Orangebelly Color Change

So this is going to be a long post with lots of pictures. I am trying to cover 2 seasons of breeding with some very unique results. Last year, 1 of the Orangebelly males that I produced in 2012 underwent a really cool color change, going almost Axanthic, then turning very dark. I thought it was a unique, random occurrence, until a female Orangebelly that I produced last year began the same change. I am posting this looking for any help that others may be able to give.

It started when I purchased a 2009 male Orangebelly from Adam Chesla at the November 2010 Repticon in Columbia, South Carolina. I purchased this animal because Adam told me about the Graphite Ivories that the Orangebelly line sometimes produces and because this male Orangebelly looked really cool. You can see this male here:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2014-07-05.jpg
Or at World of Ball Pythons (http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/orange-belly/).

In the 2011-2012 season, he sired 3 clutches that produced 4 male Orangebellies and a female Pastel Orangebelly. All of his Orangebelly sons looked similar to him, but not quite the same. Here are 2 pictures of the 2 sibling male Orangebellies:
2012 Clutch 6 Male 1
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...6_male_1_5.jpg
2012 Clutch 6 Male 3
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...6_male_3_3.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file..._male_3_13.jpg

For the first year and a half, I did not notice anything unique about any of the siblings. I traded 1 to a friend. Then, when getting ready for the March 2014 Savannah, Georgia Repticon show, I noticed that 1 of the 2012 Clutch 6 males was getting lighter. Here is a picture that shows the difference (the male that is getting lighter is 2012 Clutch 6 Male 3 in the middle of his Orangebelly brother and Orangebelly half brother).
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2014-03-09.jpg

In May of 2014, I took some more pictures to see how his color had changed.
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...ly_weird_2.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...lly_shot_1.jpg
Shown with his 2012 half sibling Orangebelly brother (1 of the 2 normal looking Orangebellies in the previous comparison picture).
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...mparison_2.jpg

Then in June, I noticed that he was getting darker (shown with his father on top and 2012 half brother Orangebelly brother):
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...le_3_orang.jpg

Here is another picture of the same 3 snakes from July 2014:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2014-07-05.jpg

Here is what he looks like now (pictures are from August 2014)
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_2.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_3.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_4.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-22_6.jpg

As I said, I thought this was a random occurrance, until a 2013 female Orangebelly started to go through a similar change. She is still in the lightening up phase. I expect that she will darken up like her older half brother.

Here is her in August 2014:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-09_3.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-08-09_6.jpg

And here she is on Saturday, November 29, 2014:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-20_1.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-20_2.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-20_6.jpg

And here are 2 pictures of the 2012 "normal" Orangebelly, 2012 "Weirdo" Orangebelly, and the 2013 "Weirdette" Orangebelly:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-29_5.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-11-29_7.jpg

Well, I look forward to hearing what you guys think. Obviously I have a new project on my hands. Any help would be appreciated.

The changes are so dramatic! I have no professional opinions to add, but I look forward to hearing all the theories and updates!

........ :confuzd: ........

Very interesting ... I will be following this post

Well I'm definitely hooked; subscribed to this thread. I'd love to have one of those babies some day. Possible new gene at play here.

I lurk a lot but I'm sticking for this one


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

Seems like an odd color shift over such a short period of time...

Well,
I have no explanation but I would like to add that I met a lady walking around Repticon Atlanta a couple years back. She was carrying a similar looking snake. It was just a normal but it was so black you almost couldn't see the pattern in it, sort of like an adult Black Rat Snake. I asked her what it was and she said she purchased it as a normal and a year or two later it started to change and then just kept getting darker. Until I saw this thread I hadn't seen anything else like it. It's interesting that only a couple have shown the trait and the animal throwing it doesn't show any sign of it. Was it the same pairing that produced all of the subjects?

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Originally Posted by Viol8

Seems like an odd color shift over such a short period of time...

