ALL Ball Python breeders, STOP posting photos with no info about what you posted

Please stop this practice, if you are thinking of using this practice, please do not do so. It's not clever it is obnoxious. I mean this even when I have literally no interest in the animal posted, what makes things worse is then the breeder also seems to refuse to answer questions about the animal or even posts inside info that only one or two other people that are privy to the project will understand.

It's VERY poor and confusing advertising. State exactly what you are posting, if it is a teaser you are aiming for, explain the project and that there will be more info forthcoming once the animal or gene is figured out.

...Wow.

No, I'm serious I think it is actually counter productive advertising. Post a picture of a single animal, people are excited and want to know more about the animal and you go dark? LOL

:confuzd: Its not the breeders job to inform you what they used to make up their snakes. If you don't know what the morph was created with do the research yourself. I am not a breeder and I can not name half the morphs in the ball python world but I do still enjoy seeing what has been created. I do not require a description for every pic I see. You should just be happy the breeders take the time to share the pics at all instead of complaining about it.

Maybe you would enjoy the Genetic Wizard on World of Ball Pythons site.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/

They also have a morph list, it even has pictures.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/

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Originally Posted by Ransack

Please stop this practice, if you are thinking of using this practice, please do not do so. It's not clever it is obnoxious. I mean this even when I have literally no interest in the animal posted, what makes things worse is then the breeder also seems to refuse to answer questions about the animal or even posts inside info that only one or two other people that are privy to the project will understand.

It's VERY poor and confusing advertising. State exactly what you are posting, if it is a teaser you are aiming for, explain the project and that there will be more info forthcoming once the animal or gene is figured out.

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How about they keep posting and you stop clicking on the links? :P

Someone put on his big boy pants backwards??

You know what really grinds my gears!?!?!:rage:

People that post threads in the wrong forum section. :taz:








That was great Pit.:rofl:

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Originally Posted by KMG

You know what really grinds my gears!?!?!:rage:

People that post threads in the wrong forum section. :taz:

That was great Pit.:rofl:

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It really grinds my gears when sellers don't post a photo in the ad! Heck I know I can't afford to buy the animal, but I do want to see what a super-X-Y-Z hypo looks like and drool over the eye candy... only to read "email me for pics". :mad:

You guys are wrong but that's OK. Back in the age of the big breeders, they would introduce projects taking the hobby through it step by step often in a multiple page article in Reptiles magazine where the projected was highlighted. Now I have people in here arguing that it's sufficient to post just a photo nothing else...I mean the markets booming LOL. I'm telling you, IT'S POOR ADVERTISING, it's not even sufficent as a teaser

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Originally Posted by Ransack

Please stop this practice, if you are thinking of using this practice, please do not do so. It's not clever it is obnoxious. I mean this even when I have literally no interest in the animal posted, what makes things worse is then the breeder also seems to refuse to answer questions about the animal or even posts inside info that only one or two other people that are privy to the project will understand.

It's VERY poor and confusing advertising. State exactly what you are posting, if it is a teaser you are aiming for, explain the project and that there will be more info forthcoming once the animal or gene is figured out.

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Boohoo :tears: ..............news flash the world does not revolve around YOU and no one owes YOU anything.

How many times do you need to see the process? I believe that most people buying a snake will know the process and they are really only interested in the end results. However, I know plenty of people actually do a pretty detailed thread on their clutches. Maybe search and follow those people.

I do not understand why you believe a breeder should create a long article here. This is not a magazine.

Some of us who were there at that time too remember it differently. :P

They laid it out so well nobody knew about the spider wobble, caramels kinking etc.

To find out what made combo's you usually had to buy one and then they would explain.

When I bought my first ball python there was only one proven morph known - albino. :O

And I'm a newb compared to some of the folks on here. ;)

While I do occasionally wonder at the stunning photographs of never-before-seen morphs, and wish the breeder would at lest give some hint as to what is in it. To come to a public forum and demand that all breeders MUST tell me exactly what is in each and every snake they photograph or not post the picture is pretty damn arrogant and ignorant.

A breeder who has invested years of time and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on a new project is not going to want every Tom, Richard, and Harry out there who owns a ball python to start pumping out dozens of identical or similar morphs and flood the market, thus insuring the breeder won't even be able to sell the animals he worked so hard to produce. So why don't you just get down off your damn high horse, and if you want to know what's in one of those never-before-seen morphs, then save up your money and offer to buy one from the breeder and then you'll know what's in it.

