Why not to cohabitate any snake

This picture was taken at Repticon in Houston tonight while a vendor was unpacking and setting up. He transported all his snakes together. You know you get all those people that say they have kept their snakes together for years. this happened in less than three hours. My friend did not say the name of the vendor, for privacy reasons but I bet he will never do that again. This spider ball killed two spiders and ate one of them within a span of three hours. and yes it did kill the snake that ate the other one.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...22232276_n.jpg

Murder-suicide. Wow - that is really unfortunate.

And a pretty stupid move, TBH.

That is crazy!

Eek...

Poor things. Looks like they were some pretty skinny snakes judging by the one in the upper corner.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...5430b8b73c606f

People should know better. What a waste of some beautiful snakes. Poor things.

Yeah, got wind of this yesterday.
This really sucks but remember we are just old and stupid.
The young guys know more.

So sad... Worth saving the picture to post next the question comes up on the forum about housing snakes together.
PitOnTheProwl it is the nature of youth to assume they know more than the oldies. I wouldn't take it to heart. I have finally learned that the best sentence for a mother to here once her kids are grown is "mum you were right, I should have listened". The same applies to experience. In horses, that I've owned, shown, bred etc, for 47 years I always say "they know enough to get themselves in trouble". I suspect the same applies to snakes. I value your advice and that of other experienced keepers on here. Without it I would have probably would have gotten myself in trouble.



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Originally Posted by crepers86

This picture was taken at Repticon in Houston tonight while a vendor was unpacking and setting up. He transported all his snakes together. You know you get all those people that say they have kept their snakes together for years. this happened in less than three hours. My friend did not say the name of the vendor, for privacy reasons but I bet he will never do that again. This spider ball killed two spiders and ate one of them within a span of three hours. and yes it did kill the snake that ate the other one.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...22232276_n.jpg

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So you drew the conclusion that no snake, of ANY species should be co-habitated under any conditions - all because some idiot packed together a group of starving snakes?

Draw your conclusion better. The lesson here is that you shouldn't pack a crap load of snakes - skinny borderline emaciated snakes - together and then subject them to stress.

Now as for your attempt at an teachable moment - you failed.

I, and many other experienced keepers, have kept many species together. We cohabitate them in a responsible way in which they are provided plenty of room to find shelter, thermoregulate and live without stress. We take care to feed them in a way where they won't go after the same food item. We don't keep ophiophagus snakes together.

We are successful at it because we use common sense and experience. We don't recommend it for anyone but experienced keepers.

Now you come on here and take a swipe at experienced keepers who cohabitate by using this as an example? Think hard about how this applies to "any" snake as you claim. Think hard about how this boneheaded example applied to proper cohabitation.

Whatever you do, think before you respond. As a proponent of properly executed cohabitation of applicable species, I find your post pretty insulting, as well as lacking in drawing any logical conclusions between cohabitating and cannibalism. You used an example of an idiot packing all his skinny snakes together as an attempt to show why NO snake species should ever be cohabitated.

Ever, under ANY conditions. Is this what you meant, or are you just not adept at drawing conclusions and applying logic?

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Originally Posted by calmolly1

So sad... Worth saving the picture to post next the question comes up on the forum about housing snakes together.




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Wrong.

Worth saving the picture as a lesson about how to not pack snakes for transport.

The last thing this forum needs is more people, who have never successfully practiced something, giving advice on what to do.

Or not to do.

Keep in mind what you posted Skip.
"EXPERIENCED"

I stick with my greatest rule of...... What works in my house might not work in yours.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

So you drew the conclusion that no snake, of ANY species should be co-habitated under any conditions - all because some idiot packed together a group of starving snakes?

Draw your conclusion better. The lesson here is that you shouldn't pack a crap load of snakes - skinny borderline emaciated snakes - together and then subject them to stress.

Now as for your attempt at an teachable moment - you failed.

I, and many other experienced keepers, have kept many species together. We cohabitate them in a responsible way in which they are provided plenty of room to find shelter, thermoregulate and live without stress. We take care to feed them in a way where they won't go after the same food item. We don't keep ophiophagus snakes together.

We are successful at it because we use common sense and experience. We don't recommend it for anyone but experienced keepers.

Now you come on here and take a swipe at experienced keepers who cohabitate by using this as an example? Think hard about how this applies to "any" snake as you claim. Think hard about how this boneheaded example applied to proper cohabitation.

