Snake cognitive ability and affection.

[Artemisace]

They are definitely smarter than most people would admit. And with some I'd have to say more intelligent as well, the animals I have the most experience with are my retics and my anaconda. Maybe that higher "intelligence" can be attributed to at least some snakes showing what can be construed as "affection"

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[The Golem]

Snakes are brilliant - at being snakes. And they can definitely remember things that are relevant to them.

I have a terrarium on top of a desk. One time the snake went missing for weeks, and I finally found it on the floor of in my bedroom closet - inside a comic book box. The closet is consistently the darkest, quietest area of my apartment so it made sense he'd like being in it.

To get there, it had to:
climb down from the desk
travel along 2 walls of the living room - behind the tv stand, in front of bookcases, past balcony door, under part of sofa
go through a small opening in the wall for the radiator pipe
travel along 2 walls of the bedroom
into the closet and into a hiding spot.

That's quite a long and complicated route, there are obstructions along the way the snake had to get around, over, and through. But he really likes that dark and quiet closet. As a test, I allowed him to escape one night and kept watching, and he got back to the closet faster than I was expecting. Now, I can put him down pretty much anywhere in the apartment, leave the PVC cage door open, and he will find his way back there and get into the warm hide pretty quickly. And when I blocked access to the hole in the wall, he figured out an alternate route to the closet! So I bought a PVC cage and put it on the floor of the closet, as a 'second home' for him for when I'm cleaning the glass terrarium, or have people over and there's going to be a lot of noise/activity in the living room.
And it's a safety device because if he does manage to escape his terrarium or otherwise goes missing, odds are very good I'll find him in his second home.

[se7en]

interesting topic

i don't know if they do feelings, but all my BPs seem to have their own distinct personality, i can tell you that much

[nightrainfalls]

Hey Billy29, I'm a scientist as well, getting my PhD in Neurotoxicology currently, have my masters in molecular and biochemical environmental toxicology also. Glad to see other scientists on here. When thinking about this issue as a neuroscientist, I look at the vestigial structure of the reptilian brain and say that snakes are capable of only basic 'emotions' like, "Im hungry, cold, too hot, thirsty, scared, angy etc," as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala). Due to reptiles not having a concerted and organized distinct cerebral cortex, most would consider reptiles incapable of having intricate thought processes of love, affection, and complex memories. However, they do retain basic structures in the dorsal region of the brain in a very primordial fashion, which can hint at what were first evolutionary steps towards a cortex. Meaning, while we can't directly identify a brain region that we dogmatically think of being associated with higher mammals capable of complex emotions, it doesn't mean that certain neuronal structures aren't capable of creating behavior that is similar. With this in mind we can rationalize that a snake is definitely able to make associations with certain objects, whether human or inanimate. Basically 'human means food' and 'human not predator.'

What are they teaching Phd's these days? Certainly not the meaning of the word vestigial. Snake brains are in no way vestigial. Vestigial organs are organs reduced to being useless by evolution. For example the eyes in a blind salamander. The salamander no longer needs to see, since it lives in a dark cave, as a result the eyes are much reduced and no longer function as eyes. In contrast the snakes brain is a highly derived organ, with many specific and important functions. Furthermore the phrase "... as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala)." Suggests that reptiles somehow lost other portions of a brain they once had. This is simply not true. Snakes never had mammalian brains to begin with. Snake brains are not atrophied or degenerate. They have not lost functionality.

If we were engaging in comparative neuro-anatomy a few decades ago, we might refer to the snake brain as primitive or basal. Of course as the animal kingdom has been explored, it has been found that many animals with brains that are significantly different from humans are still capable of remarkably complex behaviors. Birds who's brains are look very similar to snake brains with swollen frontal cortexes, are capable of complex migrations, 3 dimensional navigation, developing family structure, building complex nests, parental care, learning, teaching, and planning out task in multiple steps. The do all of this without the sophisticated neo-cortex of mammals. Snakes birds, and mammals all have a forebrain, they all have a cerebellum, and they all have a medulla oblongota. See the image here http://www.daviddarling.info/images/reptilian_brain.jpg . We notice that the reptile brain has all the parts of a brain, but those parts are developed differently. The parts of the brain that are found in mammals all developed from or are expansions of parts of the reptilian brain.

