Snake cognitive ability and affection.

I want to first start off saying I work as a scientist and have a Masters in Environmental Science. I know a little bit about animal behavior.

Now that I have that disclaimer out of the way, I want to start a discussion that has been kicked around on various forums.

Do snakes show affection? I read that snakes have no concept of love and even read from so called experts that they have no memory. First we can throw out the concept of snakes having no memory out the window because conditioning proves that they have memory.

Now what do they think of us? Are we a warm moving tree that provides food? I think they are a little smarter than that. When a baby snake hatches its instinct is to strike at us, it's fearful that it might get eaten by the big creature that is holding it. I do believe they understand us as living beings just like them. So what happens after a while when we own the little snake and he calms down and let's us handle him? It is my belief that the snake has a level of trust because it learns that it is safe when it is with you. We all know that snakes trust some people and not others. They recognize owners either by sight or scent. We hear time and again of how the husband or wife can take the snake out but the snake strikes at the spouse. The snake trusts one particular person and that person has earned the snakes trust and respect.

Now do snakes love? Being they supposedly are missing that part of the brain or its underdeveloped scientists say no. But there are other senses that animals have that people don't have. Maybe the snake doesn't love you but it associates you with good and I can see that they could have enjoyment out of being out of their enclosure being with you. If you were to die it's not going to cry but may wonder why it's not being taken out by its big creature that it trusts.

Now some may argue that snakes don't understand good. There is always a opposite reaction to something. If a snake understands fear it must have feelings of good whether it's happiness we have no way to measure that. But let's say they have feeling of the opposite of fear.

So to end this, I believe snakes can be conditioned and they have limited ability to form bonds with people. They can learn to trust you and associate you with good things like feeding, being taken out of the enclosure and safety. So if a snake associates you with good and trusts you, I think that is a pretty good bond to have.


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Please excuse the grammar it was written on my iPhone.


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I studied quite a bit of animal behavior myself while in college. However, I don't recall studying reptiles and that was a lifetime ago.

I agree with you on the memory. To back it up, when I let my 13 yr old BP out to play on her own in her locked room. Hours later I can always find her in the same place. Not just under the nearby dresser, but in a place that takes some complex moves and a lot of energy to get to, inside a closed wardrobe.

Many creatures have genetic makeup that just make them do certain things, these are "innate". Like ducklings following the first thing they see that moves, whether it is a balloon or a dog. Hopefully it should be their mother as nature intended to insure their security.

I believe that snakes are just innately "afraid" of creatures of a certain height or more. Such as, fox, dogs, cats, birds, man, etc.
This is why I believe so many hatchlings strike right out of the egg and or soon after.
It is after all of the "conditioning" we do and memory of the snake that calms it.

I don't believe in emotions in the snake. It is curious. It moves this way or that way.
It may prefer one spouse due to lack of perfume or body odor or due to it. It may be conditioned "to" a scent so to speak, like that is safe.
And that is the bottom line, safe mode, or not? That is what the snake senses and crawls to check out. Not because it likes you.

It makes us feel good and justify ownership by saying "she likes me!"

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...d16ed188e3.jpg

My argument is snakes like safe and if a snake feels safe with you than it likes you. I agree that a snake will never like you for you, only because you provide something.


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Hey Billy29, I'm a scientist as well, getting my PhD in Neurotoxicology currently, have my masters in molecular and biochemical environmental toxicology also. Glad to see other scientists on here. When thinking about this issue as a neuroscientist, I look at the vestigial structure of the reptilian brain and say that snakes are capable of only basic 'emotions' like, "Im hungry, cold, too hot, thirsty, scared, angy etc," as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala). Due to reptiles not having a concerted and organized distinct cerebral cortex, most would consider reptiles incapable of having intricate thought processes of love, affection, and complex memories. However, they do retain basic structures in the dorsal region of the brain in a very primordial fashion, which can hint at what were first evolutionary steps towards a cortex. Meaning, while we can't directly identify a brain region that we dogmatically think of being associated with higher mammals capable of complex emotions, it doesn't mean that certain neuronal structures aren't capable of creating behavior that is similar. With this in mind we can rationalize that a snake is definitely able to make associations with certain objects, whether human or inanimate. Basically 'human means food' and 'human not predator.'

Now looking at this as a herper, rather than a scientist, I can say that I have seen reptiles do amazingly 'smart' things. Frequently we see a snake prefer to be handled by one sex over the other, or even one person over the other. Why is that? Is the snake recognizing actual physical characteristics? Or is the snake seeing different thermal signatures from individuals and prefers one to another? When it comes to lizards and monitors the debate gets even better. Tegus and many monitor lizards are capable of recognizing their individual owner and coming to them. Do they seek their owner out for affection, or just because they associate him/her with food? Ask many Tegu owners and they will say that their fully fed and satiated tegu will come up to them to be pet and held. There are plenty of youtube videos of people's black throat monitors laying on their owner and seemingly enjoying affection. While it is unlikely that we can anthropomorphize reptiles enough to have them actually craving our attention, it does seem like they are much more capable of bonding and having a sense of 'understanding' with their keepers.

You both have very valuable points.. But I do tend to agree that a snake can be conditioned to trust as well,based o.n my own experience with my animals, yet they are still animals and I know at times I am over humanizing their responses to coincide with the emotions I am familiar with. Abigail, my pinstripe,for example, does strike out at my spouse in a fearful fashion, but happily crawls up my arm after being rudely awakened by yanking her hide off. She'stare at me a moment, give a great yawn, and then crawls right into my hand and up my arm. From there I either let her roam my desk, where she always ends up back my lap, or I set her free on my bed where she enjoys tunneling sheets only to eventually crawl her way up onto my chest. Once there she tucks her head in my Palm where I then gently stroke her skull and slender neck. Now most would assume she's just tolerating my touch, and I would agree if she had only done this once, but this is routine, would she not avoid resting her head in my hands, having the conditioning to know that I "WIL" touch her vulnerable area? I don't see snake as an actually showing affection per say, more like seeing us as a security blanket of sorts. But on that note, to bring down the snake gods on my head, I do handle my girls Dailey, which seems to increase their confidence not diminish it. Is it possible to love your security blanket? I don't know. Humans fall in love with their body guards all the time, But even if I strain I could only guess loose affection for lack of a better term.