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The 2012 male Orangebelly took over 16 months to start the change, and took about 4-5 months to complete the change. The 2013 female took over 13 months to start the change and we'll see how long it takes her to complete it. It has been about 1 1/2 to 2 months, and 2 or 3 sheds to go from her starting color, to where she is now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

Well,
I have no explanation but I would like to add that I met a lady walking around Repticon Atlanta a couple years back. She was carrying a similar looking snake. It was just a normal but it was so black you almost couldn't see the pattern in it, sort of like an adult Black Rat Snake. I asked her what it was and she said she purchased it as a normal and a year or two later it started to change and then just kept getting darker. Until I saw this thread I hadn't seen anything else like it. It's interesting that only a couple have shown the trait and the animal throwing it doesn't show any sign of it. Was it the same pairing that produced all of the subjects?

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It is very interesting that the founding animal hasn't gone through this color change. However, he has a unique color and blushing of his own. The 2 Orangebellies to show this color change are from 2 different females. I have 3 more male Orangebellies from last season. 2 are from the same pairing as the 2013 female Orangebelly and 1 is from the same male, but a different female. These 3 male Orangebellies are smaller than their sister, so any of them may still go through the color change. I would love to hang on to these 3 males to see if they change, but I may not have enough room in my racks for them, so I might have to sell these 3 male Orangebellies from last year (they are about 350 grams, and I think the color change has started once the snake reaches about 500 grams).

well. dude... if you need room, I can take one off your hands **whistles** ;) Levity aside that is just cool. I wonder if it IS a gene thing that you can duplicate with offspring.

I've never had it happen to me personally, but there have been several snakes that this has happened to over the years. It's not genetic and some have theorized that it's the result of a bacterial infection but I don't think that's ever been proven. Generally people have reported that it started with an odd rather waxy looking defecation followed by a shed that appeared to be thicker then normal. I'm not sure if anyone has ever figured out what is actually going on, but it appears to strip away the top layer of pigment and gradually replaces it with melanine. It certainly is odd and I've never heard of it happening twice to the same person.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I've never had it happen to me personally, but there have been several snakes that this has happened to over the years. It's not genetic and some have theorized that it's the result of a bacterial infection but I don't think that's ever been proven. Generally people have reported that it started with an odd rather waxy looking defecation followed by a shed that appeared to be thicker then normal. I'm not sure if anyone has ever figured out how it happens, but it appears to strip away the top layer of pigment and gradually replaces it with melanine. It certainly is odd and I've never heard of it happening twice to the same person.

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Didnt RDR do a vid on youtube about it? I seem to remember seeing one on it.

Yup, it happened to Ralph, I know he has it somewhere in his blog notes. Bob Clark too, he had a spider that this suddenly happened to. He posted pictures of it online without any explanation and everyone got all excited thinking he had produced the first axanthic spider.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I've never had it happen to me personally, but there have been several snakes that this has happened to over the years. It's not genetic and some have theorized that it's the result of a bacterial infection but I don't think that's ever been proven. Generally people have reported that it started with an odd rather waxy looking defecation followed by a shed that appeared to be thicker then normal. I'm not sure if anyone has ever figured out what is actually going on, but it appears to strip away the top layer of pigment and gradually replaces it with melanine. It certainly is odd and I've never heard of it happening twice to the same person.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BPSnakeLady

Didnt RDR do a vid on youtube about it? I seem to remember seeing one on it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yup, it happened to Ralph, I know he has it somewhere in his blog notes. Bob Clark too, he had a spider that this suddenly happened to. He posted pictures of it online without any explanation and everyone got all excited thinking he had produced the first axanthic spider.

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Here is a link to a YouTube video that Ralph Davis did on the "Over Night" change https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0BON9anGVE

Some thoughts about your post (I am not trying to argue, just discuss and point out the observations that I have made, I only have 3 seasons of breeding, so there is still a lot that I have to learn):

First - if it were bacterial, wouldn't it be more likely to spread? Especially to snakes in tubs near by?