Otherwise, stop looking at the pictures and then you won't have anything to complain about, now will you?

Gale

While we're making demands, I want a pony.

If you're not happy with the advertising don't click, don't buy? Or am I missing something?

I think this thread needs some pictures ;)

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I think this thread needs some pictures ;)

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Agreed! Pics or it didnt happen!

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Boohoo :tears: ..............news flash the world does not revolve around YOU and no one owes YOU anything.

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Not a boo hoo situation. I’m being calm and logical here. If you thought you were coming in here to give me the business, I ask that you think again.

Another poster stated in this same thread that it is not the breeders responsibility to state what animals were used, that is very true but it truly does behoove the breeder to do so. Especially if we are talking about a triple or quadruple gene co dom anima as it sort of doesn’t matter what you have outside of breeding potential as you and everybody else still have to hit the odds to reproduce that animal.



If you are a hobby breeder and simply want to show off a hatchiling that you produced that is beautiful, hard to hit on or both, fine. But if you have any interest at all in selling your offspring It’s not like it needs to be a top secret . You won’t get a clutch of that exact animal by even breeding two of the same animal together. So instead of odd self congratulatory, self promotion by simply posting a blank photo of a animal, why not try telling the BUYING public exactly what was used to garner interest in the component genes that are rapidly falling in price…AND LETTING THEM KNOW YOU HAVE THE HATCHILINGS AND CORRESPONDING GENES AVAILABLE TO MAKE THIS ANIMAL AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE.

I would rather stoke peoples interest and excitement for the hobby and a project than play peek a boo with other breeders.

Once again I'll state that I feel posting mysterious pictures without a back story or project details and answering no questions is counter productive to sales and public interest past that first 24 hours.


To be honest if we are talking simple recessive , I don’t believe I have ever seen a recessive project not promoted to the moon and back because usually one or two people have the market cornered.


I feel I stated my case clearly and concisely. Deborah and Pitt on the Prowl do you have a counter point instead of "BOO HOO" and "Big Boy Pants" as to why posting pictures with no info or title is something you feel is imperative?

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I think this thread needs some pictures ;)

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Looks like you just volunteered big breeder LoL

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I feel I stated my case clearly and concisely. Deborah and Pitt on the Prowl do you have a counter point instead of "BOO HOO" and "Big Boy Pants" as to why posting pictures with no info or title is something you feel is imperative?

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Whether people do or don't, it does not bother me one bit, but I am not one to have a temper tantrum over it either if it did bother me and tell people to STOP posting if there is no info with it, heck I would love for Kev (NERD) to come here and post his stuffs but I guess you probably would not enjoy it as much :rolleyes:

My first thought was NERD!

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Originally Posted by angllady2

While I do occasionally wonder at the stunning photographs of never-before-seen morphs, and wish the breeder would at lest give some hint as to what is in it. To come to a public forum and demand that all breeders MUST tell me exactly what is in each and every snake they photograph or not post the picture is pretty damn arrogant and ignorant.

A breeder who has invested years of time and thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on a new project is not going to want every Tom, Richard, and Harry out there who owns a ball python to start pumping out dozens of identical or similar morphs and flood the market, thus insuring the breeder won't even be able to sell the animals he worked so hard to produce. So why don't you just get down off your damn high horse, and if you want to know what's in one of those never-before-seen morphs, then save up your money and offer to buy one from the breeder and then you'll know what's in it.

Otherwise, stop looking at the pictures and then you won't have anything to complain about, now will you?

Gale

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This happens very rarely with simple recessive mutations as one or two people have the market and have a monster head start and they are releasing a few hets. or possible hets. the first few seasons. Those animals are usually marketed like crazy, Youtube videos, forum postings, an appearance at the big show with a huge NFS sign etc. They also tend to

I am specifically talking about the trend in what looks like the last two - two and a half years to post a snake that was made with easily obtainable genes to just be posted as a photo, no info. I don't get the point, it's not easily replicated and if you are trying to sell the snake and that is why you need a head start...fine, but is that how you sell a one of a kind snake. Just a picture, not even a tidbit of info that it's for sale or a call me?

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Originally Posted by Ransack

I feel I stated my case clearly and concisely. Deborah and Pitt on the Prowl do you have a counter point instead of "BOO HOO" and "Big Boy Pants" as to why posting pictures with no info or title is something you feel is imperative?

