Prices down?

Why are hatchling prices so low right now? I am really unwilling to comply with these rock bottom prices. I would rather hold them. What is going on?

That's just the market. I'm getting spiders at 30m/40f and pastels at 15m/f mystics 100m/f cinnamon and Mojos 30m/50f... And the bad part is it doesn't matter if you want to comply or not prices will keep dropping and your just going to get stuck with males. Nothing personal just business

Stick to your guns on fair prices. Once people dump their stock below market you will have a better chance at getting your asking price.

Value your animals and do not give them away for wholesale prices to the public.

Don't if you don't want to, but probably most importantly, don't advertise low prices. Maybe take low ball offers if you really need to move them and even say that you are open to offers, but it's those people that advertise their rock bottom prices that mess up the market for everyone.

this is always a problem, year after year. does not matter the gene. someone always tanks the market, then everyone matches to move their animals. if you feel your animal is worth $200 reasonably, then hold your price, what is a year feeding $50. so you got $150 less its feeding, $100 if you add in upkeep. most of the tankers don't want to put $50 of food down a $200, $2,000, or a $$20k animals gullet. this is the reason. market prices suck. hold true and it will be worth it. your animals will be better in the long run anyway.

The people that are looking for the cheapest snake that they can find are not the ones I want to sell one of my animals to anyway. People that are willing to pay a little more for quality generally take better care of their animals. Those that say "it's just business" obviously don't care who gets a snake, as long as they get their money. I do care. I want each one of mine to go to a healthy loving home. If someone tells me that they are willing to buy one of my pastels for $10, then I don't make a sale. If they are only able to afford a $10 pastel, how are they going to be able to afford to take proper care of it?

Stick with the prices you feel comfortable with. You may have to hold on to it for a while, but it's worth it in the end, not only worth it for you, but for the animal as well.

Omg I'm so glad you posted this! There have been a couple threads along these lines but a lot of people have been saying that it's just basic economics and that's what it's "supposed" to do. So I'm glad to hear that others are standing firm on their pricing because I am too! Just because it's economical doesn't mean it's necessarily right or should be supported. My animals lives are worth so much more to me than $10 or whatever dirt cheap price people think is "fair". It's just not right. And I also agree with if someone doesn't think that the asking price is fair and starts offering $10 - $50 for it, how in the world are you supposed to buy an enclosure, hides, substrate, water bowl, thermostat, heat pad, hydrometer, FOOD, and possible VET COSTS!! They are going to be keeping this animal for up to 30 years. That's 30 years of food and maintenance and if they are not willing to pay the couple hundred dollars that they are worth than idk how they expect to be able to pay for it's care. This aggravates me to no end and when I told people that it wasn't right and that I'm never going to sell my animals that cheap EVER I got reprimanded for it. I think it's pure insanity. So glad that other feel the way I do, and that some people see that the lives of there animals are worth so much more to them than a couple of lousy bucks!


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Prices are just prices. I nearly shot myself in the foot last year when I was going to pay $800 for a champagne female and at the last Tinley show they were 200-400. Prices go down over time, as with supply and demand. There will always be people who will lowball prices, wether they be in a hardship in life and they just need to move there animals, or they just seek greed. It's the way it is. I've always seen sales fall in to two category's, pets and breeding. A high quality breeder will always sale for more than a low quality pet but in the end, the seller is the one who sets the initial price, and the buyer will than negotiate.

Thank you. I am glad to hear others agree with me here. It is crazy how a $600 morph in Spring this year went to a $400 morph in the Summer and is now listed by some on fauna for $250! Crazy. Even the prices of females are awful.

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Originally Posted by mikeandsheleen

The people that are looking for the cheapest snake that they can find are not the ones I want to sell one of my animals to anyway. People that are willing to pay a little more for quality generally take better care of their animals. Those that say "it's just business" obviously don't care who gets a snake, as long as they get their money. I do care. I want each one of mine to go to a healthy loving home. If someone tells me that they are willing to buy one of my pastels for $10, then I don't make a sale. If they are only able to afford a $10 pastel, how are they going to be able to afford to take proper care of it?