Whatever you do, think before you respond. As a proponent of properly executed cohabitation of applicable species, I find your post pretty insulting, as well as lacking in drawing any logical conclusions between cohabitating and cannibalism. You used an example of an idiot packing all his skinny snakes together as an attempt to show why NO snake species should ever be cohabitated.

Ever, under ANY conditions. Is this what you meant, or are you just not adept at drawing conclusions and applying logic?

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Hey man I didn't make my return back to this board and post this to be bashed on. There are more unexperienced keepers than there are you. I believe cohabitation could work, with the proper experience and knowledge on what to do. Zoos do it all the time and have very healthy animals, but there are a lot of people that lack the experience to put two in the same habitat. I am sorry that you feel insulted by this, but look at it from someones stand point that does not have the knowledge... A saying that someone said the other day... Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. But in my experience and all the research I have done I do not feel that any thing should be kept together except for the sole purpose of mating. One of my biggest reasons. If I have a snake that is sick and I am not sure which one and the vet needs a stole sample how do I know who just pooped unless I have to money to have both snakes looked at at the same time, or just sitting there watching them poop than yeah.

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Originally Posted by crepers86

Hey man I didn't make my return back to this board and post this to be bashed on. There are more unexperienced keepers than there are you. I believe cohabitation could work, with the proper experience and knowledge on what to do. Zoos do it all the time and have very healthy animals, but there are a lot of people that lack the experience to put two in the same habitat. I am sorry that you feel insulted by this, but look at it from someones stand point that does not have the knowledge... A saying that someone said the other day... Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. But in my experience and all the research I have done I do not feel that any thing should be kept together except for the sole purpose of mating. One of my biggest reasons. If I have a snake that is sick and I am not sure which one and the vet needs a stole sample how do I know who just pooped unless I have to money to have both snakes looked at at the same time, or just sitting there watching them poop than yeah.

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Not bashing. You called out people who cohabitate. You used this example as why to not cohabitate.

I cohabitate. You called out what I do. I'm vocal about it.

It's a bad example and the wrong conclusion to draw from this incident.

Your poop sample example is flawed also. I've covered it before, as have other experienced keepers who cohabitate.

For the record, I don't recommend cohabitation...my disclaimer is that it shouldn't be practice by everyone and with select species.

What I do recommend is that people don't bash something they don't do. I also recommend that people apply logic and experience to their advice.

I recommend that people who can barely crap out the rent, who can't afford vet care, who can't afford proper husbandry tools refrain from buying snakes.

...and that people stick to talking about what they have direct experience with.

How much experience do you have with a wide variety of species? How much cohabitation have you practiced? How many cases of spontaneous disease have you encountered in your established collection? What are your quarantine practices? Can you name species that are known to cohabitate peacefully and also which species are next to impossible to breed unless you cohabitate them year round?

You want to have a valid voice on this topic, let everyone know your expertise on it. You already stated you don't cohabitate. As far as I'm concerned, you don't get to weigh in with any legitimacy.

Now if you want to draw this as an example on the danger of packing a lot of snakes together and placing them in a stressful situation...I'm behind you 100%. But do not apply this act of utter stupidity to the responsible practice of keeping snakes together. Do not attempt to use this dumb incident as a rallying point to shame people who cohabitate.

Unless you can speak with any authority on the subject. If you can, I'll gladly listen.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Keep in mind what you posted Skip.
"EXPERIENCED"

I stick with my greatest rule of...... What works in my house might not work in yours.

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Hey Robert, I'm not asking anyone to do what I do in their house.

I'm asking people to not bash what I do in mine...and I'm asking people to use logic when drawing conclusions...and I'm asking people who want to question something do so by using experience and facts - not the same old tired BS that's been passed from forum to forum.

This has nothing to do with cohabitation. When did packing snakes together become an accepted practice?

Thread title would be better if renamed to something like "Why you shouldn't transport many snakes together" or "The risk of transporting multiple snakes in a single container."




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https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...5430b8b73c606f

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That snake in the top of the picture doesn't look like it ever ate. Here's my hypothesis:

Vendor has been trying and trying and trying to feed the emaciated animal to no avail. Come transport day he haphazardly tosses a bunch of spiders, known to be wonky critters anyway, together with this one smelling strongly of rodent. Doesn't take a large stretch of the imagination to foresee such an outcome.