Long story short, yes, I believe some sort of bond exists beyond the feeder/fed position. Or as I said, maybe I'm just over humanizing and relating my emotions to an animal who has a cunning similar to a Cat who will fake affection to get those tasty hand outs.

(I hope this makes any sense whatsoever, I'm sunning on little sleep and even less caffeine, but this post reeealllly caught my attention)

This is a very interesting topic and I'm sure will spawn a very passionate discussion. I'm no scientists and won't claim to be, I'm just a snake owner and reptile enthusiast. I can say that from experience at least my retics do show some sort of bond with me. They come right up to me when I open their cages and will even seek me out when I have them out exploring, either the house or the yard. I'll have to get video of it sometime but my sunfire girl will only go a short distance from me before coming back and crawling right into my lap. Now is this affection? I like to think so, but I know more than likely she's just more comfortable with me than out in an unknown place.
My bearded dragon on the other hand he might, he genuinely seems to enjoy contact with me. He will just sit with while I watch TV or clean his cage or whatever. I've heard of the lizards being slightly more "domesticated" but I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. Another interesting case is my pinstripe ball python, he's super head shy and twitchy with everyone but my friend Danni and me. And she's only held him a handful of times. So I don't know, I do believe they form bonds bit beyond that I'm not really sure.

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I'm an ecologist, but my background is pretty heavy in psych and neuroscience, so hopefully I can be useful in this conversation. :)

In regards to memory, I don't think snakes have the capability to actively think of things that are not in their immediate vicinity/situation. Probably the most similar analogy I can think of for this is human infants lacking object permanence; they know mom when she's in the room, but if mom covers her face with her hands she suddenly disappears to them, and then reappears when she removes her hands (thus why peekaboo is so entertaining). I honestly think I cease to exist to my snakes when I walk out of the room, and begin to exist again when I walk back in. Now, my turtle seems to have some degree of object permanence, as I will often walk in to find her on her hind legs stretching to get a view of the door, which she would have no reason to do if she didn't believe I was going to walk back in through it.

I think as far as recognizing people it's almost all down to scent. It may be slightly different for constrictors than colubrids due to their ability to see thermal signatures, but I think scent is still the primary recognition mechanism there too; I'm basing this on the fact that my BP knows there's a rat around even when she's in her hide and my husband is out in the hallway with the rat. There's no way she could be sensing it's specific heat signature that far away.

For colubrids, I have the somewhat unique experience of having a snake who is completely blind; which is another example of learning through conditioning, as I had to teach him how to eat again as he was losing his sight. There's a very specific ritual I have to follow when feeding him, and if I vary it even slightly he will not eat. But back to recognition, he still recognizes me and is fine with me picking him up, but will absolutely lose his mind if anyone else goes into his tank. Having no ability to sense specific heat signatures, he has to be using smell to identify me.

I'm not a scientist or anything like that. Just an animal lover. My recent rescue snake, a very young pastel, seemed incredibly aggressive toward it's former owner. It would hiss and strike, and couldn't be handled by her at all. However I was able to reach into the cage and take the little one out, easily hold it and even rub it's head. I don't see why the snake would do that if it didn't recognize it's former owner in some way, and associate it with negative feelings. I don't think they have thoughts of love, or would really seek out affection, but the are pretty smart.

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Originally Posted by duckschainsaw

I'm not a scientist or anything like that. Just an animal lover. My recent rescue snake, a very young pastel, seemed incredibly aggressive toward it's former owner. It would hiss and strike, and couldn't be handled by her at all. However I was able to reach into the cage and take the little one out, easily hold it and even rub it's head. I don't see why the snake would do that if it didn't recognize it's former owner in some way, and associate it with negative feelings. I don't think they have thoughts of love, or would really seek out affection, but the are pretty smart.

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I'm not sure a snake would have the ability to associate neglect with a person; neglect being the absence of care rather than actively harming and badgering an animal. I just don't think they're complex enough to have a concept of a person's obligation to care for them, so they can't understand the concept of a person not caring for them. I do however think most snakes have a certain set of 'triggers' that will cause them to go nuts (coming straight at their face, picking them up from the wrong angle, pressure from below not being a problem but pressure from above typically causing a defensive reaction) and that people familiar with snakes instinctively avoid these triggers when handling them. This is why you can handle wild snakes without getting tagged if you play your cards right; it's all about not tripping those natural defense mechanisms. Someone neglecting a snake probably never bothered to learn how to actually act around them to avoid getting a bad reaction.
That's just my take on that anyway. I think initially handling a snake is down to how good you are at reading them, and that trust through conditioning is something that develops over time with a good owner. I agree though, they are smarter than most people give them credit for.

They are definitely smarter than most people would admit. And with some I'd have to say more intelligent as well, the animals I have the most experience with are my retics and my anaconda. Maybe that higher "intelligence" can be attributed to at least some snakes showing what can be construed as "affection"

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Snakes are brilliant - at being snakes. And they can definitely remember things that are relevant to them.

I have a terrarium on top of a desk. One time the snake went missing for weeks, and I finally found it on the floor of in my bedroom closet - inside a comic book box. The closet is consistently the darkest, quietest area of my apartment so it made sense he'd like being in it.

To get there, it had to:
climb down from the desk
travel along 2 walls of the living room - behind the tv stand, in front of bookcases, past balcony door, under part of sofa
go through a small opening in the wall for the radiator pipe
travel along 2 walls of the bedroom
into the closet and into a hiding spot.