Stick with the prices you feel comfortable with. You may have to hold on to it for a while, but it's worth it in the end, not only worth it for you, but for the animal as well.

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X2
^Right fricken there!!!
What I have been saying all along. If you breed for quality your animals will always be worth more than than those that are the reptile equivalent of puppy mills.
Less valuable animals such as the $10 pastel postulated above I would be more inclined to sell as a package deal. A full tank or tub set-up that is appropriate for the animal with the animal essentially free. You make the money on the set-up and the buyer then has invested enough that you can be reasonably sure they will be motivated to care for the animal. Plus, you know the set-up is good because you did it yourself.

Let's face it, most breeders are not looking for single gene males period except for high end or hard to find genes. And, if the gene has been around awhile most single gene males are pretty much considered "pet only" value wise or very slightly above. Like it or not the couple hundred dollar GHI day is coming, those that won't be burned by it are the ones breeding exceptional quality animals and good combo's which will always hold a higher value.

People have a habit of over-valuing what they have i.e. buying a $5K snake and growing it out and forgetting that in the year or two they had zero production from that animal others have been producing animals with the same gene reducing the demand and therefore the "value". If you can pull $3K a snake off that gene your first year people seem to not realise that the animal you bought has already paid for itself and its' upkeep in that single year and then some. It is not a $2K loss in any way shape or form.

Simple, supply and demand is showing you that we have far far too many breeders for far too few customers.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Simple, supply and demand is showing you that we have far far too many breeders for far too few customers.

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Ya know I understand this. Coming from showing and breeding GSD it is a completely different world.
With dogs people are told not to breed just to satisfy curiosity (I want an offspring of my great pet dog, witness the miracle of birth, etc).
Here it seems every time someone has a normal that's a lil different they are told to breed it and see what pops out.
Not saying it's wrong but if everyone and their brother are breeding these snakes prices are bound to drop

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I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment, so no one shoot me for it...

What about those of us who are willing to sit on prices because we have quality animals but we are new to breeding. Are you saying people SHOULDN'T be breeding just to breed and we should monopolize the people that have made a real business out of it already? Don't we all have to start somewhere?

I understand that more breeders = more animals = less demand = less cost for the animal. However, I don't think it's fair to group ALL new breeders into the category of people who shouldn't be breeding. For example, this last season was my very first season. I bred my animals because I love them and I love genetics. I didn't do it for the money or just to breed. However, I don't personally feel like I shouldn't be breeding just because someone on the forum said not to so prices go back up.

I hope that makes some sense. although I agree with much that is being said, being a new breeder kinda puts me in an awkward position in this discussion so I wanted to just throw out the other side of the argument. There are two types of new breeders: ones who care and ones who are in it to make a buck. I think all of what yall are saying applies to those who just want to make a buck. But for those of us who are new and DO care, I don't think we should be lumped into the same category.

I'll second that, BHRep. I am also new to breeding (so new, in fact, that I haven't even started--and won't for another year yet!). I have been watching prices plummet year after year (it's particularly bad for corns, where the cost of shipping is oft times more than the snak itself!), and I know that I very well may not be able to home my snakes for the prices that I value them at in the coming years. But I won't lower them to the general market for sure (I do plan on having certain deals for both children and teachers--I want people to be educated about these animals, not fear them. But that's a different story.), even if that means sitting on them until I find the right buyer.

