Normal x Normal breeding

So the discussion has arisen regarding normal x normal breeding, frankly I don't see an issue with it. Reason being I won't force a beginner to purchase anything over $100, yes it's a business but they are people that would suffice paying $25 for an animal just because it's a snake. I personally have only breed normal x normal... Why? Because as a breeder new to the game, I am in no hurry to shell out hundreds for trial and error egg experiments. Once I've gotten the hang then I'll make the plunge. I also strongly think normals have earned their place in this game. Would love to see the comments on my view as well as the views of others.

I thought that only happened in the wild :).

Kidding aside, your reasoning is sound. It is a good trial and there will always be a market for normal pythons.

sure, normals do have a part in this market, but i dont see how you can compete with the african breeding farms.

if based in the USA, how are you supposed to compete with a wholesale price of 7-10 dollars per hatchling? could you ever undercut that price? can you compete with a breeding farm that doesnt need rhodents or electricity? the BPs go out and hunt at night, and there is no reason to heat anything, and you can incubate in big buckets of wood shavings.

many farmers provide hiding places for the BPs to be safe during the day, and pull and incubate clutches, with the main purpose of fighting the rhodents on the farm. and when they have many rhodents and no financial trouble, they let all the hatchlings go free. and when the rhodents are properly under control and some extra money would be nice, they sell their hatchlings to a cooperative. i dont see how the western way of BP breeding, with tubs and thermostats and incubators and associated rhodent breeding, can compete with the african way of doing it.

the only advantage western breeders have is the morphs.

so, from a purely economic point of view, there seems to be no way to even come close to black numbers with normal to normal breedings. you cannot compete with the african farmer who actually makes a profit by occasionally selling a bag of hatchlings for 3-5 dollars per piece, and the african cooperative that actually makes a profit by exporting them in large shipments for 7-10 dollars per piece. of course there is a healthy wholesale market for normals hatchlings in the USA that you can easily tap into, but its pretty much stuck at around 20-25 dollars per piece.


so, no problem with breeding normal to normal, except that your wallet wont like it.

You're assuming that OP is selling his normal hatchlings. I will likely give mine away to local friends who have expressed interest in getting a BP after learning about and handling mine. The snake will go with the stipulation that if/when it is no longer wanted, it gets returned to me.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

Why? Because as a breeder new to the game, I am in no hurry to shell out hundreds for trial and error egg experiments.

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I've never understood this. It's not rocket science. There are just a few very, VERY basic conditions that need to met and nature does the rest. No experimenting is necessary...you're not doing anything new. Single gene morphs are also dirt cheap so you could be producing 2 gene babies with very little money invested...:confusd:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

You're assuming that OP is selling his normal hatchlings. I will likely give mine away to local friends who have expressed interest in getting a BP after learning about and handling mine. The snake will go with the stipulation that if/when it is no longer wanted, it gets returned to me.

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well, yes, my post assumes that its either professional breeding, or being done with the goal of having the hobby pay for itself at least partially ^^

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Originally Posted by sho220

I've never understood this. It's not rocket science. There are just a few very, VERY basic conditions that need to met and nature does the rest. No experimenting is necessary...you're not doing anything new. Single gene morphs are also dirt cheap so you could be producing 2 gene babies with very little money invested...:confusd:

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Honestly, I don't even think you should a lot of experimenting unless you're pretty familiar with the incubation process and have a really good idea of what needs to be tweaked to make for a more successful incubation period. But a lot of the most common methods of incubation are pretty tried and true so there's a reason why they're used by so many, because they work!

Anyway personally don't see the point in a normalxnormal breeding because like Pythonfriend said, there's a lot of market competition in that department and chances are, with many morphxmorph pairings you'll be getting some normals anyway. But I also am a bit concerned with the premise of such a pairing because are you breeding because you can or because you should? I think there's a lot of people in the hobby who breed their snakes just because they happen to have these snakes and in the end that usually only accomplishes in flooding the market, it's kind of purposeless. Honestly, I really only think that people should be breeding their animals if said animals are of the highest quality and are going to be actively improving the genepool, both in health and appearance.

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Originally Posted by MisterKyte

Honestly, I don't even think you should a lot of experimenting unless you're pretty familiar with the incubation process and have a really good idea of what needs to be tweaked to make for a more successful incubation period. But a lot of the most common methods of incubation are pretty tried and true so there's a reason why they're used by so many, because they work!

Anyway personally don't see the point in a normalxnormal breeding because like Pythonfriend said, there's a lot of market competition in that department and chances are, with many morphxmorph pairings you'll be getting some normals anyway. But I also am a bit concerned with the premise of such a pairing because are you breeding because you can or because you should? I think there's a lot of people in the hobby who breed their snakes just because they happen to have these snakes and in the end that usually only accomplishes in flooding the market, it's kind of purposeless. Honestly, I really only think that people should be breeding their animals if said animals are of the highest quality and are going to be actively improving the genepool, both in health and appearance.

