Snake cognitive ability and affection.

[JoshSloane]

Nightrain has brought nothing but discussion stifling off-topic criticism to this debate. Is no one else on here seriously seeing this?

[ajmreptiles]

Nightrain has brought nothing but discussion stifling off-topic criticism to this debate. Is no one else on here seriously seeing this?

actually, I found Nightrain's first post, criticism aside, quite informative. I rather enjoy learning about new things as there is always something new to learn. While not one has ever tried to bite me, I have seen a difference to where a couple of my animals are a little skittish versus the ones that are complacent if I go to handle them.

History and science are two of my favorite subjects, and for the most part I rather enjoy the discussions of this topics subject. While I agree that they don't feel emotions as we do, I do believe snakes and even reptiles in general are a lot smarter then some give them credit for.

[JoshSloane]

That is not how we do it in the scientific community, and should not be how we do it on this forum. If he stood up at a talk and spoke the way he did to me in this forum, people would be absolutely astonished. I am most definitely done with this thread.

[whovian]

Well, let me start off with a disclaimer. I am NOT a scientist. And I am NOT a herpetologist either. On top of that, I am a newbie when it comes to snakes.

However, I think ball pythons do have some sense of preferences or some trust factor.

When I got my 9 month old BP a few weeks back, he was not shy with me at all. He appeared to be well raised. He seemed to trust me and was not even head-shy right from the beginning. He was a little bit skittish though, he still is skittish sometimes. But he has never ever hissed at me or struck at me. And I handle him almost every day.

However when my roommates approached him (without even touching him) he curled up into a ball, and would not uncurl until they went away. Lately, he appears to "trust" them too. He no longer balls up and is not shy of my roommates (who are not as confident about even touching him)

As I said earlier, I am not a scientific scholar and I don't know how to interpret his behavior. But like someone said earlier, they do have individual personality.

Having said that, we all agree that they are no dogs or cats as far as cognitive abilities are concerned.

[DVirginiana]

First off, in regards to the explosion of cattiness over scientific lingo: Yes, scientists should be correct when talking to the general public, but it needs to be done in such a way that, as an earlier comment mentioned, you don't feel like you need to have a Ph.D. to understand it.

The bottom line is that correcting a misused word is helpful, doing it in such a way that the only thing people actually hear are your insults is not. If the goal really is scientific communication and not an academic pissing contest, you need to aim toward the first and not the second.

As far as the difficulty of scientific dissertations/defenses are concerned: it depends on your committee. During my defense I used the phrase "a little something something" and the word "yo" no less than five times, and got an unconditional pass. For my undergraduate thesis, I formally credited a service dog as part of the research team, and brought nutter butters as snacks for my committee (one of whom had a deadly peanut allergy that I was unaware of). Once again, I got an unconditional pass. In my experience the success of a defense hinges on the solidity of the research, not an accidental misuse of a word... Or nearly sending a committee member to the hospital.

What is interesting is scientists are now finding out that snakes have problem solving abilities that they once were thought of not capable of doing.

Im curious to what kind of social bonding garter snakes have. We know they are the one if the more social species of snakes.


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I LOVE talking about garter snakes (if you haven't noticed). I believe they have several levels of communication that we cannot measure by simple observation. For example, there was a very long thread on the garter forum I'm on about coinciding sheds (which are regulated by hormones among other things). Many keepers had noticed that multiple snakes in their collection would shed at the same time, even if they were at different stages of growth, or that multiple snakes would shed 'out of cycle' when one had an 'emergency shed' because of an injury or health problem. In my collection, I've noticed that my males almost always shed within a week or two of an adult female. When there's no female around, the immature and smaller males will almost always shed right after my largest male, but the larger one does not seem to shed in response to the smaller ones shedding.
Now, this isn't behavior per se, but I think it does point to complex hormonal communication between animals. In a species like garters that dens communally, I imagine a similar mechanism plays a role in waking everyone up around the same time (so breeding is actually competitive and not just a crapshoot of who happens to wake up earliest).