But I'm not in this for the money. I have very particular goals for breeding, and hope to better the animals I work with. I would like to make a line of stargazer-free sunkissed corns, for example. As I get more and more interested in ball pythons, I find I would love to try to breed out their problems as well--make a wobble-free spider line, fix the whole mess of problems with the super black pastels and cinnies. I, too, am a lover of genetics, and of puzzles. :3

I hold myself to high standards--in care, tracking, feeding, etc--because I want to produce quality animals. I have no name to ride on; in the future, I'm going to have to convince people to buy from me in a flooded market. It won't be easy, but it'll be a whole hell of a lotta fun, and I'm looking forward to not only working with the animals, but meeting other crazy herpers like me. :P

So, no, I don't think every new breeder is going to trip up the market; but I think they didn't mean it that way, either. At any rate, please don't hate us newcomers--if anything, teach us. :D

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any new breeders, without them the hobby would die out. But if 10 people by x normal and it looks a lil different, people say... well breed it and find out... that's probably 5 people who are gonna go out and do it that had no intention of breeding before because curiosity over rides the fact that it is probably just a normal.
I hope you see what I am saying. Plus there are the ones who only see $$$ signs and normally get out of it pretty quick

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I always look through the craigslist and am amused of how everyone will ask a large amout of money for a normal BP. I just saw one on there that was asking for $200 for a 3 month old normal plus 1 hide, 1 water bowl and a heat light. AND the tank had a crack in it. They were saying it was a value of over $300 and the snake was $150 alone.

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Originally Posted by ROACH

I always look through the craigslist and am amused of how everyone will ask a large amout of money for a normal BP. I just saw one on there that was asking for $200 for a 3 month old normal plus 1 hide, 1 water bowl and a heat light. AND the tank had a crack in it. They were saying it was a value of over $300 and the snake was $150 alone.

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Most likely because that's how much the big box store charged for the snake + setup.

At the MA expo yesterday, very few people were having sales of BPs. The prices were so low on some animals - just crazy. I was guilty of very low prices myself, yet sold nothing. People panic when they can't sell anything and drop their prices until people see a deal that is 'too good to pass up.' Facebook sales and Auctions are having a negative impact on the prices of animals - NERD's auction of a Lesser Enchi male finished at 300 bucks last night. People see that and think that's the new market price for the combo... very volatile. I think right at the end of the season here is when this happens the most. People who have bred a long time have suggested that if you hold firm on price and wait until the spring, no new animals are hatching and people are hungry to spend holiday cash. I think there is an annual cycle to the prices that we are experiencing the bottom of currently.

For single gene males, these will continue to drop in price indefinitely until all of the basic morphs are in 'pet' range. For a retail store, pet price is around 100 bucks. For expo/breeder and hobbyist markets, that seems to be in the 25-50 range as witnessed with normals going for 25 bucks in the community. There is no good reason why a dirty pastel male would go for more than that eventually since it is unlikely anyone would purchase to breed. Multi-gene combos are pretty clearly the future of the hobby. People breeding combos that result in a lot of single gene animals are in for a rough ride moving forward. Recessives and Homozygous (supers) are a good way to ensure multiple genes on your babies and hopefully help them to command a price that allows them to maintain value higher than the cost of keeping and feeding them.

On the other hand, right now is a great time to add new genes to your breeder stock ;)

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Originally Posted by mikeandsheleen

On the other hand, right now is a great time to add new genes to your breeder stock ;)

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Cup half full...:D It's buyin' time!!!

Cup is always full. Even a half cup of water has a half cup of air, so it is full! We've seen these price drop threads every couple of months. Yet, the market is still robust and new people are coming in every day. Yes, price drops are inevitable but establish your reputation as a quality breeder and you can still do well. I'm not ready to give up.

I picked up a Lesser Platinum female for $250 recently and honestly if I shopped around I think I over paid but, this female had the characteristics I like in Lessers. Besides being the 1st captive bred to tag me this girl has the colour and "pop" that appeals to me. When I get to producing snakes my offerings may not be to everyone's taste and that is okay. What matters is that I produce the best looking snakes that appeal to my tastes and I'll bet there is a market of similarly mind people out there.
Just watch out when I get ahold of some MJ Axanthiics, Clowns and few others I'll shush about for the moment. I may get a 1st or not but I guarantee that I'll get some drool worthy snakes. So, anyone I sell to will also get snakes that are coveted. Maybe it is just my countries market but, high quality and persistence seem to be the 2 key factors in at least paying for our hobby if not also making a bit of a profit.