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I didn't think I stuttered in my first response to your post so I will make it a little easier.
I am more interested in the looks of the animal more so sometimes than what is in it.
Yes whatever genes make a difference but if the animal itself doesn't jump out at me then what difference does the time to write or read mean?
To questions there is, What is to stop you from sending an email or PM to the seller other than laziness?

This is an age old dilemma that people have been asking breeders to divulge the make up of their projects. The bottom line is that how much information or how little a breeder exposes of a combo is in fact the breeders right and purgative. I can be frustrating for sure, it's like not being able to see inside you Christmas presents. You get to see the size shape and even hear it rattle but you have to wait to see what makes it all the things it is. Doesn't mean you're not excited to see them wrapped under the tree.

As far as buying the stuff that makes it up..As a breeder why would I want to sell you the less expensive base genes knowing how to make what I make when I can sell you the finished product and let you reverse engineer it for yourself. Of course you're looking at this from the customers stand-point. Look at it from the breeders if I make a really awesome combo why in the name of all things holy would I want my competition (which since you want to make them you become) like NERD, RDR, ect knowing what it takes to make that. It's counter productive to provide my competition the key to my success much more so than not marketing to potential customers..

To be honest, I don't like teaser pictures either, also withholding breeding records on high profile issues, but I am almost as much interested in the genetics than the actual looks of the animal, so info withholding is very frustrating to me. However the breeder has every right to show what they want and give w/e info they want. I also have the right to not buy anything from them and not support it, I have used that right a couple times. So don't step on their rights and embrace yours.

I understand what you're saying but to me it sounds like you're confusing teaser pics (which are just that) for, for sale pics. I have never seen a any breeder list an animal for sale without stating what it was no matter the gene count.

Here's a 5 gene animal, I won't say what's in it, but you can have it for $5k LOL... Never seen that.

I personally like the pictures breeders post, it makes me think about what is put in it, and it makes me strive to try and make one, one day.

Regardless, I find this thread interesting *grabs popcorn*.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

I understand what you're saying but to me it sounds like you're confusing teaser pics (which are just that) for, for sale pics. I have never seen a any breeder list an animal for sale without stating what it was no matter the gene count.

Here's a 5 gene animal, I won't say what's in it, but you can have it for $5k LOL... Never seen that.

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Thanks for the reply. I believe they have the right to post as many teaser pictures as they want and be as proud of the animals as they want. What I have been stating the entire time is I know it doesn't cause interest beyond what a few hours or days and makes no sales sense.

Because what are you pushing? I guess if it's just to show off (which is AWESOME if done with some savvy) and your intention is not to spark interest and fresh excitement in the hobby or make sales OK. What head start are you really getting on a co dom combo? What market is there to corner, what if you don't hit on it next season and beyond.

Why not take that opportunity to explain this is the cool animal you produced (be it an uncommon morph or world first) and this is how you did it, here is the story and the pairing and why don't you add the animals to your collection if you already don't have all the genes involved because it is an awesome project with allot of potential

A larger breeder posted an animal as a teaser, I knew exactly what it was (readily available genetics), I complimented the animal profusely asked if the breeder hatched any more or what the clutch consisted of (I had honest sales interest, I was a shopper) and if he thought that other examples of the morph would always look like that or if his opinion was it was an exceptional example (it was a three gene animal)...nothing, no answer. I really wasn't insulted, just vexed. I don't get it.

Basically the teaser picture to me doesn't spark good word of mouth and ultimately confuses more than it excites or informs.

(Teaser pics) Stop your crying. They don't have to tell you anything and in most cases wont. Breeders spend years proving out something and they shouldn't have to tell you how they got there. Don't like it? Tuff :tears:

(For Sale) I have yet to see this problem and almost every snake I see for sale tell you what it is. So I see no problem here.

I got to ask, how long have you been breeding? Or do you breed? What kind of money do you have tied up in your snakes? How many YEARS have you been working on a project? And you think you should have to tell everyone how you got to that said pattern and color? Maybe you should stick to dogs and cats :gj:

Maybe they don't want do divulge their "secret" recipe to the public. ;)

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Originally Posted by 200xth

While we're making demands, I want a pony.

If you're not happy with the advertising don't click, don't buy? Or am I missing something?

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**throws rattle out of his pram**

Right! That's it!!

If he's getting a pony I demand a banana! :taz:

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Originally Posted by dr del

**throws rattle out of his pram**

Right! That's it!!