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Agree with all that. I don't see the point either unless you're trying to prove out a dinker. People have been breeding the crap out of anything they can get their hands on for years, just for the sake of breeding, which is why prices are in the dumper. For years, people have had the mindset of just cranking out as many clutches as possible, year after year, with almost no thought going into the pairings...

First off a few things I should clarify.

1. I live in the caribbean and can easily hatch a clutch at room temperature.

2. I do sell all my babies.

3. Since import laws restrict importation of snakes to zoos I make $US 300 per normal baby and yes I have morphs but for my private collection only. Unlike those in the US, my market isn't saturated.

To the poster that said not much experimenting can be done, do you know eggs can get laid upside down? Yes there is an upside to a bp egg, which you can safely roll right side up within the first few hours of being laid. Now ask yourself... maybe that explains healthy eggs suddenly dying during incubation. Want to experiment with that on a morph x morph pairing clutch?

With that said my OP refered to the US economy.

I accept all feedback so far and respect each opinion.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

To the poster that said not much experimenting can be done, do you know eggs can get laid upside down? Yes there is an upside to a bp egg, which you can safely roll right side up within the first few hours of being laid. Now ask yourself... maybe that explains healthy eggs suddenly dying during incubation. Want to experiment with that on a morph x morph pairing clutch?

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That experiment has already been done...

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Egg-Experiment

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Originally Posted by sho220

That experiment has already been done...

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Egg-Experiment

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Thanks for bringing that to my attention. My point for mentioning it was simply to say why risk it with a morph x morph pairing. Normals are already classified inferior.

Someone mentioned hurting the pocket with cheap animals... I only feed my adults on chicks, which i get for free at my local hatchery i also dont use any form of heat and newspaper bedding... my monthly damage? $0

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Originally Posted by Peoples

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. My point for mentioning it was simply to say why risk it with a morph x morph pairing. Normals are already classified inferior.

Someone mentioned hurting the pocket with cheap animals... I only feed my adults on chicks, which i get for free at my local hatchery i also dont use any form of heat and newspaper bedding... my monthly damage? $0

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I'm not sure "inferior" is the most appropriate term. I sure wouldn't want a rack full of normals, but that's not necessarily because they're normals. I also wouldn't want a rack full of Pastels, or Pieds, or Clowns, etc. Variety is the spice of life...or something like that...:D That's what I love about all the different mutations...

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Originally Posted by Peoples

First off a few things I should clarify.

1. I live in the caribbean and can easily hatch a clutch at room temperature.

2. I do sell all my babies.

3. Since import laws restrict importation of snakes to zoos I make $US 300 per normal baby and yes I have morphs but for my private collection only. Unlike those in the US, my market isn't saturated.

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import restrictions are REAL GAME CHANGERS. and zoos hate morphs. Zoos want to show animals exactly like they can be found wild an in nature elsewhere. so you are facing a market situation where a normal fetches 300 dollars, and i applaud you for being smart enough to leverage it! but i think apart from you, this will only apply to maybe 0.1% of forum users here, most users here have no import restrictions and feel the effect of africa imports. (i left out the part about egg-rolling, because, well, apparently it has been conclusively shown that you can roll them ONCE. so you put a mark on the top when you find them, and keep the mark on top from that point onward.)

--------------(different angle)-----------------

i want to clarify: i see ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with breeding normals to normals. breeding normals to normals will not cause problems. the market is saturated because a typical shipment from africa contains somewhere around 1000-5000 ball python hatchlings, the shipping and the paperwork is expensive, and the low prices can only translate into other markets when the shipments are large. and such shipments in the 4-digit size leave africa more than once each week.

you can produce 200 normals each season, it will still not affect the market. for the african exports this means that 200 fewer go to the USA (or wherever you are) each year. they wont even notice it. they send thousands each week, and a year has 52 weeks. the reliability of african exporters, and flippers / movers on all continents, is what makes ball pythons a staple at petco, petsmart, and other chains not just in the USA but around the world.

