Same alleles, different names or not?

I've seen posts with "lesser, butter, same thing" and "banana, coral glow, same thing".

If they are the same, you should be able to mate one with the other and produce supers, no?

So if they produce a "butter lesser" or a "banana cg", they are distinctly different alleles, correct? Like a Lavender Albino and an Albino allele are different and one het for each will not produce an albino snake?

In the case of butter lesser and banana cg, those are not different alleles, they are the exact same. You can produce supers and when you breed the super, there is no distinguishing features between the babies to call one a name over another name.

Lavender albino and albino are not alleles, they sit on completely different loci. Toffee and candy are alleles to albino though. I do not know of any to lavender.

Wow, BP genetics are frustrating. Why even have two names for them?

How many loci are there?

Which alleles correspond with each other, as you said, Toffee, Candy and Albino would all reside at the same loci, so which are at what loci?

If you could post a link or two, that would be great. I haven't had much luck finding anything, much less correct information. In fact, I have only found one site that even mentioned incomplete vs codominance, and it didn't even deal with which morphs were incomplete vs codom, just a brief glossing over.

Thanks...

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Originally Posted by kaitala

Wow, BP genetics are frustrating. Why even have two names for them?

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Two or more people import the same morph and give names before they find out they are the same morph. Like in the case of the lessers, the original animal imported was actually a Platinum, which eventually made lessers.

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Originally Posted by kaitala

How many loci are there?

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Potentially Thousands

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Originally Posted by kaitala

Which alleles correspond with each other, as you said, Toffee, Candy and Albino would all reside at the same loci, so which are at what loci?

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In the hobby we call them complexes, http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

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Originally Posted by kaitala

If you could post a link or two, that would be great. I haven't had much luck finding anything, much less correct information. In fact, I have only found one site that even mentioned incomplete vs codominance, and it didn't even deal with which morphs were incomplete vs codom, just a brief glossing over.

Thanks...

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Scaleless in the only morph I can think of that can actually be called co-dom, however many inc-dom are called co-dom, as I'm sure you have seen already.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, still learning about the genetics involved, so my terminology might be wrong.

Butters and lessers are part of an allelic complex along with mojaves, bamboos, and het russos. When bred together any of these snakes produces a blue eyed leucistic animal (the super form of anything in this complex), however looking at each individual gene will show you that they are not all different names for the same gene. A mojo looks nothing like a het russo, and a lesser looks nothing like a bamboo. It's also worth mentioning that a white diamond BEL (the "super russo") looks way different than a super mojo, which looks different from the purer white BEL's. Lessers and butters look pretty similar, sure, and there are arguments either way on that topic, but that's a different debate. It's a weird jumble, and honestly The surest way to tell what's inside your BEL is to ask the breeder. I know there are other allelic combos, but the leucistic complex is the only one I've really looked into.

As for bananas, coral glows, and white smokes; many people argue that they are the same thing though I don't think it has been proven either way.

Awesome, now we're getting into the juicy meat of brain food I love!

thanks for the link, ill do some reading before i pester you all again. ..

I lied. :) i read some but am going to ask now.

So if I have a Cinnamon het albino, and breed to a het toffee or candy, would I get a visual manifestation of the albino complex?

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Originally Posted by Daigga

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, still learning about the genetics involved, so my terminology might be wrong.

Butters and lessers are part of an allelic complex along with mojaves, bamboos, and het russos. When bred together any of these snakes produces a blue eyed leucistic animal (the super form of anything in this complex), however looking at each individual gene will show you that they are not all different names for the same gene. A mojo looks nothing like a het russo, and a lesser looks nothing like a bamboo. It's also worth mentioning that a white diamond BEL (the "super russo") looks way different than a super mojo, which looks different from the purer white BEL's. Lessers and butters look pretty similar, sure, and there are arguments either way on that topic, but that's a different debate. It's a weird jumble, and honestly The surest way to tell what's inside your BEL is to ask the breeder. I know there are other allelic combos, but the leucistic complex is the only one I've really looked into.

As for bananas, coral glows, and white smokes; many people argue that they are the same thing though I don't think it has been proven either way.