If he's getting a pony I demand a banana! :taz:

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http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m...079348893.jpeg

:D

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Originally Posted by dr del

**throws rattle out of his pram**

Right! That's it!!

If he's getting a pony I demand a banana! :taz:

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Wish Granted!!!!!
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :banana::banana::banana::banana:

**happy sniffle**

I am positively swimming in 'nanas. :salute:

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Originally Posted by Slip

(Teaser pics) Point 1: Stop your crying. They don't have to tell you anything and in most cases wont. Breeders spend years proving out something and they shouldn't have to tell you how they got there. Don't like it? Tuff :tears:

(For Sale) I have yet to see this problem and almost every snake I see for sale tell you what it is. So I see no problem here.

I got to ask, how long have you been breeding? Or do you breed? What kind of money do you have tied up in your snakes? How many YEARS have you been working on a project? And you think you should have to tell everyone how you got to that said pattern and color? Maybe you should stick to dogs and cats :gj:

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On Point 1: I really don't have the time anymore to go over this, the point I made is not being paid attention. I am not crying. I have been talking the entire time about proper marketing and public relations for a breeder that is selling snakes as a main source of income. The "teaser" pick makes no sense and your argument makes no sense.

If the breeder proved out a new unknown gene they literally control the market, they are setting supply and demand with the progress of the project. That really hardly ever comes up. Also on that same point, what fool spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a project and then keeps it a secret? Does that even happen? What's the plan for making the investment in time and money back?

On your question of how long I've been breeding and what I have invested. I have been keeping snakes for about 25 years. I used to keep mainly morelia (75% Diamond/Carpet crosses from Pete Kuhn and Jungles from the Barkers) and the old liasis complex (Water, D'Alberts, Olive, Ringed Pythons etc.) I worked with epicrates on the boa side and had some morph boa stuff all hets from Ralph Davis and Pete Kahl (who sold me the meanest snake I have ever owned a striped female boa 66% het albino way back when)

Right now I only have asperations to be a hobbiest breeder of Ball Pythons and breed what I like and I have thousands invested in Ball Pythons, not even tens or hundreds of thousands.

Why does it matter to you what other breeders do with their projects? If it's working out as badly as you say they are then they would try a different marketing strategy or go out of business. I don't see why you're trying to make other people's businesses your own.

Hi again. :)

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Originally Posted by Ransack

If the breeder proved out a new unknown gene they literally control the market, they are setting supply and demand with the progress of the project. That really hardly ever comes up. Also on that same point, what fool spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a project and then keeps it a secret? Does that even happen? What's the plan for making the investment in time and money back?

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If it is a single unknown gene then not letting on gives them more time to spread it into other gene combo's. If there is also something unusual in it like wobbles, kinks, some odd sex linked thing, then it also lets you explore that and see if it can be countered. Basically silence lets you always stay one step ahead of the customers ( now competitors ) for longer.

If it is a combo that produces a simply amazing snake however then you have to worry people might bypass buying from you completely and just make their own if they know what is in it. Again staying quiet on the genetics lets you get a generation or two ahead and makes more money for the breeder in the long run. Ralph Davis used this recently with the Flatline - a combination and a new gene all at the same time ( I think - I have no special info or anything ). If it is then when it finally comes out it will raise the price of the new gene tremendously compared to him just going "Ta-daaa! it's a ..... " In the meantime he can produce more and have them sitting in his racks ready to sell at the new, higher, price.

Occasionally rumours surface about unexpected things like allelic genes as well that could muddy the market. For ages there were persistant rumours that toffees and candys were allelic with lavender albinos - it turned out they aren't but are allelic with regular albinos. Now, if that had come out at the start, how many people would have bought a pair of toffees when they could have bought a het toffee and a, cheap as chips, albino and produce an animal that looked almost the same?

That also raises the spectre of dishonesty - an unscrupulous breeder could have sold toffinos as toffees and nobody would know until some of that animals hatchlings don't colour up as they age. By which time some of them could have been sold. It certainly put me off when thinking about getting into the project once it all came out.

How many people bought Deserts not knowing the females couldn't breed? Would they have bought them if they had known?

So as I see it there are a few reasons, some honest and some not, for secrecy in the hobby.