People with larger communal setups than what I keep have noticed that there seems to be a rudimentary hierarchy revolving around food, with the bolder snakes eating first and the shyer snakes coming out afterwards. I don't think this is a simple case of one snake scaring the others away until they are done eating, rather the shyer snakes taking social cues from the bolder ones about whether a situation is safe or not.

I don't know why more formal research hasn't been done on garters. Besides being the only reptile with the ability to survive after 75% of it's tissue has frozen solid (there was actually a study on that) they are just really fascinating in general.

[kiiarah]

I think this is a really interesting question because my little guy has surprised me at every turn with his attitude and personality. I got him expecting what everyone says to expect, an animal that would only tolerate handling and would likely be skittish and/or nippy at times. It has been nearly a year and he remains exceedingly tolerant, friendly, and curious. He has made a habit of stretching out towards my nose when we are sitting together, he likes to rest his chin on me and for all the world seems to be looking for attention at times. I will make a full disclaimer here and state that I realize that it is easy to read too much into their behavior, but there have been a few instances in particular where he really does seem to be eager for interaction. He has not balled, hissed or stuck once since I got him. He doesn't shy away when I gently stroke his chin, or even when I give him a light kiss on his nose. I don't think I could say he is feeling affection towards me when he does this, but he is absolutely not fearful. Somehow he seems to recognize that I mean him no harm and definitely responds differently to people he is used to than he does to newcomers.

What really has led me to question the general perception of snakes and the bonds they form, and just their overall intelligence, is the rare instances in which I have to do something that I know he dislikes due to an issue that may be problematic if left unaddressed. One case of this was just the other night when I noticed he had a dent in his eye cap. His humidity is spot on, I am obsessive about it, so I think he may have just rested against something for too long. Either way he was preparing to go into a shed cycle. I was doing research into the issue and whether there was anything I needed to do about it. The number one recommendation was to spray the area with water, or to soak. I have heard people voice concerns about soaking snakes, specifically that it may be detrimental to good shedding, so I didn't want to chance that. The problem is he HATES spray bottles, they are the one thing that will send him into a panic. I have spent the last ten months carefully demonstrating to him that he can trust me, I couldn't imagine spraying him in the face intentionally when even spraying his substrate seems to terrify him. After reading that dents can cause them to retain the eye cap during shed I knew I had to do something, so I resolved that his health had to be placed above his views of me. Still, I was really upset about it because it felt like a betrayal and I was sure he would never really trust me again. Shockingly he didn't even flinch, his eye returned to normal within about 2 minutes and he seemed to immediately perk up and spent about the next half hour intent on being right in my face. I still don't know quite what to make of this, because it sure looked like he knew I was trying to help him and chose to cooperate. Maybe he just trusts me enough to know he is safe when I am holding him, but that seems like a stretch.

Another similar occasion, and one that utterly rules out the trust theory, occurred about two weeks after he came home. He had a badly retained shed (the first and only one since, thank goodness) and had about 2/3 of his skin from just below his neck all the way down his tail left on. I soaked him and gently held him while working at any loose areas until he was fully shed. This took about 45 minutes and the whole time he sat perfectly calm with his head resting on my collar bone. Again, this defies any perception I have of how a snake would behave when being "restrained" by a large animal that they should instinctually view as a predator. I would think he would be frantically trying to get away, especially given that I was messing with him by trying to help the skin to come off. He hadn't known me long enough to have built up that kind of trust yet. The only explanation I can find is that he realized what I was trying to do and knew he could use the help. It was like he supressed instinct for the greater goal, as crazy as I am sure that sounds.

He does all kinds of smaller things like this. I notice on a regular basis that when I put him back after handling at night he will sit with his nose poking out of the hide. This isn't unusual, but it does seem unusual that he will wait like this until we come in to go to bed, at which point he calmly curls up in his hide. I go in and out of that room between handling and bedtime, so it isn't just the fact that we have come into the room. It is almost like he waits to be taken back out and when we come in and get in bed he knows that isn't happening. I can walk up to the tank to check on him and he will extend slightly farther out, if I leave again he just keeps waiting. We even have a ritual after feeding since he always seems to get at least some annoying eco-earth in his mouth. I will put my finger beside him and he will rub his mouth on it. This could also be instinct to some extent, but I would expect a more negative response to my hand in his tank when he has just eaten. Another disclaimer, I know there is some risk that I could be bit doing this, I prefer to try to assist him if possible and am not concerned about a bite. Even if it happened, it would be a minor injury at best. I don't think swallowing it would hurt him, or that he needs my help necessarily, but he seems bothered by it so I like to at least try to help him out. That being said, I do believe he knows who I am and understands that I am not a threat. I definitely believe they are much smarter than they are given credit for. Would I say he loves me, no. However, it seems clear that he feels safe with me and I am honored that he has given me as much of his trust as he has.

