Normal x Normal breeding

[Peoples]

That experiment has already been done...

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Egg-Experiment

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. My point for mentioning it was simply to say why risk it with a morph x morph pairing. Normals are already classified inferior.

Someone mentioned hurting the pocket with cheap animals... I only feed my adults on chicks, which i get for free at my local hatchery i also dont use any form of heat and newspaper bedding... my monthly damage? $0

[sho220]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. My point for mentioning it was simply to say why risk it with a morph x morph pairing. Normals are already classified inferior.

Someone mentioned hurting the pocket with cheap animals... I only feed my adults on chicks, which i get for free at my local hatchery i also dont use any form of heat and newspaper bedding... my monthly damage? $0

I'm not sure "inferior" is the most appropriate term. I sure wouldn't want a rack full of normals, but that's not necessarily because they're normals. I also wouldn't want a rack full of Pastels, or Pieds, or Clowns, etc. Variety is the spice of life...or something like that... That's what I love about all the different mutations...

[Pythonfriend]

First off a few things I should clarify.

1. I live in the caribbean and can easily hatch a clutch at room temperature.

2. I do sell all my babies.

3. Since import laws restrict importation of snakes to zoos I make $US 300 per normal baby and yes I have morphs but for my private collection only. Unlike those in the US, my market isn't saturated.

import restrictions are REAL GAME CHANGERS. and zoos hate morphs. Zoos want to show animals exactly like they can be found wild an in nature elsewhere. so you are facing a market situation where a normal fetches 300 dollars, and i applaud you for being smart enough to leverage it! but i think apart from you, this will only apply to maybe 0.1% of forum users here, most users here have no import restrictions and feel the effect of africa imports. (i left out the part about egg-rolling, because, well, apparently it has been conclusively shown that you can roll them ONCE. so you put a mark on the top when you find them, and keep the mark on top from that point onward.)

--------------(different angle)-----------------

i want to clarify: i see ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with breeding normals to normals. breeding normals to normals will not cause problems. the market is saturated because a typical shipment from africa contains somewhere around 1000-5000 ball python hatchlings, the shipping and the paperwork is expensive, and the low prices can only translate into other markets when the shipments are large. and such shipments in the 4-digit size leave africa more than once each week.

you can produce 200 normals each season, it will still not affect the market. for the african exports this means that 200 fewer go to the USA (or wherever you are) each year. they wont even notice it. they send thousands each week, and a year has 52 weeks. the reliability of african exporters, and flippers / movers on all continents, is what makes ball pythons a staple at petco, petsmart, and other chains not just in the USA but around the world.

---------------(different angle)------------------

one thing i would like to talk about is how very different this is for many other species, where there are only two sources: poached, or bred. for these species, a normal may cost 300 dollars minimum, and a captive-bred normal is worth EVEN MORE. a captive bred will be easier to tame and will live longer in captivity, a captive bred is also more likely to reproduce in captivity, because its parents did just that. for many species, captive bred means that it did not grow up in nature, and has not been hunted / trapped / poached. BPs are quite unique in the reptile-world because they live in a semi-domesticated state within their natural range. the exports of thousands of BP hatchlings from africa does not hurt the natural population. this is much different for green tree pythons, for chameleons, frogs, rare geckos, rare turtles, tegus and other large lizards. for many species that are bred, POACHED is the CHEAPEST choice at around 300 dollars, and captive bred normals are much more expensive. in these cases, you can buy some, and if you manage to get them to breed you will make A LOT of money, and i will APPLAUD you for that. its even worse with rare mammals, like lemurs. their cuteness on youtube creates a demand that ends up crushing the wild population.

for example, check this fun video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-nhT88FHfw not so fun when you see the whole picture. damn they are cute. they are so cute that the wild population is being hunted to death, in the worst case poached into the state of "extinct in the wild" if there are breeders, and "extinct" if there are no breeders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTMf40ORFE8

to sum it all up: if you want to do normal to normal breedings, pick a species where accomplishing a normal to normal breeding ACTUALLY MATTERS. breeding a normal BP to a normal BP is not good or bad, it just does not count. it wont affect the market, it wont affect the natural population, it just does nothing. so i disagree with those that say it ruins the market, or that come up with other arguments against it. in Europe or the USA you cannot affect the market by producing 500 normals a year. but in other species, ANY breeding success can bring you lots of money and can actively undercut the prices of poached animals.

