must be present.

Maybe you missed some excretions while spot cleaning. Or the snake layed in his own mess which got imbedded under the scales. That along with high humidity could cause the rot.

Blue/shed

Just recently I had 2 snakes go blue and did not shed. One was my juvie Jungle Carpet.

My adult BP seems to do it about once a yr.


I sure hope your Diamond heals up well.


Esmarelda, Jungle Carpet
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...662441e63c.jpg



Lizzy, Coastal Carpet
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...b7dd0fe15d.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Sorry to hear the bad news. :(

I can't see how JUST too high of humidity would cause scale rot.

Bacteria + high humidity is a high risk for scale rot.

4 of my snakes live in their water bowls with proper heat and humidity. Two of them are Carpets.

When I first moved Lizzy, my Coastal Carpet to a PVC I over watered the Eco-earth and had humidity in the 80-90's for a month. I was constantly airing out the cage with a fan, but good levels were short lived.

To get the scale rot bacteria must be present.

Maybe you missed some excretions while spot cleaning. Or the snake layed in his own mess which got imbedded under the scales. That along with high humidity could cause the rot.

Blue/shed

Just recently I had 2 snakes go blue and did not shed. One was my juvie Jungle Carpet.

My adult BP seems to do it about once a yr.


I sure hope your Diamond heals up well.


Esmarelda, Jungle Carpet
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...662441e63c.jpg



Lizzy, Coastal Carpet
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...b7dd0fe15d.jpg

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All I think of is that regurgitated rat that I somehow didn't notice, I guess that would be the bacteria.:( ?Where can I get the betadine? Also, should I apply it daily?


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Betadine, aka providone-iodine, should be available at any pharmacy, and pharmacy sections of larger stores. Ointment is most common in my experience, but it is also available as a wash/solution.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prognathodon

Betadine, aka providone-iodine, should be available at any pharmacy, and pharmacy sections of larger stores. Ointment is most common in my experience, but it is also available as a wash/solution.


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Thanks. I'd prefer a cream style over a liquid, much easier to apply that way. Should I treat him everyday? Do I need to wash the ointment off?


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Yes, Betadine is readily available. The label may not billboard that it is Betadine. It may say First Aid Rinse , etc. Just read the ingredients.

I have no experience treating scale rot. I can only give you an opinion on what I have read and this is how I would do it. Unless someone I respect here has valuable, different input from experience

I've read to make anywhere from a 1-5% solution bath in a tub. I wouldn't get hung up on numbers. Just stir a solution until it becomes a light funky brownish-orange.

Some wipe on with a towel and leave it.

I like the idea of the bath because as the snake moves in the bath, the solution can get underneath the scales as well.

Do it daily for 15-20 min, then rinse.

I don't like the idea of testing the water temp by "feel", as in lukewarm. Our body temp is 98 degrees. What feels lukewarm to us can be too hot for the snake. That's why some snakes will spaz out trying to get out of the water.

I use my temp gun an try to achieve 77--84 degree range if possible ( it will actually feel cool ). I find it less stressful the few times I needed to bathe a nasty snake. Like the time Lizzy regurged in her bowl and laid in it completely.

If no improvement in 4-5 days, consider a topical antibiotic. If that doesn't help, go see a vet for more aggressive treatment.

add:

The "bath is in a plastic tub with the solution deep enough to completely cover the snake. Then place the lid on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinz

Yes, Betadine is readily available. The label may not billboard that it is Betadine. It may say First Aid Rinse , etc. Just read the ingredients.

I have no experience treating scale rot. I can only give you an opinion on what I have read and this is how I would do it. Unless someone I respect here has valuable, different input from experience

I've read to make anywhere from a 1-5% solution bath in a tub. I wouldn't get hung up on numbers. Just stir a solution until it becomes a light funky brownish-orange.

Some wipe on with a towel and leave it.

I like the idea of the bath because as the snake moves in the bath, the solution can get underneath the scales as well.

Do it daily for 15-20 min, then rinse.

I don't like the idea of testing the water temp by "feel", as in lukewarm. Our body temp is 98 degrees. What feels lukewarm to us can be too hot for the snake. That's why some snakes will spaz out trying to get out of the water.

I use my temp gun an try to achieve 77--84 degree range if possible ( it will actually feel cool ). I find it less stressful the few times I needed to bathe a nasty snake. Like the time Lizzy regurged in her bowl and laid in it completely.

If no improvement in 4-5 days, consider a topical antibiotic. If that doesn't help, go see a vet for more aggressive treatment.

add:

The "bath is in a plastic tub with the solution deep enough to completely cover the snake. Then place the lid on.

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Thanks so much for your help. Maybe I will go with the liquid kind then.

I generally do test the water by feel, making sure it feels just slightly warm. The few times I've given Dexter a bath it has been right In my bathtub, and he seems quite content as long as I'm not touching him!


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I've never treated scale rot, either, but for the bath method I'd start with Betadine liquid rather than trying to dissolve the ointment.