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Originally Posted by Fireproof

Thread title would be better if renamed to something like "Why you shouldn't transport many snakes together" or "The risk of transporting multiple snakes in a single container."




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Even transporting snakes together can be done, not sure how many shows you have been working or even gone to but people vending pack their snakes together all the time, they display them together too, people shipping snake wholesale ship them in bag of 5 or 10 without any problems either.

There is one thing that was pointed out and everyone seems to fail to see even though that is the first thing that jumped at me in the picture.

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all because some idiot packed together a group of starving snakes?

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skinny borderline emaciated snakes

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Now let's focus on the real issue here

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/Starving.jpg

Skip has been keeping many different species of snakes for a very long time. I trust his word on cohabitating certain species of snakes. If you are going to make a comment about this topic then know what you are talking about in the first place. This topic has been brought up many times by people.

It is the same old song and dance. If you want to cohabitate then know what species this can be done with successfully. I trust someone that has been in this hobby a long time more then I do someone that just says this is why you should not cohabitate snakes together. Just my :2cent:.

Ran into this on FB.
Yeah I know im going to get the "but I kept mine together fine for years"
Your taking this risk.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...5fb983df70.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rob

Ran into this on FB.
Yeah I know im going to get the "but I kept mine together fine for years"
Your taking this risk.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...5fb983df70.jpg

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Merged with the already existing thread

Opps...apparently not keeping up as well I Should be.

My stance as always on this.
Can it be done successfully, yes. Should it be? As long as you know that no matter how long you've been doing it for, there is a risk involved. In my eyes that is an unnecessary risk.

Wow...sorry I spoke. I was really enjoying this forum, learning loads, and sharing what THE EXPERIENCED people on here have shared many times. In this instance "snakes cohabitating". I'm not going to spend two hours trolling through the forum to find the many different times this has been bashed, to the point it made an impression on me as something not to do. Now, because I'm new to snakes generally, if I pass on what these self same experts told me I'm wrong?? Really? Or is it just you don't want people to actually learn what you preach, and especially not pass it on? And skiploader I don't give a crap what you do with your snakes, I'm not going to put mine together. And since you do not know me, or what I'm successful at, your post is nothing short of rude and insulting. And this isn't the first time I've read posts from some of the members that have been in here the longest bashing folks for asking questions or passing on information they have been given. I had no idea I wasn't allowed to comment. But trust me I won't anymore, as my opinions and questions are obviously somehow putting a few of you on the attack.


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Wow a lot of hostility for no reason. One thing is speaking your mind, another is responding as if someone just tried to destroy your life. Take it easy people and stop being so nit-picky. Anyway, unfortunate event. I'm sure there's more to why it happened than just packing them up together.

I will say this though, it's impressive how strong of a feeding drive they can as well as how strong the muscles used to swallow are. We couldn't swallow something much larger than our throat. Yet this little thing swallowed an animal so large it stretched out it's skin so much you can see the meal being swallowed.

Funny I am not seeing hostility or bashing, I am seeing people who are overly sensitive and see someone's opinion as that. :rolleyes:

Bottom line keep your snake the way you want it's all about being responsible and knowledgeable kind of like the old live vs f/t debate. ;)

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Originally Posted by calmolly1

Wow...sorry I spoke. I was really enjoying this forum, learning loads, and sharing what THE EXPERIENCED people on here have shared many times. In this instance "snakes cohabitating". I'm not going to spend two hours trolling through the forum to find the many different times this has been bashed, to the point it made an impression on me as something not to do. Now, because I'm new to snakes generally, if I pass on what these self same experts told me I'm wrong?? Really? Or is it just you don't want people to actually learn what you preach, and especially not pass it on? And skiploader I don't give a crap what you do with your snakes, I'm not going to put mine together. And since you do not know me, or what I'm successful at, your post is nothing short of rude and insulting. And this isn't the first time I've read posts from some of the members that have been in here the longest bashing folks for asking questions or passing on information they have been given. I had no idea I wasn't allowed to comment. But trust me I won't anymore, as my opinions and questions are obviously somehow putting a few of you on the attack.


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The incident in question had nothing to do with co-habitating. You drew the wrong conclusion as did the OP.

There are many species of snakes that are routinely kept together. Commenting that NO snake can EVER be kept together is...well...uninformed.