---------------(different angle)------------------

one thing i would like to talk about is how very different this is for many other species, where there are only two sources: poached, or bred. for these species, a normal may cost 300 dollars minimum, and a captive-bred normal is worth EVEN MORE. a captive bred will be easier to tame and will live longer in captivity, a captive bred is also more likely to reproduce in captivity, because its parents did just that. for many species, captive bred means that it did not grow up in nature, and has not been hunted / trapped / poached. BPs are quite unique in the reptile-world because they live in a semi-domesticated state within their natural range. the exports of thousands of BP hatchlings from africa does not hurt the natural population. this is much different for green tree pythons, for chameleons, frogs, rare geckos, rare turtles, tegus and other large lizards. for many species that are bred, POACHED is the CHEAPEST choice at around 300 dollars, and captive bred normals are much more expensive. in these cases, you can buy some, and if you manage to get them to breed you will make A LOT of money, and i will APPLAUD you for that. its even worse with rare mammals, like lemurs. their cuteness on youtube creates a demand that ends up crushing the wild population.

for example, check this fun video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-nhT88FHfw not so fun when you see the whole picture. damn they are cute. they are so cute that the wild population is being hunted to death, in the worst case poached into the state of "extinct in the wild" if there are breeders, and "extinct" if there are no breeders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMf40ORFE8 :tears: :tears: :tears:

to sum it all up: if you want to do normal to normal breedings, pick a species where accomplishing a normal to normal breeding ACTUALLY MATTERS. breeding a normal BP to a normal BP is not good or bad, it just does not count. it wont affect the market, it wont affect the natural population, it just does nothing. so i disagree with those that say it ruins the market, or that come up with other arguments against it. in Europe or the USA you cannot affect the market by producing 500 normals a year. but in other species, ANY breeding success can bring you lots of money and can actively undercut the prices of poached animals.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

First off a few things I should clarify.
To the poster that said not much experimenting can be done, do you know eggs can get laid upside down? Yes there is an upside to a bp egg, which you can safely roll right side up within the first few hours of being laid. Now ask yourself... maybe that explains healthy eggs suddenly dying during incubation. Want to experiment with that on a morph x morph pairing clutch?

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I don't think that's a situation that really correlates to experimentation though? Most of your eggs are going to be laid the right side up and if they aren't chances are the egg will naturally compensate for the issue itself and will make it to full term so long as it doesn't end up getting flipped again. If the egg isn't able to compensate on its own and the breeder noticed this and flips it the right side up to prevent it from dying then that's just intervention.
There's also a lot of factors that can effect an egg suddenly dying, a lot of factors that would probably only be apparent on the genetic level, so I don't know if I'd consider that explanation a catchall.

This is a very fruitful topic and everyone has valid points, there's is no right or wrong, in my opinion everyone is right from there perspective.

OP's situation is exceptional so it seems ok to produce normals. but in the market i'm in, it's not very wise to do so. most of us have to think about feeding costs, and since the majority of markets are saturated, it's more than likely that the hatchling rack is gonna be full of normals for a long time, many of them probably won't sell at all, and indefinitely feeding a rack full of unsellable snakes is like throwing money down a bottomless pit. if i was to breed snakes and be forced to keep any unsold offspring, i'd rather play with nice morphs and try to produce some combos, ending up with some cool morphs as wells as the inevitable normals.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

I am in no hurry to shell out hundreds for trial and error egg experiments.

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I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

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Couldn't agree more. If you don't do the minimal research it takes to hatch a clutch, whether they're morphs or normals, you deserve a fish slap. :fishslap: Value of the animals shouldn't even enter the equation...it's still unecessary life lost...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

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Wow at least you knew who to stay away from the rest of the reptile show. Seriously what a creep! That's a horrible thing to say to someone. Every life is precious whether it be a normal or the most expensive morph ever. Last night I was thinking about my normal male and how he's in a Proline cage with a lock and it made me giggle that I have a normal male which doesn't have much value to breeding in a cage with a lock while my morphs are in a rack that can easily be opened. I'd be so upset if anything happened to any if my snakes or their clutches! My big normal boy (first snake) has a special place in my heart.

Also the hardest part of setting up a clutch isn't even setting them up it's waiting for them to hatch!! It's not that hard setting a thermostat, and putting eggs in a box and putting it inside another box. The 60 day wait is the hardest. The only thing we would need to practice is patience. 😊


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

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Unfortunately can't relate to your point, a personal preference versus a sales pitch is hardly a comparison... No one wants to lose any babies normal or otherwise, my point was stating that I an going to intentionally put an embryo at risk for the sake of my experiments therefor rather not do it with an egg that contains a potentially substantial return on investment.


In your defense the guy trying to up sell a snake like that would sicken me.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

my point was stating that I an going to intentionally put an embryo at risk for the sake of my experiments therefor rather not do it with an egg that contains a potentially substantial return on investment.

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You completely missed the point and you're arguing exactly the same thing as that breeder at the show.

Why would you put an embryo at risk for an experiment in the first place? Is this a groundbreaking experiment that will change ball python breeding? Why re-invent the wheel?

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Originally Posted by sho220

I don't see the point either unless you're trying to prove out a dinker.