That's quite a long and complicated route, there are obstructions along the way the snake had to get around, over, and through. But he really likes that dark and quiet closet. As a test, I allowed him to escape one night and kept watching, and he got back to the closet faster than I was expecting. Now, I can put him down pretty much anywhere in the apartment, leave the PVC cage door open, and he will find his way back there and get into the warm hide pretty quickly. And when I blocked access to the hole in the wall, he figured out an alternate route to the closet! So I bought a PVC cage and put it on the floor of the closet, as a 'second home' for him for when I'm cleaning the glass terrarium, or have people over and there's going to be a lot of noise/activity in the living room.
And it's a safety device because if he does manage to escape his terrarium or otherwise goes missing, odds are very good I'll find him in his second home.

interesting topic

i don't know if they do feelings, but all my BPs seem to have their own distinct personality, i can tell you that much

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Hey Billy29, I'm a scientist as well, getting my PhD in Neurotoxicology currently, have my masters in molecular and biochemical environmental toxicology also. Glad to see other scientists on here. When thinking about this issue as a neuroscientist, I look at the vestigial structure of the reptilian brain and say that snakes are capable of only basic 'emotions' like, "Im hungry, cold, too hot, thirsty, scared, angy etc," as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala). Due to reptiles not having a concerted and organized distinct cerebral cortex, most would consider reptiles incapable of having intricate thought processes of love, affection, and complex memories. However, they do retain basic structures in the dorsal region of the brain in a very primordial fashion, which can hint at what were first evolutionary steps towards a cortex. Meaning, while we can't directly identify a brain region that we dogmatically think of being associated with higher mammals capable of complex emotions, it doesn't mean that certain neuronal structures aren't capable of creating behavior that is similar. With this in mind we can rationalize that a snake is definitely able to make associations with certain objects, whether human or inanimate. Basically 'human means food' and 'human not predator.'

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What are they teaching Phd's these days? Certainly not the meaning of the word vestigial. Snake brains are in no way vestigial. Vestigial organs are organs reduced to being useless by evolution. For example the eyes in a blind salamander. The salamander no longer needs to see, since it lives in a dark cave, as a result the eyes are much reduced and no longer function as eyes. In contrast the snakes brain is a highly derived organ, with many specific and important functions. Furthermore the phrase "... as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala)." Suggests that reptiles somehow lost other portions of a brain they once had. This is simply not true. Snakes never had mammalian brains to begin with. Snake brains are not atrophied or degenerate. They have not lost functionality.

If we were engaging in comparative neuro-anatomy a few decades ago, we might refer to the snake brain as primitive or basal. Of course as the animal kingdom has been explored, it has been found that many animals with brains that are significantly different from humans are still capable of remarkably complex behaviors. Birds who's brains are look very similar to snake brains with swollen frontal cortexes, are capable of complex migrations, 3 dimensional navigation, developing family structure, building complex nests, parental care, learning, teaching, and planning out task in multiple steps. The do all of this without the sophisticated neo-cortex of mammals. Snakes birds, and mammals all have a forebrain, they all have a cerebellum, and they all have a medulla oblongota. See the image here http://www.daviddarling.info/images/reptilian_brain.jpg . We notice that the reptile brain has all the parts of a brain, but those parts are developed differently. The parts of the brain that are found in mammals all developed from or are expansions of parts of the reptilian brain.

If the kinds of behaviors we frequently identify as mammalian are observed in birds and fish, and even many reptiles then it suggests that like the brains of these animals, the basis of these behaviors is found deep in evolutionary history of vertebrates. In short, all of the behaviors and emotions we view as distinctly mammalian, likely come from a brain very similar to a snakes brain. The snake brain very likely contains the seeds of all of these behaviors and emotions. Snake brains are not degenerate, useless, brains that retain the bare minimum of parts of more advanced brains. They are actually highly evolved versions of the basal brains that would become avian and mammalian brains after many millions of years of evolution.

David

[QUOTE=nightrainfalls;2360758]What are they teaching Phd's these days? Certainly not the meaning of the word vestigial. Snake brains are in no way vestigial. Vestigial organs are organs reduced to being useless by evolution. For example the eyes in a blind salamander. The salamander no longer needs to see, since it lives in a dark cave, as a result the eyes are much reduced and no longer function as eyes. In contrast the snakes brain is a highly derived organ, with many specific and important functions. Furthermore the phrase "... as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala)." Suggests that reptiles somehow lost other portions of a brain they once had. This is simply not true. Snakes never had mammalian brains to begin with. Snake brains are not atrophied or degenerate. They have not lost functionality.

If we were engaging in comparative neuro-anatomy a few decades ago, we might refer to the snake brain as primitive or basal. Of course as the animal kingdom has been explored, it has been found that many animals with brains that are significantly different from humans are still capable of remarkably complex behaviors. Birds who's brains are look very similar to snake brains with swollen frontal cortexes, are capable of complex migrations, 3 dimensional navigation, developing family structure, building complex nests, parental care, learning, teaching, and planning out task in multiple steps. The do all of this without the sophisticated neo-cortex of mammals. Snakes birds, and mammals all have a forebrain, they all have a cerebellum, and they all have a medulla oblongota. See the image here http://www.daviddarling.info/images/reptilian_brain.jpg . We notice that the reptile brain has all the parts of a brain, but those parts are developed differently. The parts of the brain that are found in mammals all developed from or are expansions of parts of the reptilian brain.

If the kinds of behaviors we frequently identify as mammalian are observed in birds and fish, and even many reptiles then it suggests that like the brains of these animals, the basis of these behaviors is found deep in evolutionary history of vertebrates. In short, all of the behaviors and emotions we view as distinctly mammalian, likely come from a brain very similar to a snakes brain. The snake brain very likely contains the seeds of all of these behaviors and emotions. Snake brains are not degenerate, useless, brains that retain the bare minimum of parts of more advanced brains. They are actually highly evolved versions of the basal brains that would become avian and mammalian brains after many millions of years of evolution.




You vastly missed the point I was trying to make, and the insults implied are not appreciated. If I had the time to sit here and hold your hand while trying to help you understand my passage, I would, but I can't.

I whole heartedly apologize for my misuse of the word 'vestigial.' Not having participated in evolutionary biology courses for over a decade has obviously left me rusty. My time spent as a molecular biologist and biochemist at a medical school must have somehow dulled my understanding of this word. Hopefully you can find it in your vestigial heart to forgive me.

I feel like a PhD is required just to participate in this discussion..

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Originally Posted by Tsanford

I feel like a PhD is required just to participate in this discussion..

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Nah.

The best keepers I know are just the normal guys (and girls) who really like snakes.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Nah.

The best keepers I know are just the normal guys (and girls) who really like snakes.

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I agree. I wasn't trying to get too academic. Just thought it would be interesting to throw some science in. Although some on here think its more fun to take out a red pen and grade peoples responses.