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I guess I wasn't very clear with that. You are correct, most of the genes listed are actually alleles. Butter and Lesser are two names for the same and there is debate whether mystic and phantom are the same, but I have not dug too far into that debate, so I don't really know. However the rest are obviously different from each other, but breeding has shown them to sit on the same locus. Some of the combos don't even make BEL at all, special mojave makes a crystal.

Yellow Belly and Orange Belly are also more than likely the same, but with information with the graphite project still up in the air (which the orange bellies were used), we can't say for 100% they are same

As for banana cg (whitesmoke is another name for cg) well they are identical looking morphs that grow black spots as they age, have the same breeding anomaly that doesn't even have a name because it has never been seen in the animal kingdom that only effects the males, and produce identical looking supers. I think the chances of them being on different loci is as close to zero as you can get.

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Originally Posted by kaitala

I lied. :) i read some but am going to ask now.

So if I have a Cinnamon het albino, and breed to a het toffee or candy, would I get a visual manifestation of the albino complex?

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You have a chance to, If it was het toffee, you would have a 1/8 chance of getting a cinny toffino and a 1/8 chance at a toffino (or candino if it was het candy instead)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

As for banana cg (whitesmoke is another name for cg) well they are identical looking morphs that grow black spots as they age, have the same breeding anomaly that doesn't even have a name because it has never been seen in the animal kingdom that only effects the males, and produce identical looking supers. I think the chances of them being on different loci is as close to zero as you can get.

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I have no idea why you keep saying this.

Please read up on all of the different anomalies that "don't" happen in the animal kingdom.

The Werren Papers: The Coevolution of Autosomal and Cytoplasmic Sex Ratio Factors-PDF

Also you can read about the Nile Tilapia here.

Nile Tilapia sex ratio genetics

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I have no idea why you keep saying this.

Please read up on all of the different anomalies that "don't" happen in the animal kingdom.

The Werren Papers: The Coevolution of Autosomal and Cytoplasmic Sex Ratio Factors-PDF

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More links from you as always, that yet again do not explain what we are seeing,

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...38#post2307438

This is the thread your claims are completely skewing what is reported by the people breeding these animals. I don't have anything to look into, you need to first get your facts straight about what the gene is actually doing, then feel free to share your theories on the why.

Edit: Do you enjoy posting links that have nothing to do with what we are seeing with the banana gene? I asked this last time, but I'll ask again, do you even read the crap you post? or does anything that mentions sex chromosomes and sex ratios automatically become proof?

Nothing to do with it? lol You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Alright I'm done trying to teach you something. You go on living in your sheltered life of denial. Both links are long papers explaining EXACTLY what is going on. Other species of animals can and do do the same thing. Just look at the research paper on the Tilapia.
Funny how someone who thinks they know so much actually knows so little and refuses to research what they don't know.
Instead of learning something youd rather tell lies and try to put down the one trying to show you something. Oh well. I'll not respond to you any further as it does nothing apparently.

Have a nice life.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Nothing to do with it? lol You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Alright I'm done trying to teach you something. You go on living in your sheltered life of denial. Both links are long papers explaining EXACTLY what is going on. Other species of animals can and do do the same thing. Just look at the research paper on the Tilapia.
Funny how someone who thinks they know so much actually knows so little and refuses to research what they don't know.
Instead of learning something youd rather tell lies and try to put down the one trying to show you something. Oh well. I'll not respond to you any further as it does nothing apparently.

Have a nice life.

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problem with your metaphor is you can make him drink, which I did give you that chance in the last thread to show off your great knowledge. Lets look at that:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Ok.
Assume first female is an f1
Female Bananas produce male and female offspring in apparently normal ratios.
Male (f1) bananas produced from female(f1) bananas will produce mostly male Bananas. We can assume it to be 99% of the time. All normal or non Banana offspring are regular male/female ratios.

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This is not what is being reported by the people breeding these animals, Males produced from females will produce mostly female bananas and the non-banana offspring are not in regular ratios, they would be mostly male.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

If a female (f2) is produced from a "male maker" (f1) Banana, She will produce males and females at normal ratios, but any male (f2) Banana will now make females and males at in normal ratios.

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Female bananas produce normal ratio regardless of where they come from. There is no such thing as a male that produces normal ratios.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

So it is a sex linked recessive gene which does happen and is illustrated and explained in the previous links I posted for you.

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oh really?