Now go back and read my response to your post. If after reading it you somehow thing that what you do, what you're successful at, or that my post is bashing and you wish to remain insulted, well...I'm sure I'll find a way to soldier on in life.

A group of skinny possibly starving snakes were crammed in together and a completely avoidable accident occurred. Nobody was co-habitating anything. In fact I'm sure these snakes were probably kept in tidy little tupperware tubs. The fact that some people feel the need to draw a conclusion about this and relate it to co-habitating ANY snake species is absurd.

Let me draw up a little list of facts that are not facts that are bandied about as such on forums:

- No snake species can be cohabitated.
- Ball pythons require belly heat.
- Pine substrate will kill or compromise the health of your snakes.
- Ball pythons do not eat birds.
- Ball pythons do not climb.
- 6 months of quarantine protects you against all diseases.
- Ingested wood substrate causes impactions.
- Regurgitation is the same as vomiting.
- Soaking a snake before a shed is an acceptable method of ensuring a complete shed.
- Removing retained eye caps should be attempted at home with some tape.

This community gets smarter and subsequently can make better keepers out of people new to the hobby when people stop spreading information that is wrong or parroting advice in which they have no direct experience.

This community gets dumber when people mindless spread bad info and draw incorrect conclusions.

Now if you don't like what I have to say - then block me. It will not hurt my feelings, and apparently, it will spare you yours.

What in the world? I have no idea why my response to these pictures, which incidentally is the same as about 4 people who commented before me, has upset your "feelings" so badly. You are making generalized assumptions about the snakes involved because you see one skinny snake in the picture. I am entitled to my opinion, and as the nature of forums is to both ask and share opinions, you do not have the right to decide if what I practice with my animals or what I share of my experiences. Your list of practices that you infer are wrong are not necessarily the opinions of others. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

So you are inferring that by taking part in this forum I am lowering the quality of it. Exactly what bad info have I spread? I stated MY opinion. I choose for many reasons, including lack of the appropriate knowledge to keep my snakes separate. That does not make me mindless.


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Originally Posted by Deborah

Funny I am not seeing hostility or bashing, I am seeing people who are overly sensitive and see someone's opinion as that. :rolleyes:

Bottom line keep your snake the way you want it's all about being responsible and knowledgeable kind of like the old live vs f/t debate. ;)

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I completely agree. This thread just escalated so quickly for no reason. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

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Originally Posted by calmolly1

What in the world? I have no idea why my response to these pictures, which incidentally is the same as about 4 people who commented before me, has upset your "feelings" so badly. You are making generalized assumptions about the snakes involved because you see one skinny snake in the picture. I am entitled to my opinion, and as the nature of forums is to both ask and share opinions, you do not have the right to decide if what I practice with my animals or what I share of my experiences. Your list of practices that you infer are wrong are not necessarily the opinions of others. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

So you are inferring that by taking part in this forum I am lowering the quality of it. Exactly what bad info have I spread? I stated MY opinion. I choose for many reasons, including lack of the appropriate knowledge to keep my snakes separate. That does not make me mindless.


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Lol

As I said...wow! Talk about a stick in a hornets nest! Lol


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Originally Posted by Deborah

Even transporting snakes together can be done, not sure how many shows you have been working or even gone to but people vending pack their snakes together all the time, they display them together too, people shipping snake wholesale ship them in bag of 5 or 10 without any problems either.

There is one thing that was pointed out and everyone seems to fail to see even though that is the first thing that jumped at me in the picture.





Now let's focus on the real issue here

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/Starving.jpg

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I've been to many shows, but never worked at any, nor sold at any. I wasn't meaning to take one stance or the other on the transport of many snakes. My point was that the above mishap happened while "transporting" not cohabitating. And the above argument about using this situation as "evidence" that cohabitation shouldn't be done could've been avoided.

The cohabulation proclamation of transportation herein.

The comment I made was not intended to be used as "evidence". I was referring to the new folks to the snake world (including myself) who aren't aware of the dangers of putting snakes together, whether it be living, transporting, hanging out at home or at reptile shows. I posted a few months ago asking whether it was safe for my boa and ball to be out of their tubs at the same time. I wanted to know if the baby boa would eat the baby BP. I don't think I had much response or I missed it but used my common sense and decided what I thought was safe and the least stress for the snakes. Not everyone has any sense, and even less use it. I have no idea who skiploader is or what he does with his snakes and was in no way attacking him! Or anyone else with far better knowledge and judgement than myself. But I have seen a few ugly back and forths between the new snake owner buying two snakes "who love each other" and the old hands. Mostly saying don't do it unless you know what you are doing. I just felt like those pictures would be a wake up call at what MIGHT happen. Because some folks have no sense...


