Why not to cohabitate any snake

[Skiploder]

Actually I'm going to crawl back under that pile of wood.

Anyone who has sent me PMs, emails, or even read my posts knows that what I preach is "to do things in a way that works for you and your snake." Anyone who reaches out to me with a question, I answer. I am all about helping people care for their animals.

I don't advocate doing things my way, I only advocate doing things in a way that benefits your animal. I am also a strong advocate for not giving out any advice, warnings or cautions unless you are 100% sure of what you are saying. Nothing I have even written or said contradicts that.

Now, the reason why forums in general are so confusing to people new to the hobby is because so much BAD advice is given out. Incorrect info is given, mainly by people who have no experience in what they dare try to consult on. This is how myths that prevent knowledge and experience from being gained form. I'm all about breaking them up, and getting people to think outside the tupperware box.

This is really simple, so I will boil it down for you all one more time.

This thread was started as a caution to people against cohabitate. It was hinted that this thread and the pictures therein should be used to counter those who try to discuss how cohabitation can be done.

The problem is that the incident in question had nothing to do with cohabitation.

Get it? It's not that hard to grasp. The snakes in question were not cohabitated, therefore the example and it's conclusions are false. Now if you still have a problem with that, block me. I really don't want anyone who can't grasp that simple inarguable fact to read anything I write again.

Now to clear up the pages of misunderstanding and misdirection that have occurred since, pay attention:

Cohabitation can be done. It can be done successfully. It can be done if the correct species are considered and the correct set up has been provided. In some species, you cannot breed them successfully if you do not cohabitate them year round.

So the short answer to can it be done is yes.

However, as Robert and some others have pointed out, it is not recommended for a variety of reasons. Mainly because it requires additional husbandry steps, additional expenses and more expertise. While their are a handful of idiots who do it to save space and money, the fact remains that in order to do it correctly, more work and more money are actually involved. Period.

In short it is not recommended because of the propensity for human error.

Now if the OP had wanted to show a picture of someone incorrectly cohabbing snakes, I'd be all for it. But to make a point about something and use an example that does not apply in any way shape or form is sad.

...and yes, not grasping that fact is sadder.

So if this is hard for any of you to grasp, and if any of you want to continue to read personal attacks into this that aren't there - well, I actually feel real bad for you. I cannot imagine how hard it is to go through life burdened by the baggage of having my insecurities exposed and laid bare by a simple exchange on a reptile forum. If you have a problem with me, if you don't want to read what I write, or if what I write upsets you, block me.

[albinos_rule]

Ok so would you feel better had the OP posted.."Look what can happen when you transport snakes together"? Anyway I come to this forum for the entertainment value, and this thread is entertaining, rather than any educational value. I have my own ways of doing things, that I would have been, and have been bashed for here in the past, but they work for me. My husbandry is good, my snakes eat without a problem, and they shed properly. So at the end of the day that is all that matters

[OhhWatALoser]

Someone around here is always butthurt about something. I guess they woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or "didn't get any" last night..Not to mention any names, but maybe they should crawl back "under their pile of wood" I have always been told to never co-habitate snakes, and that is what is "preached" on this forum. Then when someone posts something like this they are immediately jumped on like a dog for posting what might happen with co-habitation. Wrapping up I will say this is VERY POOR forum for beginners to learn anything, because when a new person asks a question, and they get 20 answers, all completely different, and every reply says THEIR method is the gospel...What is a new person supposed to believe?!?!?!?!? I am no snake expert, and I learn new things every day, and some of my methods are outside the box, but they work for me. Thank God I learned what I know now long before I had a computer to visit forums on the internet...I take 99.9% of all the advice on this forum with a huge grain of salt. Sure sucks for people new to ball pythons wanting the best information for their reptile pets...

What is preached is beginners should no cohabitate, I don't think I have seen differently as a collective. There is not a grand cookie cutter way of taking care of snakes, the new person is going to have to learn that as soon as possible and do what works for them.

Ok so would you feel better had the OP posted.."Look what can happen when you transport snakes together without feeding them"?

Yes, the issue is that specific.

[calmolly1]

Im going to use an analogy of something I understand and know completely to get my point across. I used to teach riding and train horses for a living. Many many times I would instructing a beginner rider in how to hold the reins: hands still, thumbs up, reins a straight line from your hand to horses mouth. They get shouted at for snatching or pulling on the horses mouth! It was a "never do that" thing. Then one day they'd watch me training a young horse. My hands would be up, down, hands squeezing and releasing, forward, back etc. At their next lesson Id shout HANDS STILL! And they'd say "but you move your hands, why can't i?" Good question, right? Then I'd have to explain that in 40 years of riding and training my hands were very soft and the things I was doing is teaching the horse to flex his poll and bend his head. It was not by accident but advanced riding and training that the beginner was not ready for. They were still NEVER allowed to pull the reins. Some people just are incapable of seeing the difference. They would take a video of a trainer with their hands and assume it was ok for them to do something they had no knowledge of.