Second - I have had this happen now twice in 2 years

Third - it has happened to animals sired by the same male

Fourth - it occurred to animals with the Orangebelly gene, not any of his normal offspring

Fifth - I have never observed an unusual deification from either of the 2 animals that this happened to

Sixth - neither animal exhibited a thicker than normal shed, all of their sheds have seemed very normal

Seventh - the change has been very gradual. You wouldn't really notice it unless you had other examples of the morph to compare to until they are almost Axanthic like

Based on these observations, I do not think what is happening to my animals is the same as what Ralph Davis has documented in his video. I also would think that there might be a genetic component because it has happened to 2 animals 2 years in a row, both from the same male, both with the Orangebelly gene. That is a lot of coincidence. Just some thoughts and observations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slowcountry Balls

Based on these observations, I do not think what is happening to my animals is the same as what Ralph Davis has documented in his video. I also would think that there might be a genetic component because it has happened to 2 animals 2 years in a row, both from the same male, both with the Orangebelly gene. That is a lot of coincidence. Just some thoughts and observations.

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Who knows? you might be right. Only time will tell.

im subscribing to this one! :) great collections you have!

Do you plan on breeding the 2 offspring together? I'm curious of the outcome of that pairing...

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Originally Posted by Viol8r

Do you plan on breeding the 2 offspring together? I'm curious of the outcome of that pairing...

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I would be curious about this too. However, there could be a significant difference as we should be talking about an all white snake barring any anomolies, since two OB's make an Ivory and an Ivory is the only way you would gaurentee both parents passed the gene that is suspected to carry the trait. Also, since the subject snake does not seem to be throwing the trait in every offspring, it could be a hit and miss situation even with both parents exhibiting the trait. Best of luck whatever you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I would be curious about this too. However, there could be a significant difference as we should be talking about an all white snake barring any anomolies, since two OB's make an Ivory and an Ivory is the only way you would gaurentee both parents passed the gene that is suspected to carry the trait. Also, since the subject snake does not seem to be throwing the trait in every offspring, it could be a hit and miss situation even with both parents exhibiting the trait. Best of luck whatever you do.

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I had thought about the Ivory issue too. I still plan on pairing them together for the 2015-2016 season. I think it will still give me the best chance of seeing if there is a genetic component to this color change.

For this season (2014-2015) I'm pairing the founding male with 3 of his daughters from the 2011-2012 season, a normal, a Pastel, and a Pastel Orangebelly. I'm hoping that this line breeding will help give some insight into this puzzle.

very interesteng.. pairing wierdo and wiedette might lead to something else.. that's gonna be something.:)

MarkS you are incorrect about what you are saying......

What you are referring to is when over night the snake will lose all color. People wrongly refer to it as IMG. We have a snake that this has happened to. This issue is completely different. It also looks to be genetic. Otherwise how else did it happen to 2 different clutches in the same tree?
This looks like it may actually be an IMG snake.

I don't know if this is genetic or not (obviously, I hope it is). I have been trying to learn about as much as I can about color changes. I have been talking to other breeders at the Repticon shows that I have vended at. I have been in email contact with a very well known and respected breeder about this. So far the 2012 male Orangebelly has drawn a lot of attention, but no answers. The 2013 female Orangebelly was in her shed that resulted in her becoming Axanthic looking. I almost missed the changed. At the Savannah Reptiday show (October 25, 2014) I was comparing her to her brothers and half brothers from the 2013 season, and noticed that she wasn't standing out as much as they do. She had the belly markings, flames, and head spot, but her base color was muted. Normally the Orangebellies that I have produced pop out because of their base color and the clear Orangebelly/Yellowbelly markers. I had her for sale at that show. The very next weekend was the Columbia Repticon show and I had her for sale and her weird, older half brother on display. She was deep in the middle of shed, and no one even looked at her. A few days later, she finished her shed and that was when I noticed she was Axanthic like. That's when I really thought that it may have a genetic component (prior to that, I was mainly hoping). So I decided to post on here looking for more input. I appreciate you guys responding and hope that we can figure this out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

MarkS you are incorrect about what you are saying......

What you are referring to is when over night the snake will lose all color. People wrongly refer to it as IMG. We have a snake that this has happened to. This issue is completely different. It also looks to be genetic. Otherwise how else did it happen to 2 different clutches in the same tree?
This looks like it may actually be an IMG snake.