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In the drier climate I've put him in, patches of stuck shed have become quite apparent. I gave him a soak for an hour and then used a rubber finger tip to get some of the shed off. He's pretty long and easily stressed so I didn't get it all off, but over the next few days I'll keep working on it. I was never able to find betadine, apparently it's not very available anymore. However, with the drier climate his scale rot has cleared up almost completely. I'm going to make some modifications to his enclosure tomorrow: a deep clean, paper substrate instead of mulch, and the addition of a much bigger water dish; I'm hoping it will take up a little under half of his floor space. I've also realized that the suggestion of covering up most of the screen was wrong- he does far better with more ventilation. Diamonds are quite tricky to provide for it seems. I think they are very sensitive to cage conditions yet there's not much information out here on correct conditions. Trial and error I suppose.


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This poor snake of mine. I soaked him for 3 hours today which led to me discover that he has a very small, tight layer of stuck shed on him. I assumed that since his scales were lifting that they were rotting , but the skin was so tightly stuck on that the layer of skin had lifted the scales up and was stuck underneath the scales... Wait, there's more. Once I finally found his precious beautiful scales underneath the layer, I saw blood. I thought I must be rubbing too hard, yet no matter how lightly and gently I rubbed the shed away he bled. Obviously scales cannot bleed, but the skin underneath his scales must be the victim of the bleeding and is coming through. I didn't remove all the shed, but I got most of the shed off of his head and mouth area and a few patches along his back. I'm really worried about him. Has anyone ever had this experience with the bleeding? I researched online and it all related back to scale rot and the sensitivities of carpets and diamonds. I still haven't been able to kind any betadine, but I'm going to search more tomorrow as well as talk to an experienced reptile enthusiast. After talking to this person tomorrow and (hopefully) starting the betadine treatment, I hope things start to look up for Dexter. If not, it's time for the vet. Has anyone ever seen a shed like what I've described? I've seen pictures of stuck shed that flakes off and of multiple layers of shed that have to be cut off, but never this. The shed had wrapped around each scale so tightly, no wonder his shedding cycles have been so confusing. Any advice is wanted and appreciated!!!


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You should post pics of the scale rot you speak of. It doesn't really sound like scale rot to me as it seems to be on the snakes back and not mainly the belly, is this the case?

As to covering the lid that can be some trial and error but I don't see how you created such high humidity so quickly to cause the new issues. Were you having an issue with the glass walls of the cage building humidity and creating heavy moisture build up?

Did you get a IR temp gun to check the temps of the cage? In particularly the ledge you created as a hotspot?

The "hospital tank" may or may not be a good idea. I fear that you are going from one extreme to the other instead of making the small adjustments needed to get the husbandry correct.

You need to spend the money and do things right. If you are unable to provide the correct humidity with misting yourself you need to get a MistKing system of Fogger with a ReptiTherm unit to monitor and turn on and off the systems as needed. You also should place the light on a proportional tstat so the light is providing just what is needed at all times. I think doing those two things will put you in a good spot but I certainly will not persuade you to not also buy a better pvc cage.

Trying to keep more advanced snakes while using techniques and equipment not suited for it is going to be a up hill battle. Its always cheaper to do it right the first time. Spend the money now and get it done right. If you don't you will end up spending more on vet bills and eventually the right gear.

Im sorry your having this much trouble and we need to get things right so both you and the snake are in a better place.

Wow ... So much conflicting advice bud .
I'm wondering if at this stage a visit to a vet maybe best if only for your peace of mind . Are their any reptile vets close by or at least a vet with plenty of experience with snakes and the like ..?

Good luck anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Wow ... So much conflicting advice bud .
I'm wondering if at this stage a visit to a vet maybe best if only for your peace of mind . Are their any reptile vets close by or at least a vet with plenty of experience with snakes and the like ..?

Good luck anyways.

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I suggested a vet a while back. It's time.

We can't play "doctor's in" over the internet any longer.

This thread is 5 pages long and nothing has changed.

Get to a professional or the snake is going to die.

Sad to say it but it's true.

I went back through the entire thread.

I don't believe you caused "mild scale rot" in the short amount of time in the conditions you have described. If anything I would have thought you were setting the snake up for an RI. What makes you believe it is scale rot? I think it sounds more like a burn but without being there or at least seeing some pics we are all guessing here.

You need to help us help the snake. The snake is not causing this, you are. If it were me I would be living on the BP.net and checking every post my thread got and giving a play by play of what is happening in the attempt of creating the correct husbandry for my snake.

While I may be with the others agreeing its time to see a vet the issue of husbandry is going to still be an issue at home and needs to be addressed. Without fixing it the snake has no chance of making it. If the vet is not an option because of money it may be time to suck it up and pass the snake on to a more experienced keeper. It sucks but you really need to do what is best for the snake and you and your sis have not been achieving that. Im not trying to be rude or make you feel bad. Im just trying to do what is best for the snake.

I am here to help and will continue to do so. We need you to step up and do what it takes to make things right. You need to buy the proper equipment and get a proper setup.

Lets start over on some things:

What is the setup right now? How is the cage setup? Pics would be best(top view too.)

Did you get a mister or fogger?

Do you have a temp gun?

Whats the humidity staying at?