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well we have generated a discussion from which i find both sides interesting

but

i do have a worry now. I kept snakes for many years before circumstances changed that and i am getting back into it. i have bred before, several species but now i am worried about something that has never troubled me before

It seems the possibility does exist for a snake to harm another whilst kept together for mating. What are the ways to avoid or reduce the likelihood of this happening ?

All opinions greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

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Originally Posted by Paul's Pieds

well we have generated a discussion from which i find both sides interesting

but

i do have a worry now. I kept snakes for many years before circumstances changed that and i am getting back into it. i have bred before, several species but now i am worried about something that has never troubled me before

It seems the possibility does exist for a snake to harm another whilst kept together for mating. What are the ways to avoid or reduce the likelihood of this happening ?

All opinions greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

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To be fair it is extraordinarily rare for things like this to happen - that's why you always seem to see the same pictures posted when people ask about cannibalism. I think this is only the third set of pictures I have ever seen of BP on BP cannibalism.

The best preventatives I can think of for it to happen during mating as the same ones you should be doing anyway before during and after mating. Have well fed, unstressed snakes and keep an eye on things. Oh and double check the sexes before you try any pairings.

Oddly it makes me think more about some of the tricks we see for trouble feeders "put them in a small dark enclosure with the prey" and "take them for a drive" :weirdface

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Not bashing. You called out people who cohabitate. You used this example as why to not cohabitate.

I cohabitate. You called out what I do. I'm vocal about it.

It's a bad example and the wrong conclusion to draw from this incident.

Your poop sample example is flawed also. I've covered it before, as have other experienced keepers who cohabitate.

For the record, I don't recommend cohabitation...my disclaimer is that it shouldn't be practice by everyone and with select species.

What I do recommend is that people don't bash something they don't do. I also recommend that people apply logic and experience to their advice.

I recommend that people who can barely crap out the rent, who can't afford vet care, who can't afford proper husbandry tools refrain from buying snakes.

...and that people stick to talking about what they have direct experience with.

How much experience do you have with a wide variety of species? How much cohabitation have you practiced? How many cases of spontaneous disease have you encountered in your established collection? What are your quarantine practices? Can you name species that are known to cohabitate peacefully and also which species are next to impossible to breed unless you cohabitate them year round?

You want to have a valid voice on this topic, let everyone know your expertise on it. You already stated you don't cohabitate. As far as I'm concerned, you don't get to weigh in with any legitimacy.

Now if you want to draw this as an example on the danger of packing a lot of snakes together and placing them in a stressful situation...I'm behind you 100%. But do not apply this act of utter stupidity to the responsible practice of keeping snakes together. Do not attempt to use this dumb incident as a rallying point to shame people who cohabitate.

Unless you can speak with any authority on the subject. If you can, I'll gladly listen.

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Why do you always take these things personally? The blanket statement about what a bad idea cohabitation is is very obviously not an attack on your methods. You can cohab peacefully and walk away from these conversations without turning it into a crusade. There are no snake police who are going to come harass you for your housing situation. The general idea is that average joe can't/shouldn't cohabitate, and you yourself agree with this statement, and that's exactly what every post I've seen you get offended by boiled down to, but you still find reason to make it about yourself.

While perhaps not a good example as to why cohabitating snakes is a bad idea in general, I would say it's a good example to present to newer snake keepers who think cohabitation is a good way to save money/space. Bear in mind that many new keepers come to these forums thinking mouse pinkies/fuzzies are a good sized food to have their hatchlings on, and I have corrected countless people that think any snake species should only eat once a month if that. Now imagine those inexperienced keepers housing more than one of these snakes together, even in conditions that otherwise might be able to support two or more snakes?

Can cohabitation work? Sure. I don't do it, but I acknowledge that some people do so successfully. Do I think new keepers/those who don't know what they're doing should give it a try? Absolutely not. If someone comes here asking a series of questions about how to keep their new BPs and one of them is can I keep them together, I'll say no every time.