Not pleasant to think about but there it is.


dr del

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...2ea67146d8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ransack

If the breeder proved out a new unknown gene they literally control the market, they are setting supply and demand with the progress of the project. That really hardly ever comes up. Also on that same point, what fool spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a project and then keeps it a secret? Does that even happen? What's the plan for making the investment in time and money back?

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The kind of fool who isn't ready to reveal it yet? If I invest 10k in a project, I want to be sure I can earn it back plus some. If I only produce a handful of animals and decide "Ah well, I can reveal what I have, sell some examples, and start getting my money back", and the next thing I know there are half a dozen other people selling what I produced and undercutting me and each other, and I've only earned back half of what I've invested as the price I wanted to sell for has crashed. I jumped the gun, and now I have to pay for it.

If I make something cool, of course I'm going to want to share it, even if I'm keeping it it's brand new and I'm keeping it for myself. For me, the point of a teaser pic would be more of a "Hey, I'm working on a really cool secret project, this is what you might be able to expect from me in the coming years". At the same time, I'm certainly not giving out any more information than that until I'm ready to sell. When I'm ready, I'll be ready, and have a nice head start on the rest of the market as far as production of something new, which I deserve for producing it. I'm not about to sacrifice my hard earned head start just to satisfy someones curiosity. Knowing my own habits, if I posted anything besides a picture I would give too much away...

Bottom line; breeders get excited. They still need to come out with a profit, so I wouldn't expect to have the process broken down for anyone who asks (which is bad business any way you look at it).

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Originally Posted by JPR

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...2ea67146d8.jpg

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What is that!?! Tell me all about it!!!!:O

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Originally Posted by KMG

What is that!?! Tell me all about it!!!!:O

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No. It's a super secret mystery ball. none shall know. But I'll tell you one thing : Al buys no in she.

Hilarious thread.... How to shoot yourself in the face..... Lesson... Why use a hundred stupid words... When a handful would suffice?
How about "could any breeder posting a photo of their latest morph, please remember to tell us what it is"

Telling people to kill themselves is not cool.

Who's telling someone to kill them self?

"How to shoot yourself in the face" -supergeeman

Or did you mean something else? The wording is a bit weird.

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Originally Posted by supergeeman

Hilarious thread.... How to shoot yourself in the face..... Lesson... Why use a hundred stupid words... When a handful would suffice?
How about "could any breeder posting a photo of their latest morph, please remember to tell us what it is"

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No its OK. I received the standard internet anonymity responses of "shove it, your a stupid face." I received and read a couple of well thought out responses as well, actual debate. This was always open for debate. Basically the overall consensus is "the breeders do want they want" which was always fine by me. Later.

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Originally Posted by Zephyr

"How to shoot yourself in the face" -supergeeman

Or did you mean something else? The wording is a bit weird.

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Yes of course I did.... Its similar to "shot myself in the foot" both found in the "urban dictionary"... Maybe I should have gone with foot....[emoji5] Basically it means you've said or done something that has blown up in your face etc....

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Originally Posted by supergeeman

Yes of course I did.... Its similar to "shot myself in the foot" both found in the "urban dictionary"... Maybe I should have gone with foot....[emoji5] Basically it means you've said or done something that has blown up in your face etc....

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Oh ok. My apologies :)

No problem

Here's the problem with this thread Ransack... The problem isn't with the point you're trying to make, the problem is with the tone you used in your very first post. Intentional or not, the tone you set was one of a spoiled, self-righteous pre-teen stomping their foot and demanding that the world conform to their wishes.

After that, genuine debate and discussion about the topic you wished to raise is VERY difficult to achieve because everyone is reading what you say with that first tone in their ears.

As Chief Editor of The Reptile Report, I find it very challenging to run across gorgeous ball python photos (or any other animal for that matter, this doesn't happen just with ball pythons) that I'd like to share, but I don't know anything about. All I can say is, "Here's a great looking ball python" which isn't very helpful. Honestly, except for exceptionally stunning animals, I will pass on nice pictures that have no information attached to them.

BUT...people are going to do what they want to do regardless of what any of the rest of us think about it or wish they'd do.

I would suggest that if you want to have a discussion about profitable and efficacious marketing techniques, you quit this thread and start a fresh one with a more reasonable tone that invites people to have that discussion rather than throwing up walls against what sounds like a toddler tantrum.

JLC, Thank You. I admit the original post was too frank. It doesn't come across as a tantrum in my opinion, but I apologize for the "in your face" tone. I am always very interested in the market and love debate on things that could be done different or better.