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Just going to point out real quick- there's no point in owning a snake in the first place, much less breeding them. We only do it simply because we want to. :gj:
That all said, here's my quick take on producing normals. I don't see too much wrong with it or why anyone does it, although breeding for "practice" doesn't come off as ethical to me, nor is it necessarily rocket science. It just matters how you go about doing it and how well you plan it out. Most important is that all the surviving babies have somewhere to live at the end of it all. Worst case scenario just means you have to keep all the babies, at least for an extended period of time. Keeping that in mind, not everyone is into genetics and not everyone actively participates or wants to participate in the morph market, and it's not up to everyone to be utter snake nazis and determine what exactly everyone should be allowed to breed. If someone wants to produce just normals or even line breed normals (something I'm heavily considering) then so be it. As long as they can take care of everything in the end.
Also just to note, normals can't be the hardest thing in the world to sell. It just depends on which niche you take up. Normals without morph genes won't have a strong presence and won't sell real well at something like a reptile expo or well known reptile classifieds (ex. kingsnake) which is highly populated by hobby breeders and big league breeders, but they appear to be easier to sell locally and on classifieds such as craigslist (people try- and have- to sold them for as high as $300 here in San Antonio; a $20 normal would be a bargain for the unaware local) as well as wholesale as there is always a demand for someone's first or second cheap pet snake. Essentially the difference between selling ice cream in the summer vs the winter. Again, it's just down to planning and having a good understanding on how well certain things sell and where to sell them. You get all that down and you shouldn't experience problems. There isn't really a need to force someone to keep or breed something like morphs if that isn't what they want to do.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Just going to point out real quick- there's no point in owning a snake in the first place

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I disagree. How about as a learning experience? A way to relax? Because they're fascinating to watch. Because you want a pet but are allergic to the furry kind. You want a pet but live in an apartment that doesn't allow cats or dogs. You want a pet that doesn't require constant attention. I'll stop there...:)

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Originally Posted by sho220

I disagree. How about as a learning experience? A way to relax? Because they're fascinating to watch. Because you want a pet but are allergic to the furry kind. You want a pet but live in an apartment that doesn't allow cats or dogs. You want a pet that doesn't require constant attention. I'll stop there...:)

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Pets don't fall under food, shelter, or water. ;)



...Unless you're eating them. :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Pets don't fall under food, shelter, or water. ;)

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True, but keeping snakes is cheaper than paying a therapist.

I don't think that breeding normals is inferior to breeding morphs, because despite the price discrepancy, they're all beautiful animals. Just different colors. A normal's life is worth just as much to me as my pastel clown's life. They might be way different in monetary value but they're still living animals.

However, I think it would be unwise to breed normals without first looking into the market for potential babies or being willing to keep every single one produced. It has to be understood (with breeding reptiles in general, but less valuable ones for certain) that each animal deserves to be treated respectfully and deserves food and shelter. All of these require time and money, money that will need to be invested by the breeder if there is no market for their offspring. If you are fine with the prospect of keeping and providing for all bred animals, or if you have buyers lined up for them, breed away.

I can see the financial argument in "experiment breeding techniques with normals," but it also strikes me as uncomfortably close to exploiting animals because they have a low value.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Pets don't fall under food, shelter, or water. ;)



...Unless you're eating them. :rolleye2:

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Obviously they're not necessary for basic survival, but that seems like quit a difference than saying there's "no point" in owning them...

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

You completely missed the point and you're arguing exactly the same thing as that breeder at the show.

Why would you put an embryo at risk for an experiment in the first place? Is this a groundbreaking experiment that will change ball python breeding? Why re-invent the wheel?

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My experiments are for my benefit... Ground breaking or not...
have no competition so I see no use for bring morphs, understand my situation is unique therefore your point would be valid in your instance and mine the same for me...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Obviously they're not necessary for basic survival, but that seems like quit a difference than saying there's "no point" in owning them...

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Well, think about it. You don't need a snake any more than you do something else, like a fish. That's what I meant anyway.
But life wouldn't be anywhere near as enjoyable (or tolerable) without them though!

i see how you might start out with breeding BPs that are not too expensive, just to get the routine down and to gain experience.

but you need to treat every BP with respect and treat it properly. you need to aim for perfect results right from the start.

still, there is a case for trying out before you get into truly expensive stuff. big breeders differentiate between good female breeders that produce 7 big eggs, and good female breeders that produce 11 small eggs.

"trying out" can mean both: wild experiments, or just figuring out how a certain female performs. thats another advantage that the really big breeders have: when they drop tens of thousands on a male that has a certain completely new gene/morph, they can pair it up with females that reliably produce a large number of small eggs. trying out different husbandry methods and playing around with husbandry conditions seems questionable to me, because all that is already established.

Pythonfriend husbandry is fine the eggs are the subject of experiment.