lots of truth here.

im still in the process of saving up and changing my living situation in order to get my first BPs, and i want very nice looking pets and do intend on future breeding.

im also in the process of figuring out what to start with, and im absolutely not interested in normals (male or female), or single gene males. im also not interested in single-gene females that are too basic. a female pastel or het red axanthic wouldnt do it for me. Normal hets are also losing their appeal, it got to be visual recessives and hets with extra genes.

i agree, that very basic stuff will probarbly sink to the price of normals and bottom out.

i think there is a paradigm shift going on: it used to be that when you breed lets say for firefly, only the normals you get were misses, and the pastels and fires were hits and the firefly was the jackpot.

now its more like: the normals are misses, the male fires and pastels are misses because of their low price and because they are not really interesting for breeding anymore, nice single-gene females can still be considered a hit (people still pay for NICE single gene females as the post above mine illustrates), but really, its just about getting the fireflies.

and medium-sized and big breeders are far ahead and their holdbacks are stuff like lesser pastel leopard clown. stuff like 5-gene codominant/dominant combos, wild super combos, recessives loaded with extra genes, double recessives.

From what I am reading and seeing, there are too many people breeding BPs. I don't have any scientific evidence to back this up, it is just a gut feeling. I see a fair amount of BP, mostly normals, that need homes. My family and I went to a couple shelters this past weekend and we were overwhelmed by the number of cats and dogs waiting to be adopted. I realize BP's are very different than dogs and cats in that they aren't reproducing outside. They are living in tubs and people are putting them together consciously to breed them. So their numbers won't ever be as astronomical as dogs and cats. However, it is evident that people are producing more BP's than the market currently can handle. And this over-production has caused the entry price of a BP to fall dramatically. As others have pointed out, you can get a BP for $20. But proper husbandry and the unforeseen cost so much more. Too many people have snakes (and other pets) as a fad, and then either let the animal suffer, or they move on. In the end, there are a lot of suffering BP's out there. I've seen the ads on craigslist. I've seen them suffering at pet stores. It sucks. I am hoping everyone slows down a little, and thinks about the consequences of bringing a life into this world, even if it is "just a snake," - all animals deserve our best if we are going to bring them into our houses. As for the economics, I do hope the demand slows down, and prices go up. I think that protects the animals somewhat. It becomes something you can't do on a whim if the prices are higher.

BP's are good ambassadors for people with a fear of snakes. We should treat them better.

I think a lot of people are self-indulgent when it comes to BP's. It just so happens that they can be housed in very small spaces very economically. But does that mean we should do it? Probably not. I gotta believe at some number of snakes, the quality of care a snake gets from one person drops off. I understand that the big breeders higher people to clean cages and maintain the general husbandry of the snakes, but for one person I can't imagine having 20 or more BP's. Maybe those people don't have to work, or something. And if their life revolves around the snakes and they are giving them all they need, good. But I gotta think out there, there are BP's being exploited for our own self indulgence. Some people genuinely love all the different colors and patterns but just don't know when to stop. And of course, others are in it for the money. Either way, if the animals well being isn't coming first, then its wrong.

I saw my first BP back in 1995 and I've wanted one since then. I saw my first pied in a Reptiles magazine a few years later - that really made me want a BP. I got my first BP this year. Quite a wait, but so worth it. My intention was to get a HET PIED male and female and breed them to make a pied. But after going to a few reptile shows and doing a lot of reading, it has occurred to me that breeding my BP's is probably not smart. Of course many of you will say since the price of a pied is so low now I should just get one instead of breeding for one.... and you are right. I can't breed. I just can't think of adding to the already flooded world. There are older BP's out there that need good homes. And they are baby normal males getting passed up for "designers." I really like BP's and it is hard to pass them up. But I know my limits. I think we should have a thread that puts the spot light on rescues. I think a good deal of our attention should be on that. As a community of snake lovers, I think a lot of us know the animals deserve better.