I don't have a PhD in anything but here are my thoughts. They don't bond with each other then why would snakes bond with us? I don't see an evolutionary advantage to keeping a emotional bonding in an animal that does not bond with others of it's kind. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit but so are many fish.

Comparing reptiles to birds also seems very apples to oranges. Birds are warm blooded which to me, makes a big difference. With snakes being cold blooded I would think they would use their brain differently.

If nightrainfalls would like, I could start posting like I'm writing a formal dissertation :P. Of course, that wouldn't make a lot of sense to anyone reading this but me, Josh, and maybe a couple others that have studied neuroscience in-depth at a university level. There's formal, accurate, scientific speech, then there's speech you use in general conversation. I personally had no problem figuring out exactly what Josh was talking about, and I don't think anyone else did either. It wouldn't make since for the people on here who work in the legal system to flawlessly use courtroom jargon when discussing legislation, and it doesn't make sense for scientists to use flawless vernacular in a public forum either.

Josh, despite your apology, I'm not sure I can forgive you for misusing the word 'vestigial' in casual conversation like that. I know I, personally, would never make such an error, as my hippocampus functions excellently :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by HVani

I don't have a PhD in anything but here are my thoughts. They don't bond with each other then why would snakes bond with us? I don't see an evolutionary advantage to keeping a emotional bonding in an animal that does not bond with others of it's kind. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit but so are many fish.

Comparing reptiles to birds also seems very apples to oranges. Birds are warm blooded which to me, makes a big difference. With snakes being cold blooded I would think they would use their brain differently.

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I would argue that there are some exceptions to the rule of 'no bonding' with each other. I think the capability of any animal to bond is directly related to how long they spend around others of their kind, even in mammals. For example, possums (using this as an example because I've worked with them) are completely solitary with the exception of mating and the very brief period of time they provide maternal care. Not a lot of bonding capability there; they can recognize and enjoy their keepers, but it's a fragile bond. Make one wrong noise and you're immediately seen as a predator again, and you need to leave and try again the next day. Something like a herd animal, or mammal that spends years nurturing their young has a much greater capability for bonding.

Back to snakes though, some snakes only need to 'bond' when mating or immediately after birthing. Yes, this is driven to a large extent by hormones, but 'feel good' neurochemicals associated with bonding are released during the process to keep a mating pair from injuring one another, or to keep a mother from instantly gobbling up her young. In some species, such as garters, which brumate communally, there is more advanced social behavior. Head-bobbing, for instance (to my knowledge that hasn't been scientifically studied, but anyone with garters has seen it) is a way to diffuse tension between new acquaintances, and is most typically seen when meeting new snakes but not as much between long-term cagemates who know each other, suggesting the ability to recognize the difference between 'new' snakes and 'safe' snakes they already know.

I think there is also a connection between social capability and snakes that are born live (and therefore much more likely to potentially injure littermates if there is no 'bonding' taking place than species that hatch out and crawl away, unlikely to even meet their siblings). The study is still in the works, but at my last convention I was talking to a herpetologist studying copperheads (live-birth species). Apparently, even being separated shortly after birth, littermates showed much more social behavior (tongue-flicking and investigating rather than immediate aggression or flight response) than unrelated snakes of comparable size, sex, and age.

So basically, I think it's down to how you define 'bonding'. It's certainly more simplistic than the bond you have with your dog or cat, but I would argue that it's there.

Fascinating!

I think I meant bonding more in the mammalian sense, but we are talking of reptiles so maybe that's asking too much. I think my snake knows that I will not cause them harm, but beyond that I don't see much bonding. I think putting it terms of 'safe' and 'not safe' is a good way to describe it. I don't believe they are capable of complex emotional bonding or love. But that's ok. I just enjoy them for what they are IMO.

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Originally Posted by HVani

Fascinating!

I think I meant bonding more in the mammalian sense, but we are talking of reptiles so maybe that's asking too much. I think my snake knows that I will not cause them harm, but beyond that I don't see much bonding. I think putting it terms of 'safe' and 'not safe' is a good way to describe it. I don't believe they are capable of complex emotional bonding or love. But that's ok. I just enjoy them for what they are IMO.

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I agree. I think you can kind of divide bonding into two parts; the chemicals that cause a 'feeling' and the ability to actively think about that feeling (not in the abstract human sense, but in the "I hope mommy comes home soon!" puppy dog sense). I believe snakes have the first, but not the second.

EDIT: OMG I just scrolled up and saw a typo in my previous post, and it will not let me edit. This bothers me far more than it should.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

I whole heartedly apologize for my misuse of the word 'vestigial.' Not having participated in evolutionary biology courses for over a decade has obviously left me rusty. My time spent as a molecular biologist and biochemist at a medical school must have somehow dulled my understanding of this word. Hopefully you can find it in your vestigial heart to forgive me.

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Dear Josh,

If you think I have a vestigial heart, then wait until you defend your thesis. I have seen people walk right out of the dissertation room and book their room at a mental hospital. Saying that this is not an entirely benign process is like saying that stage 4 malignant melanoma is not an entirely benign skin condition. If you use a word incorrectly in your thesis, you may find that the examiners jump so far down your throat, you need a proctologist to remove them.

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Originally Posted by Tsanford

I feel like a PhD is required just to participate in this discussion..

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Dear Tsanford,

No of course you don't.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

If nightrainfalls would like, I could start posting like I'm writing a formal dissertation :P. Of course, that wouldn't make a lot of sense to anyone reading this but me, Josh, and maybe a couple others that have studied neuroscience in-depth at a university level. There's formal, accurate, scientific speech, then there's speech you use in general conversation. I personally had no problem figuring out exactly what Josh was talking about, and I don't think anyone else did either. It wouldn't make since for the people on here who work in the legal system to flawlessly use courtroom jargon when discussing legislation, and it doesn't make sense for scientists to use flawless vernacular in a public forum either.