If the kinds of behaviors we frequently identify as mammalian are observed in birds and fish, and even many reptiles then it suggests that like the brains of these animals, the basis of these behaviors is found deep in evolutionary history of vertebrates. In short, all of the behaviors and emotions we view as distinctly mammalian, likely come from a brain very similar to a snakes brain. The snake brain very likely contains the seeds of all of these behaviors and emotions. Snake brains are not degenerate, useless, brains that retain the bare minimum of parts of more advanced brains. They are actually highly evolved versions of the basal brains that would become avian and mammalian brains after many millions of years of evolution.

David

[JoshSloane]

[QUOTE=nightrainfalls;2360758]What are they teaching Phd's these days? Certainly not the meaning of the word vestigial. Snake brains are in no way vestigial. Vestigial organs are organs reduced to being useless by evolution. For example the eyes in a blind salamander. The salamander no longer needs to see, since it lives in a dark cave, as a result the eyes are much reduced and no longer function as eyes. In contrast the snakes brain is a highly derived organ, with many specific and important functions. Furthermore the phrase "... as those are the usual functionalities that we ascribe to the different parts of the brain that they do retain (medulla oblongata, amygdala)." Suggests that reptiles somehow lost other portions of a brain they once had. This is simply not true. Snakes never had mammalian brains to begin with. Snake brains are not atrophied or degenerate. They have not lost functionality.

If we were engaging in comparative neuro-anatomy a few decades ago, we might refer to the snake brain as primitive or basal. Of course as the animal kingdom has been explored, it has been found that many animals with brains that are significantly different from humans are still capable of remarkably complex behaviors. Birds who's brains are look very similar to snake brains with swollen frontal cortexes, are capable of complex migrations, 3 dimensional navigation, developing family structure, building complex nests, parental care, learning, teaching, and planning out task in multiple steps. The do all of this without the sophisticated neo-cortex of mammals. Snakes birds, and mammals all have a forebrain, they all have a cerebellum, and they all have a medulla oblongota. See the image here http://www.daviddarling.info/images/reptilian_brain.jpg . We notice that the reptile brain has all the parts of a brain, but those parts are developed differently. The parts of the brain that are found in mammals all developed from or are expansions of parts of the reptilian brain.

If the kinds of behaviors we frequently identify as mammalian are observed in birds and fish, and even many reptiles then it suggests that like the brains of these animals, the basis of these behaviors is found deep in evolutionary history of vertebrates. In short, all of the behaviors and emotions we view as distinctly mammalian, likely come from a brain very similar to a snakes brain. The snake brain very likely contains the seeds of all of these behaviors and emotions. Snake brains are not degenerate, useless, brains that retain the bare minimum of parts of more advanced brains. They are actually highly evolved versions of the basal brains that would become avian and mammalian brains after many millions of years of evolution.




You vastly missed the point I was trying to make, and the insults implied are not appreciated. If I had the time to sit here and hold your hand while trying to help you understand my passage, I would, but I can't.

[JoshSloane]

I whole heartedly apologize for my misuse of the word 'vestigial.' Not having participated in evolutionary biology courses for over a decade has obviously left me rusty. My time spent as a molecular biologist and biochemist at a medical school must have somehow dulled my understanding of this word. Hopefully you can find it in your vestigial heart to forgive me.

[Tsanford]

I feel like a PhD is required just to participate in this discussion..

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[200xth]

I feel like a PhD is required just to participate in this discussion..

Nah.

The best keepers I know are just the normal guys (and girls) who really like snakes.

[JoshSloane]

Nah.

The best keepers I know are just the normal guys (and girls) who really like snakes.

I agree. I wasn't trying to get too academic. Just thought it would be interesting to throw some science in. Although some on here think its more fun to take out a red pen and grade peoples responses.

[HVani]

I don't have a PhD in anything but here are my thoughts. They don't bond with each other then why would snakes bond with us? I don't see an evolutionary advantage to keeping a emotional bonding in an animal that does not bond with others of it's kind. They are a lot smarter than we give them credit but so are many fish.

Comparing reptiles to birds also seems very apples to oranges. Birds are warm blooded which to me, makes a big difference. With snakes being cold blooded I would think they would use their brain differently.