[DVirginiana]

Interesting. Literally the first thing I did when I adopted my BP that was 'too aggressive' to sell at the pet store was remove a retained shed, and got the same sort of nonchalant attitude.

IMO with any wild animal, whether or not they were actually born in the wild, the most important thing is to focus on avoiding negative associations first then provide neutral-to-positive ones. I've done a bit of possum rescue/rehab in the past, and I can typically go handle a wild adult, even if it's injured, without much fuss at all. Those animals certainly didn't trust me at first, but if you avoid any stimuli that will send them into a panic they are pretty easy to work with. The list of triggers is insane for possums; until they know you, you've got to avoid any percussive sound down to making the "sss" noise when talking, can't cast any sort of shadow on them, and you have to hold them by letting them hold you because they will freak out if you touch their sides, belly, or back. I think a similar set of rules could apply to a snake; avoid sensory triggers and they will probably act pretty calm around you regardless of whether or not they know you well.

As far as them associating negative experiences with you, I think it's important to always end any sort of interaction on a neutral note. If the snake presents any undesirable behavior like biting, going into a defensive ball, or trying to bolt and get away, putting them back in their enclosure just enforces that that behavior relieves a negative stimulus. If you wait until they are calm, they don't associate acting pissy with getting their way. This is kind of a play on the positive reinforcement training we use on mammals. The difference being that, other than food, there is nothing we can do that is going to provide a strong positive experience for the snake, so we have to shoot for calm or neutral when it's not feeding day. At worst handling is stressful, and at best I think it can allow a curious snake to carry out 'seeking' behavior, but I'd call that a pretty weak positive.

Ugh, see, that's the reason I hate eco-earth for anything other than a frog. It just sticks to absolutely everything!

[kiiarah]

That is fascinating with the possums and having to avoid sss sounds. Seems like all animals have remarkably unique and diverse things that set them off. I have instinctively avoided shadows falling over Shesha just because I guess it seemed to me from the start that it would make him feel threatened. I think you are right about the avoidance of negative experiencing being the goal, which is why I was so devasted to read that I would have to practically "attack" him to fix his eye. At least, I figured if I were in his shoes I would feel attacked. I was so relieved when he tolerated it, and even seemed to feel better afterward, that I thanked him out loud for not hating me about ten times over the course of the rest of handling time lol.

What do you think about the advice that snakes can tell if you are uncomfortable around them or nervous about handling and will be more defensive as a result. I mean, I go out of my way to never handle him when I am overly stressed out or angry, anything he could pick up on as negative. I also feel that when I am calm and happy he seems to pick up on that and is calmer as a result. I have seen lots of BHB videos where the guys who were nervous about messing with a certain snake would get bit, but the guy who was confident about it could walk right up and pick them up no problem. There sure seems to be something to it, but it makes you wonder how they can sense that? Perhaps they are detecting muscle tone or heart rhythms. It has just always amazed me that they can read people so well.

I agree on the Eco-Earth. Living in AZ we are constantly battling humidity issues, so I needed the boost from it badly enough that I was willing to tolerate the mess. I still give him a paper plate turned upside down to swallow the rat on, problem is he isn't a tiny hatchling anymore and can't seem to keep his meal on the plate these days. I never mind helping him though, and being gummed by a ball python is probably the cutest/coolest feeling ever. I do wish I could just put him in a feeding tub and be done with the substrate problem, but I think the risks outweigh the benefits there. Even beyond the added stress for him I worry that it could throw him into refusals since it is not what he is used to and there is nothing nicer than a snake taking regular meals.