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Dear DVirginiana,

Of course I don't think that we need to write responses on this post as if we are writing formal dissertations. I am insisting that those who cloak themselves in white lab coats and bonafides, who represent themselves as experts, provide accurate information to the public. The public deserves nothing less. We have all spent a lot of time and money getting our education, and we should not be sloppy in the information we give to the public. When a scientist gives the public bad information because he is too lazy to give good information, it is dangerous, dishonest, and disrespectful to the public. Furthermore, it is the duty of scientists to correct profoundly inaccurate information. If you read the post I criticized and got correct information out of it, it is only because you have an education that let you disregard the bad information provided and substitute good information. The public does not have the benefit of your education. When scientists accept the idea that they do not have to be accurate with the public, simply because the public will not understand the jargon we use, we create a divide between scientists and the public. When we misinform the public on the small matters, they doubt us on the large matters. The language we use with the public is profoundly important. It must be understandable and accurate.

Let us look at the statement in question. "...I look at the vestigial structure of the reptilian brain and say that snakes are capable of only basic 'emotions' like, "Im hungry, cold, too hot, thirsty, scared, angy etc," as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala). " This statement has numerous scientific fallacies. It misleads the public. Josh claims, he did not mean to do so and I take him at his word, but if we look at the statement the way a non scientist with a dictionary would, we will see how misleading the statement actually is. It is misleading particularly because the statement uses scientific jargon inaccurately.

Let us start with the beginning. Josh describes the snake brain using term vestigial which means "(of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution." He then proceeds to state that the snake brain is capable of only basic emotions because it retains only two parts, the medulla oblongata and the amygdala.

You and I know that the snake brain has more parts: forebrain, midbrain, cerebellum and a medulla oblongata to name a few. The public may or may not know this. If the public does not know the topography of a snake's brain, then they may well believe that snake brains have degenerated to only two parts and that snakes are limited by this degeneration. We could not blame a member of the public for coming to this erroneous conclusion, because explicitly and implicitly, this is exactly what the sentence says. This is both profoundly inaccurate and grossly misleading. Josh says he did not mean to be misleading, and I take him at his word, but it would be irresponsible for any scientist to leave it unedited for public consumption.

David

Ok Nightrainfalls you win. You're a big man and a major success. Congratulations. I will make sure to run all my posts by you beforehand, so you can fact check it. Hopefully that can satiate your massive insecurities.

Maybe after this, we could go out back and compare penis size? Or run a 100 yard dash? How about a spelling bee? Im SURE you would beat me in that. Or maybe we could go to an elementary school and you could tell all the kids how awful their artwork is?

What is interesting is scientists are now finding out that snakes have problem solving abilities that they once were thought of not capable of doing.

Im curious to what kind of social bonding garter snakes have. We know they are the one if the more social species of snakes.


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Jeez... Enough with the [ego] measuring contest..... You can both use big long words and are equally intelligent and know all about snakes.... Can we please get back to the interesting discussion of the op? Thanks :)

Oops... Double post my bad

I have been on topic the entire time until nightrain wanted to have an intensive discussion about proper usage of the word vestigial.

Guys seriously let's just get back to the discussion. We all bring something to the table here with our different experiences.


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Nightrain has brought nothing but discussion stifling off-topic criticism to this debate. Is no one else on here seriously seeing this?

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Nightrain has brought nothing but discussion stifling off-topic criticism to this debate. Is no one else on here seriously seeing this?

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actually, I found Nightrain's first post, criticism aside, quite informative. I rather enjoy learning about new things as there is always something new to learn. While not one has ever tried to bite me, I have seen a difference to where a couple of my animals are a little skittish versus the ones that are complacent if I go to handle them.

History and science are two of my favorite subjects, and for the most part I rather enjoy the discussions of this topics subject. While I agree that they don't feel emotions as we do, I do believe snakes and even reptiles in general are a lot smarter then some give them credit for.

That is not how we do it in the scientific community, and should not be how we do it on this forum. If he stood up at a talk and spoke the way he did to me in this forum, people would be absolutely astonished. I am most definitely done with this thread.

Well, let me start off with a disclaimer. I am NOT a scientist. And I am NOT a herpetologist either. On top of that, I am a newbie when it comes to snakes.

However, I think ball pythons do have some sense of preferences or some trust factor.

When I got my 9 month old BP a few weeks back, he was not shy with me at all. He appeared to be well raised. He seemed to trust me and was not even head-shy right from the beginning. He was a little bit skittish though, he still is skittish sometimes. But he has never ever hissed at me or struck at me. And I handle him almost every day.

However when my roommates approached him (without even touching him) he curled up into a ball, and would not uncurl until they went away. Lately, he appears to "trust" them too. He no longer balls up and is not shy of my roommates (who are not as confident about even touching him)

As I said earlier, I am not a scientific scholar and I don't know how to interpret his behavior. But like someone said earlier, they do have individual personality.

Having said that, we all agree that they are no dogs or cats as far as cognitive abilities are concerned.

First off, in regards to the explosion of cattiness over scientific lingo: Yes, scientists should be correct when talking to the general public, but it needs to be done in such a way that, as an earlier comment mentioned, you don't feel like you need to have a Ph.D. to understand it.

The bottom line is that correcting a misused word is helpful, doing it in such a way that the only thing people actually hear are your insults is not. If the goal really is scientific communication and not an academic pissing contest, you need to aim toward the first and not the second.

As far as the difficulty of scientific dissertations/defenses are concerned: it depends on your committee. During my defense I used the phrase "a little something something" and the word "yo" no less than five times, and got an unconditional pass. For my undergraduate thesis, I formally credited a service dog as part of the research team, and brought nutter butters as snacks for my committee (one of whom had a deadly peanut allergy that I was unaware of). Once again, I got an unconditional pass. In my experience the success of a defense hinges on the solidity of the research, not an accidental misuse of a word... Or nearly sending a committee member to the hospital.

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Originally Posted by Billy29

What is interesting is scientists are now finding out that snakes have problem solving abilities that they once were thought of not capable of doing.

Im curious to what kind of social bonding garter snakes have. We know they are the one if the more social species of snakes.


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I LOVE talking about garter snakes (if you haven't noticed). I believe they have several levels of communication that we cannot measure by simple observation. For example, there was a very long thread on the garter forum I'm on about coinciding sheds (which are regulated by hormones among other things). Many keepers had noticed that multiple snakes in their collection would shed at the same time, even if they were at different stages of growth, or that multiple snakes would shed 'out of cycle' when one had an 'emergency shed' because of an injury or health problem. In my collection, I've noticed that my males almost always shed within a week or two of an adult female. When there's no female around, the immature and smaller males will almost always shed right after my largest male, but the larger one does not seem to shed in response to the smaller ones shedding.
Now, this isn't behavior per se, but I think it does point to complex hormonal communication between animals. In a species like garters that dens communally, I imagine a similar mechanism plays a role in waking everyone up around the same time (so breeding is actually competitive and not just a crapshoot of who happens to wake up earliest).