This situation is the same sort of thing. Beginners are not always able to understand that things experienced keepers do, they do not have the education to do successfully. Therefore it's a "DONT TRY THIS AT HOME" situation. That was my point, and as a beginner, I am not educated or trained enough to cohabitate. That picture, whatever the actual situation, should hopefully have a few other beginners running out to buy another container, or at least investigating their decision in more depth. Keep it simple.


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[salt]

I'm glad that we can have an actual discussion about this topic. I know of at least one facebook group that doesn't even allow dissenting opinions about cohabitation. Which seems silly to me. How is an intelligent discourse supposed to happen when you censor and silence one sides view?

[OhhWatALoser]

How is an intelligent discourse supposed to happen..

It's facebook, it doesn't

[Spoons]

Do snakes truly not know how large of prey are capable of eating? Shouldn't they be able to judge prey size? How do they survive in the wild? I'm a somewhat noob owner, and I'm terrified of feeding my snake something too large, and have been using the weight system (he's a baby still) to feed, because I'd read if you feed them somethign too large the rat can start to rot in their bellies or kill them. But then I see pictures of snakes swallowing VERY llarge prey and being fine - and pictures and stories like this where they eat something so large it kills them. How on earth do they manage in the wild?

[Sir Hognose]

Do snakes truly not know how large of prey are capable of eating? Shouldn't they be able to judge prey size?

These snakes represented here were emaciated and spines showing, it probably didn't matter as to what they were eating, as long as it was alive and it was meat.
As for them in the wild, natural selection tells them what they need to eat, as the ones that survive will probably eat from the same source, and the ones that don't die, creating an ecosystem most likely that doesn't need thought or calibration on the prey size they want to eat.
More knowledgeable people please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Skiploder]

These snakes represented here were emaciated and spines showing, it probably didn't matter as to what they were eating, as long as it was alive and it was meat.
As for them in the wild, natural selection tells them what they need to eat, as the ones that survive will probably eat from the same source, and the ones that don't die, creating an ecosystem most likely that doesn't need thought or calibration on the prey size they want to eat.
More knowledgeable people please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are onto something. You're close....

Cannibalism in snakes that normally are not ophiophagus has often been observed to result in the fatality of both participants. This further reinforces that it's not natural behavior and may be triggered by something other than normal predatory instincts. I mean if the act results in the death of the diner and the main course - how could any one argue it is normal behavior? Evolution doesn't work that way.

When you take into account that ball pythons are known to communally share denning sites, we can safely deduce they are not obligate cannibals. Such behavior would work against adaptations that assist in their survival. So what causes a starving, stressed animal to kill and eat something it normally would not try to eat?

The fancy scientific explanation:

The term "energetically stressed" accounts for this phenomenon and it has actual been studied in snakes with regards to cannibalism in non-cannibalistic species.

Energy is the primary behavior motivator in animals. Energetically stressed animals are known to modify their behavior in various seemingly unnatural ways in order to meet this critical demand.

In order to prevent an energetic shortfall, animals often increase their search activity to find food. When they become so energetically stressed that they reach a critical tipping point, they will attempt to predate on prey items which incur a greater risk either of predation or defensive injuries.

In some studies, non-ophiophagus snakes would first cannibalize dead members of their own species when faced with a paucity of food. If already deceased members of their own species were unavailable, they would try to cannibalize living brethren. As they were not suited for taking down ophiophagus prey, the attempts more often than not ended up in death for all involved. The reason for this? Snake eating requires some highly specialized modifications. Even if the eater was able to subdue the victim, a fundamental inability to properly ingest another snake (have you ever seen how a Clelia or Drymarchon eats another snake?) would result in death to the diner.

If you stick a starving snake in a stressful situation (new surroundings, unfamiliar motion) with another animal, that stress results in a increased demand for energy in an energetically stressed animal. In a panic to combat this energetic deficit, the snake tries to kill and eat the nearest thing it "thinks" it can eat - even if that thing isn't normally part of the menu, or even if that thing is something they may not be able to ingest/digest.

Cohabitation did not kill these animals. Stress and starvation (energy stress) did.

In a proper set up, with properly fed animals, where stress was kept to normal levels, where environmental parameters were correct, and where adequate space was provided, this would not have happened.

[HVani]

^ Very well said

I would be interested to know more about ball pythons found together in the wild but I don't want to derail this thread. I'll PM you