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You're likely right, but I would be hesitant to call ANYTHING genetic until it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There are plenty of people in this hobby who have been left with egg on their faces by declaring something to be obviously genetic when it later proved not to be so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You're likely right, but I would be hesitant to call ANYTHING genetic until it's been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. There are plenty of people in this hobby who have been left with egg on their faces by declaring something to be obviously genetic when it later proved not to be so.

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I don't know if this color change is or isn't genetic. Just with what I am seeing, I am beginning to think that this color change may have a genetic component. It may be similar to the graphite markings in a Graphite Ivory. Not all Orangebellies produce Graphite Ivories, but it is repatable. We know that it is some how linked, but we are not sure what the mechanism is. It is also interesting that the graphite markings can take time to show up. The 2013 Graphite Ivories that I produced from this same founding male took 6 and 10 months to get their first graphite markings. Only time and more breeding will provide the data needed to reach reasonable conclusions. Until there is more data, I'm open to other ideas/theories and appreciate the feedback.

Just some updated pictures. The 2012 male Orangebelly that has changed is in shed, so I will add pictures of him after he sheds, but the 2013 female Orangebelly that is changing just shed yesterday. She has passed the Axanthic looking point, and is starting to get a little bit of color back in as she darkens up.

Here are a few of her by herself:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-12-08_1.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-12-08_2.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-12-08_4.jpg

And here are 2 of her with the 2012 male Orangebelly (normal):
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-12-08_1.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...14-12-08_3.jpg

I'll keep posting pictures as she continues to change.

New lens arrived that allows me to take wider angle shots and the 2 color changing Orangebellies shed this week, so I thought I would take some updated pictures:

The color changing 2013 female Orangebelly is on the left, the color changing 2012 male Orangebelly is on the right, and the normal colored 2012 male Orangebelly is front, middle.
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-01-03.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-01-03.jpg

it s amazing this color change, i hope you can prove it coz they really look great

A few more pictures showing how dark the 2013 female has gotten. She is almost as dark as the 2012 male. In the first two pictures, the 2013 female Orangebelly is on top and the 2012 male Orangebelly is on bottom. In the third picture, the 2013 female Orangebelly is on top, while the "normal" 2012 male Orangebelly is on the left, and the 2012 Weird Orangebelly is on the right.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-01-10.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-01-10.jpg
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2015-01-10.jpg

Just wanted to update this thread with a really exciting picture:

http://i772.photobucket.com/albums/y...pseormzayo.jpg

The two color changing Orangebellies have locked up!

Woo Hoo, super color changers.

I really want to see what the ivories in this clutch look like, could be pretty exciting.

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Originally Posted by C2tcardin

Woo Hoo, super color changers.

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Hopefully! Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I really want to see what the ivories in this clutch look like, could be pretty exciting.

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Me too. I am also pairing the male color changing Orangebelly with his Pastel Orangebelly sister, so maybe another shot at Ivories or even Pastel Ivories.

any news slow??? where are those ivories

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Originally Posted by darkranger69

any news slow??? where are those ivories

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I'm pairing the color changing male Orangebelly with the color changing female Orangebelly, a female Pastel Orangebelly (his sister) and maybe two other girls (haven't decided for sure yet). I am trying to keep this project on the small and manageable side until I know more about what is going on.

As for the Ivories, I sold all the Ivories because they were either Orangebelly/Yellowbelly Ivories or Super Orangebelly Ivories but with one Orangebelly gene from another breeder, unrelated to my male Orangebelly that sired everything that I have.

The two Ivories that developed Graphite markings were males from 2013 that are Orangebelly/Yellowbelly Ivories. I sold them about a year ago, so I don't know what they are looking like. Their sister Ivory did not have any graphite markings when I traded her, but the gentlemen who has her recently sent me an email saying that he thinks she is starting to develop some Graphite markings. So it will be interesting to see what happens with her.

The customer who bought the 2014 female Ivory (a Super Orangebelly Ivory) is keeping me posted on her progression. She had a couple of spots that looked like they could be turning into Graphite markings, but they still haven't become definite Graphite markings yet.

nice updated, i guess you need at least one year to kno what s going on.