So unless you want to say the people breeding these things are lying to us and the people personally around me breeding them are just lucky they are getting the same results, no Tess you have no idea how the gene works. When this crap first broke loose I talked to Brock in person and he gave me his explanation (which is nothing like you are reporting) and quite a bit of clutch data numbers to back it up. While he might of incorrectly called it sex linked (which we have argued over) that is simply an argument about a definition, like arguing over co-dom vs inc-dom, not the mechanics of the gene, which simply break down to:

Females produce normal ratios
Males banana from male bananas produce mostly male bananas and thus producing mostly female non bananas
Male banana from female banana produce mostly female bananas thus producing mostly male non bananas.

The total clutch sex ratio are not skewed in any clutch, but one sex will tend to be the morph while the other will tend not to be if the gene is coming from the male.

Not that isn't the 5th or so time I have presented this information to you, but you still seem to be stuck on that generational explanation which as I have pointed out multiple times, doesn't even follow the mechanics correctly. Forget me, talk to kevin, talk to brock, talk to mike, talk to anyone breeding these things and get your facts straight and stop spewing this crap you have been for years now.

Back to allele complexes, thanks for that. I'll look into that further.

Im trying to work with what i have and add compatible genes that produce visuals I'd be passionate about.

I would love to add something from the albino complex. probably just an albino male to go with the het females and work with that.

Thanks again for all this. :)

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Female bananas produce normal ratio regardless of where they come from. There is no such thing as a male that produces normal ratios.

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Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

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first time I have heard of this, very interesting. Wish there was a way to follow up on it. I mean anyone can say it was dumb luck, but if there was really a skewed ratio, it would be valuable information to the puzzle.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

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I have worked with Z chromosome-linked mutant genes in pigeons and ringneck doves.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked recessive mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and normal looking, het b/cg males. So b/cg is not recessive to the normal version of the gene.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked dominant mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and b/cg males.

Whatever is going on in the chromosomes seems pretty weird to me. I still have to look at that fish paper, though.

To follow up, Mark and I looked into the original banana, while the original female did only make female bananas, the normals were of both sexes. So I think it is reasonable to say they just missed on the male banana and the gene was still acting as it has been.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I have worked with Z chromosome-linked mutant genes in pigeons and ringneck doves.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked recessive mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and normal looking, het b/cg males. So b/cg is not recessive to the normal version of the gene.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked dominant mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and b/cg males.

Whatever is going on in the chromosomes seems pretty weird to me. I still have to look at that fish paper, though.

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I understand that most people who have been following this now believe that this is NOT a sex linked mutation. My understanding of a sex linked mutation, is that the mutation in question is located ON the chromosome that determines gender. If that is the case, then it would not be possible to have mutant males that pass on their mutation only to other males AND mutant males that passes on their mutation to only females. You could have one or the other, but not both. At least not if gender is only determined by the presence or absense of Z or W chromosomes

Here is an interesting link to sex studies done on lizards.... - Might not have anything to do with snakes, but who knows? - > http://www.tc.umn.edu/~gambl007/publ...kower_2012.pdf

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I understand that most people who have been following this now believe that this is NOT a sex linked mutation. My understanding of a sex linked mutation, is that the mutation in question is located ON the chromosome that determines gender. If that is the case, then it would not be possible to have mutant males that pass on their mutation only to other males AND mutant males that passes on their mutation to only females. You could have one or the other, but not both.

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Just to add to this, if we ever saw a sex linked gene, we would see one of these two scenarios:

W-Linked: Females could only have the gene, there would only be a heterozygous form, no supers. Every female born would have the gene, males never would.

Z-Linked: Both females and males could be heterozygous. Only males could be supers. Male morph or Male super morph x normal female would give normal ratios. Male normal x female morph would give all male morphs and all female normals.

and there wouldn't be any male maker/female maker but small percentage does the opposite stuff going on.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

At least not if gender is only determined by the presence or absense of Z or W chromosomes

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It is something to keep in the back of our minds, there are cases of chromosome not being the only sex determining factor, but I don't see any evidence to suggest it going on here.

New word for vocabulary lovers: hemizygous = having only one member of a chromosome pair or chromosome segment rather than the usual two; refers in particular to X-linked genes in male mammals and some insects and Z-linked genes in female birds and reptiles that under usual circumstances have only one X or Z chromosome.


http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/glossary=hemizygous