People with larger communal setups than what I keep have noticed that there seems to be a rudimentary hierarchy revolving around food, with the bolder snakes eating first and the shyer snakes coming out afterwards. I don't think this is a simple case of one snake scaring the others away until they are done eating, rather the shyer snakes taking social cues from the bolder ones about whether a situation is safe or not.

I don't know why more formal research hasn't been done on garters. Besides being the only reptile with the ability to survive after 75% of it's tissue has frozen solid (there was actually a study on that) they are just really fascinating in general.

I think this is a really interesting question because my little guy has surprised me at every turn with his attitude and personality. I got him expecting what everyone says to expect, an animal that would only tolerate handling and would likely be skittish and/or nippy at times. It has been nearly a year and he remains exceedingly tolerant, friendly, and curious. He has made a habit of stretching out towards my nose when we are sitting together, he likes to rest his chin on me and for all the world seems to be looking for attention at times. I will make a full disclaimer here and state that I realize that it is easy to read too much into their behavior, but there have been a few instances in particular where he really does seem to be eager for interaction. He has not balled, hissed or stuck once since I got him. He doesn't shy away when I gently stroke his chin, or even when I give him a light kiss on his nose. I don't think I could say he is feeling affection towards me when he does this, but he is absolutely not fearful. Somehow he seems to recognize that I mean him no harm and definitely responds differently to people he is used to than he does to newcomers.

What really has led me to question the general perception of snakes and the bonds they form, and just their overall intelligence, is the rare instances in which I have to do something that I know he dislikes due to an issue that may be problematic if left unaddressed. One case of this was just the other night when I noticed he had a dent in his eye cap. His humidity is spot on, I am obsessive about it, so I think he may have just rested against something for too long. Either way he was preparing to go into a shed cycle. I was doing research into the issue and whether there was anything I needed to do about it. The number one recommendation was to spray the area with water, or to soak. I have heard people voice concerns about soaking snakes, specifically that it may be detrimental to good shedding, so I didn't want to chance that. The problem is he HATES spray bottles, they are the one thing that will send him into a panic. I have spent the last ten months carefully demonstrating to him that he can trust me, I couldn't imagine spraying him in the face intentionally when even spraying his substrate seems to terrify him. After reading that dents can cause them to retain the eye cap during shed I knew I had to do something, so I resolved that his health had to be placed above his views of me. Still, I was really upset about it because it felt like a betrayal and I was sure he would never really trust me again. Shockingly he didn't even flinch, his eye returned to normal within about 2 minutes and he seemed to immediately perk up and spent about the next half hour intent on being right in my face. I still don't know quite what to make of this, because it sure looked like he knew I was trying to help him and chose to cooperate. Maybe he just trusts me enough to know he is safe when I am holding him, but that seems like a stretch.

Another similar occasion, and one that utterly rules out the trust theory, occurred about two weeks after he came home. He had a badly retained shed (the first and only one since, thank goodness) and had about 2/3 of his skin from just below his neck all the way down his tail left on. I soaked him and gently held him while working at any loose areas until he was fully shed. This took about 45 minutes and the whole time he sat perfectly calm with his head resting on my collar bone. Again, this defies any perception I have of how a snake would behave when being "restrained" by a large animal that they should instinctually view as a predator. I would think he would be frantically trying to get away, especially given that I was messing with him by trying to help the skin to come off. He hadn't known me long enough to have built up that kind of trust yet. The only explanation I can find is that he realized what I was trying to do and knew he could use the help. It was like he supressed instinct for the greater goal, as crazy as I am sure that sounds.

He does all kinds of smaller things like this. I notice on a regular basis that when I put him back after handling at night he will sit with his nose poking out of the hide. This isn't unusual, but it does seem unusual that he will wait like this until we come in to go to bed, at which point he calmly curls up in his hide. I go in and out of that room between handling and bedtime, so it isn't just the fact that we have come into the room. It is almost like he waits to be taken back out and when we come in and get in bed he knows that isn't happening. I can walk up to the tank to check on him and he will extend slightly farther out, if I leave again he just keeps waiting. We even have a ritual after feeding since he always seems to get at least some annoying eco-earth in his mouth. I will put my finger beside him and he will rub his mouth on it. This could also be instinct to some extent, but I would expect a more negative response to my hand in his tank when he has just eaten. Another disclaimer, I know there is some risk that I could be bit doing this, I prefer to try to assist him if possible and am not concerned about a bite. Even if it happened, it would be a minor injury at best. I don't think swallowing it would hurt him, or that he needs my help necessarily, but he seems bothered by it so I like to at least try to help him out. That being said, I do believe he knows who I am and understands that I am not a threat. I definitely believe they are much smarter than they are given credit for. Would I say he loves me, no. However, it seems clear that he feels safe with me and I am honored that he has given me as much of his trust as he has. :)

Interesting. Literally the first thing I did when I adopted my BP that was 'too aggressive' to sell at the pet store was remove a retained shed, and got the same sort of nonchalant attitude.

IMO with any wild animal, whether or not they were actually born in the wild, the most important thing is to focus on avoiding negative associations first then provide neutral-to-positive ones. I've done a bit of possum rescue/rehab in the past, and I can typically go handle a wild adult, even if it's injured, without much fuss at all. Those animals certainly didn't trust me at first, but if you avoid any stimuli that will send them into a panic they are pretty easy to work with. The list of triggers is insane for possums; until they know you, you've got to avoid any percussive sound down to making the "sss" noise when talking, can't cast any sort of shadow on them, and you have to hold them by letting them hold you because they will freak out if you touch their sides, belly, or back. I think a similar set of rules could apply to a snake; avoid sensory triggers and they will probably act pretty calm around you regardless of whether or not they know you well.