EDIT: I had to add that there are some odd positive reinforcements I have found for Shesha with handling. For instance, he loves to watch the goldfish in the fish tank. At Christmas he was fascinated by the lights on the tree, or at least that seemed to be what he was fixated on. I started noticing him leaning for it on the way back to his tank at night, so we started making a pit stop after handling so he could nose about and investigate the lights and ornaments. There are a few things at least that he seems to really enjoy when he is out for a slither.

[DVirginiana]

lol My profile name is actually from Didelphis virginiana, the scientific name for possums.

I think there are probably several things that change when you're feeling strong emotions that the snake would pick up on. They can probably detect some sort of chemical change from that in addition to the heart rate and muscle movement like you mentioned. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think people getting tagged from being nervous when they're about to handle a snake is caused by two potential misinterpretations. When someone is nervous they'll tend to move normally then just freeze when they're right near the snake; you know what else is about 98.7 degrees F and instinctively freezes when it senses a snake? Rats and mice. I think that 'freeze' could also be interpreted as a danger because it could mimic the freeze many predators do just before they commit to an attack. Again, that is just pure speculation on my part and I have absolutely no hard evidence to back it up

EDIT: I didn't see your edit before I wrote that lol. I've never thought of things like that being positive reinforcement. I think you can make a good case for those things allowing the snake to feel positive through seeking behaviors, especially the fish. Usually when people talk about positive experiences for snakes it's something the snake would have no reason to enjoy, like being forced to soak or taken on walks in the bright sun.

[kiiarah]

That is a really interesting theory about predators and prey both doing the freezing thing. I suppose most other animals don't just calmly scoop them up do they. I always attributed it to the back and forth motions you see people making as they try to reach for them, but get freaked out and pull away. I mean that would annoy me too, it must seem like deliberate antagonizing from their side of things. You also see things like cats do that reaching and backing off thing. All they see is something repeatedly coming for them, it is no wonder they get defensive, they must have no idea what the person intends to do.

I don't really have any evidence for the heartrate or muscle theory, just seems to make sense I guess. I know they are great at detecting such things. I can't remember what species it was in reference to (Burmese specifically if I remember correctly) but I know some pythons have been found to monitor their preys heartbeat and constrict for a certain amount of time after it stops in order to ensure that it is dead, so they must be attentive to it. Not sure if ball pythons and other constrictors do the same thing. One of the coolest handling nights with Shesha consisted of him lying on my chest and he happened to be centered right over my heart. I could distinctly feel my heartbeat but it didn't feel like my heart was racing, it was a very odd sensation. I finally realized is was my heartbeat resonating through him and amplifying it. You could watch him and see him twitch slightly each time it beat. It was just really neat for some reason though, hard to explain.

I am extremely careful to not inflict things on him just because they would be fun for me. Given their normal behavior a bath does not seem likely to be something enjoyable for them, more like unnatural which is rarely a good thing. Same goes for sunny walks, they are crepuscular for heaven's sake, why would they want to sit around in the sun? I am really amazed by the things people think are a good idea sometimes. I just try to follow his cues and go by that. If he is interested in something we make a point to give him frequent access to it. If something makes him nervous we avoid it. I did once step outside with him on a particularly pleasant day, no walks just standing in the driveway. He seemed interested for a minute but he suddenly froze and tensed, so we went right back in and we haven't been back out since. His message was clear enough for me, bright open spaces = danger. He does enjoy stepping outside at night however, the other day after a rainstorm we went out to greet my husband as he arrived home and he spent a couple minutes periscoping and looking straight at the moon. Who knows if he could see it, but something caught his attention.

I love those two pictures with the christmas tree because at least to me he looks absolutely delighted. I can see that childlike wonder in them. It may just be me reading too much into it, but it always makes me happy looking at them. It is almost like they captured that more complex side of snakes that so few take the time to see. There is more to them than hunt and hide. I do watch his cues very closely, sometimes it is something as simple as a movement in the room that catches him off guard and makes him tense. Usually just taking him into the hall for a moment, or into the bedroom (his territory) soothes him and he is fine and relaxed after a short time out.