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Originally Posted by SaintTawny

Why do you always take these things personally? The blanket statement about what a bad idea cohabitation is is very obviously not an attack on your methods. You can cohab peacefully and walk away from these conversations without turning it into a crusade. There are no snake police who are going to come harass you for your housing situation. The general idea is that average joe can't/shouldn't cohabitate, and you yourself agree with this statement, and that's exactly what every post I've seen you get offended by boiled down to, but you still find reason to make it about yourself.

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I read the title of this thread, the first post, and then the picture and I have to disagree with you on almost every account. The title is a direct attack on his methods and thats all it is. The reason to not walk away from these conversations is to educate people and prevent the further spread of misinformation (which in general is a huge problem in this hobby). The blind attack on cohabitation still happens, my evidence, this thread. The OP was mistaken and skip set the record straight. Some people learned something today. I've been set straight on a few subjects in the same way, we all can acquire misinformation, it happens.

What we are seeing has nothing to do with cohabitation and the result of a severely under fed snake. The title of this thread sets to tone for something completely different. "This is why you should feed your snakes" would be a more appropriate title.

Also, I can't believe someone would bring snakes like that to a show and I have to assume it was with the intent to sell them....

Someone around here is always butthurt about something. I guess they woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or "didn't get any" last night..Not to mention any names, but maybe they should crawl back "under their pile of wood" I have always been told to never co-habitate snakes, and that is what is "preached" on this forum. Then when someone posts something like this they are immediately jumped on like a dog for posting what might happen with co-habitation. Wrapping up I will say this is VERY POOR forum for beginners to learn anything, because when a new person asks a question, and they get 20 answers, all completely different, and every reply says THEIR method is the gospel...What is a new person supposed to believe?!?!?!?!? I am no snake expert, and I learn new things every day, and some of my methods are outside the box, but they work for me. Thank God I learned what I know now long before I had a computer to visit forums on the internet...I take 99.9% of all the advice on this forum with a huge grain of salt. Sure sucks for people new to ball pythons wanting the best information for their reptile pets...

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Now let's focus on the real issue here

http://i954.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/Starving.jpg

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It is beyond me why anyone would even try to sell ANY animal that looks like that. That is an animal that is in piss poor shape to say the least. I understand ball pythons can be really picky eaters, but if I had that animal in a group of animals that are supposed to be for sale, that animal would not be included until I am satisfied that it is 100% healthy and eating on a regular basis. The ball python market is so saturated that to build a good reputation quality is one of the top things you need. Its not only selective breeder stock, but assuring that your animals are healthy as well. If I saw that snake on anyone's table for sale, I would not buy from them no matter what else they had. Thats just my 2 cents on this thread

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Originally Posted by ajmreptiles

It is beyond me why anyone would even try to sell ANY animal that looks like that. That is an animal that is in piss poor shape to say the least. I understand ball pythons can be really picky eaters, but if I had that animal in a group of animals that are supposed to be for sale, that animal would not be included until I am satisfied that it is 100% healthy and eating on a regular basis. The ball python market is so saturated that to build a good reputation quality is one of the top things you need. Its not only selective breeder stock, but assuring that your animals are healthy as well. If I saw that snake on anyone's table for sale, I would not buy from them no matter what else they had. Thats just my 2 cents on this thread

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Remember there are TONs of people that are flipping and/or just wanting to make a quick buck too.
It makes us all look bad.

Again, as far keeping snakes together. I still wont recommend it but I am open to discussing it.
Then again I recommend a vet trip for an RI but many of you already know I have never needed to make a vet trip for the 2 RI cases I had or the several that were left in my care. ;)

Actually I'm going to crawl back under that pile of wood.

Anyone who has sent me PMs, emails, or even read my posts knows that what I preach is "to do things in a way that works for you and your snake." Anyone who reaches out to me with a question, I answer. I am all about helping people care for their animals.

I don't advocate doing things my way, I only advocate doing things in a way that benefits your animal. I am also a strong advocate for not giving out any advice, warnings or cautions unless you are 100% sure of what you are saying. Nothing I have even written or said contradicts that.

Now, the reason why forums in general are so confusing to people new to the hobby is because so much BAD advice is given out. Incorrect info is given, mainly by people who have no experience in what they dare try to consult on. This is how myths that prevent knowledge and experience from being gained form. I'm all about breaking them up, and getting people to think outside the tupperware box.