As far as them associating negative experiences with you, I think it's important to always end any sort of interaction on a neutral note. If the snake presents any undesirable behavior like biting, going into a defensive ball, or trying to bolt and get away, putting them back in their enclosure just enforces that that behavior relieves a negative stimulus. If you wait until they are calm, they don't associate acting pissy with getting their way. This is kind of a play on the positive reinforcement training we use on mammals. The difference being that, other than food, there is nothing we can do that is going to provide a strong positive experience for the snake, so we have to shoot for calm or neutral when it's not feeding day. At worst handling is stressful, and at best I think it can allow a curious snake to carry out 'seeking' behavior, but I'd call that a pretty weak positive.

Ugh, see, that's the reason I hate eco-earth for anything other than a frog. It just sticks to absolutely everything! :cool:

That is fascinating with the possums and having to avoid sss sounds. Seems like all animals have remarkably unique and diverse things that set them off. I have instinctively avoided shadows falling over Shesha just because I guess it seemed to me from the start that it would make him feel threatened. I think you are right about the avoidance of negative experiencing being the goal, which is why I was so devasted to read that I would have to practically "attack" him to fix his eye. At least, I figured if I were in his shoes I would feel attacked. I was so relieved when he tolerated it, and even seemed to feel better afterward, that I thanked him out loud for not hating me about ten times over the course of the rest of handling time lol.

What do you think about the advice that snakes can tell if you are uncomfortable around them or nervous about handling and will be more defensive as a result. I mean, I go out of my way to never handle him when I am overly stressed out or angry, anything he could pick up on as negative. I also feel that when I am calm and happy he seems to pick up on that and is calmer as a result. I have seen lots of BHB videos where the guys who were nervous about messing with a certain snake would get bit, but the guy who was confident about it could walk right up and pick them up no problem. There sure seems to be something to it, but it makes you wonder how they can sense that? Perhaps they are detecting muscle tone or heart rhythms. It has just always amazed me that they can read people so well.

I agree on the Eco-Earth. Living in AZ we are constantly battling humidity issues, so I needed the boost from it badly enough that I was willing to tolerate the mess. I still give him a paper plate turned upside down to swallow the rat on, problem is he isn't a tiny hatchling anymore and can't seem to keep his meal on the plate these days. :P I never mind helping him though, and being gummed by a ball python is probably the cutest/coolest feeling ever. I do wish I could just put him in a feeding tub and be done with the substrate problem, but I think the risks outweigh the benefits there. Even beyond the added stress for him I worry that it could throw him into refusals since it is not what he is used to and there is nothing nicer than a snake taking regular meals.

EDIT: I had to add that there are some odd positive reinforcements I have found for Shesha with handling. For instance, he loves to watch the goldfish in the fish tank. At Christmas he was fascinated by the lights on the tree, or at least that seemed to be what he was fixated on. I started noticing him leaning for it on the way back to his tank at night, so we started making a pit stop after handling so he could nose about and investigate the lights and ornaments. There are a few things at least that he seems to really enjoy when he is out for a slither.

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http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/e...ps36d3168d.jpg

lol My profile name is actually from Didelphis virginiana, the scientific name for possums.

I think there are probably several things that change when you're feeling strong emotions that the snake would pick up on. They can probably detect some sort of chemical change from that in addition to the heart rate and muscle movement like you mentioned. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think people getting tagged from being nervous when they're about to handle a snake is caused by two potential misinterpretations. When someone is nervous they'll tend to move normally then just freeze when they're right near the snake; you know what else is about 98.7 degrees F and instinctively freezes when it senses a snake? Rats and mice. I think that 'freeze' could also be interpreted as a danger because it could mimic the freeze many predators do just before they commit to an attack. Again, that is just pure speculation on my part and I have absolutely no hard evidence to back it up :P

EDIT: I didn't see your edit before I wrote that lol. I've never thought of things like that being positive reinforcement. I think you can make a good case for those things allowing the snake to feel positive through seeking behaviors, especially the fish. Usually when people talk about positive experiences for snakes it's something the snake would have no reason to enjoy, like being forced to soak or taken on walks in the bright sun.

That is a really interesting theory about predators and prey both doing the freezing thing. I suppose most other animals don't just calmly scoop them up do they. :P I always attributed it to the back and forth motions you see people making as they try to reach for them, but get freaked out and pull away. I mean that would annoy me too, it must seem like deliberate antagonizing from their side of things. You also see things like cats do that reaching and backing off thing. All they see is something repeatedly coming for them, it is no wonder they get defensive, they must have no idea what the person intends to do.

I don't really have any evidence for the heartrate or muscle theory, just seems to make sense I guess. I know they are great at detecting such things. I can't remember what species it was in reference to (Burmese specifically if I remember correctly) but I know some pythons have been found to monitor their preys heartbeat and constrict for a certain amount of time after it stops in order to ensure that it is dead, so they must be attentive to it. Not sure if ball pythons and other constrictors do the same thing. One of the coolest handling nights with Shesha consisted of him lying on my chest and he happened to be centered right over my heart. I could distinctly feel my heartbeat but it didn't feel like my heart was racing, it was a very odd sensation. I finally realized is was my heartbeat resonating through him and amplifying it. You could watch him and see him twitch slightly each time it beat. It was just really neat for some reason though, hard to explain.

I am extremely careful to not inflict things on him just because they would be fun for me. Given their normal behavior a bath does not seem likely to be something enjoyable for them, more like unnatural which is rarely a good thing. Same goes for sunny walks, they are crepuscular for heaven's sake, why would they want to sit around in the sun? I am really amazed by the things people think are a good idea sometimes. I just try to follow his cues and go by that. If he is interested in something we make a point to give him frequent access to it. If something makes him nervous we avoid it. I did once step outside with him on a particularly pleasant day, no walks just standing in the driveway. He seemed interested for a minute but he suddenly froze and tensed, so we went right back in and we haven't been back out since. His message was clear enough for me, bright open spaces = danger. He does enjoy stepping outside at night however, the other day after a rainstorm we went out to greet my husband as he arrived home and he spent a couple minutes periscoping and looking straight at the moon. Who knows if he could see it, but something caught his attention.