[MisterKyte]

First off a few things I should clarify.
To the poster that said not much experimenting can be done, do you know eggs can get laid upside down? Yes there is an upside to a bp egg, which you can safely roll right side up within the first few hours of being laid. Now ask yourself... maybe that explains healthy eggs suddenly dying during incubation. Want to experiment with that on a morph x morph pairing clutch?

I don't think that's a situation that really correlates to experimentation though? Most of your eggs are going to be laid the right side up and if they aren't chances are the egg will naturally compensate for the issue itself and will make it to full term so long as it doesn't end up getting flipped again. If the egg isn't able to compensate on its own and the breeder noticed this and flips it the right side up to prevent it from dying then that's just intervention.
There's also a lot of factors that can effect an egg suddenly dying, a lot of factors that would probably only be apparent on the genetic level, so I don't know if I'd consider that explanation a catchall.

[Peoples]

This is a very fruitful topic and everyone has valid points, there's is no right or wrong, in my opinion everyone is right from there perspective.

[J.P.]

OP's situation is exceptional so it seems ok to produce normals. but in the market i'm in, it's not very wise to do so. most of us have to think about feeding costs, and since the majority of markets are saturated, it's more than likely that the hatchling rack is gonna be full of normals for a long time, many of them probably won't sell at all, and indefinitely feeding a rack full of unsellable snakes is like throwing money down a bottomless pit. if i was to breed snakes and be forced to keep any unsold offspring, i'd rather play with nice morphs and try to produce some combos, ending up with some cool morphs as wells as the inevitable normals.

[Mr. Misha]

I am in no hurry to shell out hundreds for trial and error egg experiments.

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

[sho220]

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

Couldn't agree more. If you don't do the minimal research it takes to hatch a clutch, whether they're morphs or normals, you deserve a fish slap. Value of the animals shouldn't even enter the equation...it's still unecessary life lost...

[AlexisFitzy]

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

Wow at least you knew who to stay away from the rest of the reptile show. Seriously what a creep! That's a horrible thing to say to someone. Every life is precious whether it be a normal or the most expensive morph ever. Last night I was thinking about my normal male and how he's in a Proline cage with a lock and it made me giggle that I have a normal male which doesn't have much value to breeding in a cage with a lock while my morphs are in a rack that can easily be opened. I'd be so upset if anything happened to any if my snakes or their clutches! My big normal boy (first snake) has a special place in my heart.

Also the hardest part of setting up a clutch isn't even setting them up it's waiting for them to hatch!! It's not that hard setting a thermostat, and putting eggs in a box and putting it inside another box. The 60 day wait is the hardest. The only thing we would need to practice is patience. 😊


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[Peoples]

I've heard this argument before at the last reptile show I attended and it makes me disgusted. A guy was trying to convince me to buy his full grown normals so I can "practice" breeding and as he put it "if you screw up, it won't be a big deal". Personally, I'd feel pretty damn bad whether I kill a clutch of normals or a clutch of whatever morph you want to fill in the blank with. It's sad this kind of mentality exists in the hobby world.

If you try to argue that it's worse killing an expensive clutch than a normal clutch, you missed the point.

Unfortunately can't relate to your point, a personal preference versus a sales pitch is hardly a comparison... No one wants to lose any babies normal or otherwise, my point was stating that I an going to intentionally put an embryo at risk for the sake of my experiments therefor rather not do it with an egg that contains a potentially substantial return on investment.


In your defense the guy trying to up sell a snake like that would sicken me.