This is really simple, so I will boil it down for you all one more time.

This thread was started as a caution to people against cohabitate. It was hinted that this thread and the pictures therein should be used to counter those who try to discuss how cohabitation can be done.

The problem is that the incident in question had nothing to do with cohabitation.

Get it? It's not that hard to grasp. The snakes in question were not cohabitated, therefore the example and it's conclusions are false. Now if you still have a problem with that, block me. I really don't want anyone who can't grasp that simple inarguable fact to read anything I write again.

Now to clear up the pages of misunderstanding and misdirection that have occurred since, pay attention:

Cohabitation can be done. It can be done successfully. It can be done if the correct species are considered and the correct set up has been provided. In some species, you cannot breed them successfully if you do not cohabitate them year round.

So the short answer to can it be done is yes.

However, as Robert and some others have pointed out, it is not recommended for a variety of reasons. Mainly because it requires additional husbandry steps, additional expenses and more expertise. While their are a handful of idiots who do it to save space and money, the fact remains that in order to do it correctly, more work and more money are actually involved. Period.

In short it is not recommended because of the propensity for human error.

Now if the OP had wanted to show a picture of someone incorrectly cohabbing snakes, I'd be all for it. But to make a point about something and use an example that does not apply in any way shape or form is sad.

...and yes, not grasping that fact is sadder.

So if this is hard for any of you to grasp, and if any of you want to continue to read personal attacks into this that aren't there - well, I actually feel real bad for you. I cannot imagine how hard it is to go through life burdened by the baggage of having my insecurities exposed and laid bare by a simple exchange on a reptile forum. If you have a problem with me, if you don't want to read what I write, or if what I write upsets you, block me.

Ok so would you feel better had the OP posted.."Look what can happen when you transport snakes together"? Anyway I come to this forum for the entertainment value, and this thread is entertaining, rather than any educational value. I have my own ways of doing things, that I would have been, and have been bashed for here in the past, but they work for me. My husbandry is good, my snakes eat without a problem, and they shed properly. So at the end of the day that is all that matters :gj:

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Originally Posted by albinos_rule

Someone around here is always butthurt about something. I guess they woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or "didn't get any" last night..Not to mention any names, but maybe they should crawl back "under their pile of wood" I have always been told to never co-habitate snakes, and that is what is "preached" on this forum. Then when someone posts something like this they are immediately jumped on like a dog for posting what might happen with co-habitation. Wrapping up I will say this is VERY POOR forum for beginners to learn anything, because when a new person asks a question, and they get 20 answers, all completely different, and every reply says THEIR method is the gospel...What is a new person supposed to believe?!?!?!?!? I am no snake expert, and I learn new things every day, and some of my methods are outside the box, but they work for me. Thank God I learned what I know now long before I had a computer to visit forums on the internet...I take 99.9% of all the advice on this forum with a huge grain of salt. Sure sucks for people new to ball pythons wanting the best information for their reptile pets...

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What is preached is beginners should no cohabitate, I don't think I have seen differently as a collective. There is not a grand cookie cutter way of taking care of snakes, the new person is going to have to learn that as soon as possible and do what works for them.

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Originally Posted by albinos_rule

Ok so would you feel better had the OP posted.."Look what can happen when you transport snakes together without feeding them"?

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Yes, the issue is that specific.

Im going to use an analogy of something I understand and know completely to get my point across. I used to teach riding and train horses for a living. Many many times I would instructing a beginner rider in how to hold the reins: hands still, thumbs up, reins a straight line from your hand to horses mouth. They get shouted at for snatching or pulling on the horses mouth! It was a "never do that" thing. Then one day they'd watch me training a young horse. My hands would be up, down, hands squeezing and releasing, forward, back etc. At their next lesson Id shout HANDS STILL! And they'd say "but you move your hands, why can't i?" Good question, right? Then I'd have to explain that in 40 years of riding and training my hands were very soft and the things I was doing is teaching the horse to flex his poll and bend his head. It was not by accident but advanced riding and training that the beginner was not ready for. They were still NEVER allowed to pull the reins. Some people just are incapable of seeing the difference. They would take a video of a trainer with their hands and assume it was ok for them to do something they had no knowledge of.