I love those two pictures with the christmas tree because at least to me he looks absolutely delighted. I can see that childlike wonder in them. It may just be me reading too much into it, but it always makes me happy looking at them. It is almost like they captured that more complex side of snakes that so few take the time to see. There is more to them than hunt and hide. I do watch his cues very closely, sometimes it is something as simple as a movement in the room that catches him off guard and makes him tense. Usually just taking him into the hall for a moment, or into the bedroom (his territory) soothes him and he is fine and relaxed after a short time out. :gj:

Yeah, I imagine any combination of freezing or overly jerky movements could potentially make them think of either food or a predator.

I don't think any formal study was ever done on it, but there was a big news article a couple years back about a boa constrictor that was a seizure service animal. The owner would wear him around and carry a portable kennel with him, and the snake would apparently slightly constrict when he was about to have a seizure, and give him just enough warning to plop the snake in the kennel and get into a safe position. I'd love to know what exactly it was picking up on.

Those Christmas pics are cute. I think everyone has to have a special photo of their snakes that's their favorite. Mine is one of my garters periscoping and looking directly at the camera; it makes him look really contemplative unless you know that he's completely blind and had been doing that in the pitch dark at 4am right before I snapped the picture lol.

That is so cool, I have never heard of a service snake. I have actually been joking recently that Shesha should be certified as a service snake, just due to what he does for my state of mind and clarity. I mean, there is more truth to it than people realize but I had no idea that had ever been done. It definitely would be fascinating to see some research done on how that was possible, maybe it was slight changes in muscle tension or vibration of some kind. They are highly adapted to do what they do after all. Think of people who lose a sense like hearing or sight and wind up with extremely heightened senses in other areas. Imagine having to sense so much of your world by physical contact and it is easy to imagine that they would be experts in detecting things we could never imagine.

I have a ton of pictures of him that I love, but then there are those select few that I feel give others a glimpse of what I see in him. In some he just looks like another snake, but there are definitely few that I think show how special he is. That is hilarious that your garter looks so alert despite being blind. Maybe he was perceiving something, just not anything visual. Plus, periscoping is about the cutest thing they do. I have yet to catch Shesha doing it, usually is it just excessively close shots of his heat pits as he tries to slither onto the camera. For some reason to him picture time just means he gets a fun new ledge to explore. I have more shots of his nose and the belly than I would like to admit. I always spend too long trying to get the perfect shot and up he goes.

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Just another couple tree shots I got, both are cute but the mouse one really cracked me up, just the irony I guess.

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Originally Posted by kiiarah

I think this is a really interesting question because my little guy has surprised me at every turn with his attitude and personality. I got him expecting what everyone says to expect, an animal that would only tolerate handling and would likely be skittish and/or nippy at times. It has been nearly a year and he remains exceedingly tolerant, friendly, and curious. He has made a habit of stretching out towards my nose when we are sitting together, he likes to rest his chin on me and for all the world seems to be looking for attention at times. I will make a full disclaimer here and state that I realize that it is easy to read too much into their behavior, but there have been a few instances in particular where he really does seem to be eager for interaction.

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My snake will do that too; when I hold him in front of my face he'll stretch forward and sometimes touch my nose with his tongue.

There is something going on that might be less than what we call emotion or affection, but is certainly more than mere instinct.

Also, agree with DVirginiana about giving the snake positive or neutral reinforcement. When I have him out and it's obvious he's had enough handling, instead of tossing him back in the cage I hold him in front of the open door and let him 'decide' when he's ready to go back in. Sometimes he'll go up on top of the cage and I'll let him stay up there for a while to check things out.
He's never gone from the top back into the cage on his own, but I'm hoping he'll do that some day.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2ah9k45.jpg

At a nursing home I used to volunteer at they had this guy who had all sorts of exotics including a couple medium sized snakes that he would bring by, and that was the most alert I've ever seen some of the residents. You'd think people who had never held a snake before and grew up in a time when it was really not normal to keep snakes as pets would be frightened, but most of them wanted to hold the snakes and iguana and just really perked up. I think part of that is due to the snake not really needing anything from you; with a dog and most cats you feel pressured to interact in an appropriate way, but with a snake you can just exist alongside them without any of that, and for someone who has lost most of their ability to communicate I can see that being really soothing.

Speaking of them sensing things we can't really imagine, that makes me think of an article from the neuroscientist David Eagleman about the 'Umwelt'. It's a German term that basically means the entirety of a being's experience. The article talked about how the human mind can't comprehend another species' umwelt because we have either lost or never attained regions of the brain that are integral to their experience of the world. I think it applies more and more the further removed an animal is from humans in terms of sensory perception. Really interesting read though.

lol, I like the 'Jurassic Snake' picture.

Interesting topic indeed.
I believe as well that they can feel some sense of bond or passion to their owners, but maybe that's dependent of the snake. My first rescue, Ryuu, was in a terrible home. She is(I haven't had her for very long so she still is) a little but over three years old. Her previous owners said she escaped her enclosure- from the pic looked like a storage bin with just some driftwood- didn't see anything that contained water, and I was told that she was missing for bout two weeks and they found her under their drier. PLUS they don't even remember the last time she was feed! When I got her, she had(still has but is healing nicely) a like dent in her hear, and all down her neck especially, and some parts on her back was all scratched up and missing some scales(although, i think i am making this seem worse than she was. It was just a patch on her neck and a few scales here and there on her back that were missing). And she was also so cold, so i held her on the way home to give her warmth. So, she gets in her new enclosure, eats immediately(she was just about a quarter and a half round). Anyway, it's been bout a month now, and I believe she shows more affection than my other BP, Whenever i have her out, she doesn't grip too hard on my neck(which i know not all do this. I've held a friends and he didn't ever grip around my neck, but my other bp sometimes grips too hard) and as i have been told, she plays when she is with me. My mother, and other people have held her before, and she doesn't do much, or tries to slither away(i know they know people by scent and smell). My mother hands her over to me and immediately, Ryuu starts crawling up my face and like its kind of like a peck, sometimes she'll rub her head on mine, and she loves to slither up onto my head or hat, only a few times after quite a while holding her, she starts to "go exploring" is what I call it.
As I typed this, i guess it's hard to explain why I feel some are capable of having some form of bonds or passion.. I guess it's rather not easy to explain, it's just i get this intuition that she likes me more than my other BP- which likes to roam if i have him out of his cage.