This situation is the same sort of thing. Beginners are not always able to understand that things experienced keepers do, they do not have the education to do successfully. Therefore it's a "DONT TRY THIS AT HOME" situation. That was my point, and as a beginner, I am not educated or trained enough to cohabitate. That picture, whatever the actual situation, should hopefully have a few other beginners running out to buy another container, or at least investigating their decision in more depth. Keep it simple.


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I'm glad that we can have an actual discussion about this topic. I know of at least one facebook group that doesn't even allow dissenting opinions about cohabitation. Which seems silly to me. How is an intelligent discourse supposed to happen when you censor and silence one sides view?

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Originally Posted by salt

How is an intelligent discourse supposed to happen..

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It's facebook, it doesn't :)

Do snakes truly not know how large of prey are capable of eating? Shouldn't they be able to judge prey size? How do they survive in the wild? I'm a somewhat noob owner, and I'm terrified of feeding my snake something too large, and have been using the weight system (he's a baby still) to feed, because I'd read if you feed them somethign too large the rat can start to rot in their bellies or kill them. But then I see pictures of snakes swallowing VERY llarge prey and being fine - and pictures and stories like this where they eat something so large it kills them. How on earth do they manage in the wild?

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Originally Posted by Spoons

Do snakes truly not know how large of prey are capable of eating? Shouldn't they be able to judge prey size?

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These snakes represented here were emaciated and spines showing, it probably didn't matter as to what they were eating, as long as it was alive and it was meat.
As for them in the wild, natural selection tells them what they need to eat, as the ones that survive will probably eat from the same source, and the ones that don't die, creating an ecosystem most likely that doesn't need thought or calibration on the prey size they want to eat.
More knowledgeable people please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sir Hognose

These snakes represented here were emaciated and spines showing, it probably didn't matter as to what they were eating, as long as it was alive and it was meat.
As for them in the wild, natural selection tells them what they need to eat, as the ones that survive will probably eat from the same source, and the ones that don't die, creating an ecosystem most likely that doesn't need thought or calibration on the prey size they want to eat.
More knowledgeable people please correct me if I'm wrong.

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You are onto something. You're close....

Cannibalism in snakes that normally are not ophiophagus has often been observed to result in the fatality of both participants. This further reinforces that it's not natural behavior and may be triggered by something other than normal predatory instincts. I mean if the act results in the death of the diner and the main course - how could any one argue it is normal behavior? Evolution doesn't work that way.

When you take into account that ball pythons are known to communally share denning sites, we can safely deduce they are not obligate cannibals. Such behavior would work against adaptations that assist in their survival. So what causes a starving, stressed animal to kill and eat something it normally would not try to eat?

The fancy scientific explanation:

The term "energetically stressed" accounts for this phenomenon and it has actual been studied in snakes with regards to cannibalism in non-cannibalistic species.

Energy is the primary behavior motivator in animals. Energetically stressed animals are known to modify their behavior in various seemingly unnatural ways in order to meet this critical demand.

In order to prevent an energetic shortfall, animals often increase their search activity to find food. When they become so energetically stressed that they reach a critical tipping point, they will attempt to predate on prey items which incur a greater risk either of predation or defensive injuries.

In some studies, non-ophiophagus snakes would first cannibalize dead members of their own species when faced with a paucity of food. If already deceased members of their own species were unavailable, they would try to cannibalize living brethren. As they were not suited for taking down ophiophagus prey, the attempts more often than not ended up in death for all involved. The reason for this? Snake eating requires some highly specialized modifications. Even if the eater was able to subdue the victim, a fundamental inability to properly ingest another snake (have you ever seen how a Clelia or Drymarchon eats another snake?) would result in death to the diner.

If you stick a starving snake in a stressful situation (new surroundings, unfamiliar motion) with another animal, that stress results in a increased demand for energy in an energetically stressed animal. In a panic to combat this energetic deficit, the snake tries to kill and eat the nearest thing it "thinks" it can eat - even if that thing isn't normally part of the menu, or even if that thing is something they may not be able to ingest/digest.

Cohabitation did not kill these animals. Stress and starvation (energy stress) did.

In a proper set up, with properly fed animals, where stress was kept to normal levels, where environmental parameters were correct, and where adequate space was provided, this would not have happened.

^ Very well said

I would be interested to know more about ball pythons found together in the wild but I don't want to derail this thread. I'll PM you :)