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Originally Posted by mikeandsheleen

On the other hand, right now is a great time to add new genes to your breeder stock ;)

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Indeed! Also, I would be curious to see how many people here would still want to breed if every ball python, period, sold for $50 regardless of the genetics of the animal. I, for one, would. I still have the potential to make some world firsts as far as I know with my lemonbacks. Time will tell but I'm looking forward to breeding in the future, and I do it because I want to make my own cool combos! I need to find a high white female pied that is super cheap if a lot of snakes really are selling for super low prices.

Either you sell at current market value, or you hold on long enough to where your profit is dwarfed by your investment.

Unfortunately that is business. And, if you hold back these animals until you feel the "price is right" you will have adults that now are too expensive (by your pricing thoughts) to legitamently sell.

I helped work a booth at a local show this past weekend, and we sold a Pin for $35, pastel females for $40, spiders for $40, and had sugar males marked at $175. No one even gave the sugars a second glance, let alone a first. Pastel sugar male for $500 and a Mojave x Lesser BEL MARKED for $500, those got looks but no one even made an offer on it.

It sucks, it's disheartening, but you sell at these prices now and you hope that other people start getting out.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Indeed! Also, I would be curious to see how many people here would still want to breed if every ball python, period, sold for $50 regardless of the genetics of the animal. I, for one, would. I still have the potential to make some world firsts as far as I know with my lemonbacks. Time will tell but I'm looking forward to breeding in the future, and I do it because I want to make my own cool combos! I need to find a high white female pied that is super cheap if a lot of snakes really are selling for super low prices.

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Ah! This would be fun! Lots of morphs I can't get at the moment that I would like to be able to play with. :D But that's okay, I'll still work up to them.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Either you sell at current market value, or you hold on long enough to where your profit is dwarfed by your investment.

Unfortunately that is business. And, if you hold back these animals until you feel the "price is right" you will have adults that now are too expensive (by your pricing thoughts) to legitamently sell.

I helped work a booth at a local show this past weekend, and we sold a Pin for $35, pastel females for $40, spiders for $40, and had sugar males marked at $175. No one even gave the sugars a second glance, let alone a first. Pastel sugar male for $500 and a Mojave x Lesser BEL MARKED for $500, those got looks but no one even made an offer on it.

It sucks, it's disheartening, but you sell at these prices now and you hope that other people start getting out.

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Dang Kodie, that's nuts! Were you @ the OKC show? If I don't make it through an upcoming selection course that I'm going to I will be back at Sill for 6 months sometime next year and will have to look you up!

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Either you sell at current market value, or you hold on long enough to where your profit is dwarfed by your investment.

Unfortunately that is business. And, if you hold back these animals until you feel the "price is right" you will have adults that now are too expensive (by your pricing thoughts) to legitamently sell.

I helped work a booth at a local show this past weekend, and we sold a Pin for $35, pastel females for $40, spiders for $40, and had sugar males marked at $175. No one even gave the sugars a second glance, let alone a first. Pastel sugar male for $500 and a Mojave x Lesser BEL MARKED for $500, those got looks but no one even made an offer on it.

It sucks, it's disheartening, but you sell at these prices now and you hope that other people start getting out.

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A lady and friend of mine who has sadly passed away gave me some sage advice after she successfully bred horses for many decades:
Breed the best to the best, and hope for the best.
With prices and a market like that, it tells me that anyone who intends to make a business of breeding and selling BP's should be pairing, at minimum, 2-3 gene males with 1-2 gene females, unless you're convinced you've found a new gene.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

Dang Kodie, that's nuts! Were you @ the OKC show? If I don't make it through an upcoming selection course that I'm going to I will be back at Sill for 6 months sometime next year and will have to look you up!

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4

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The OKC elite show, yeah. Next one is in April, haha. The prices were basically like that across the board and people were willing to negotiate to an extent.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A lady and friend of mine who has sadly passed away gave me some sage advice after she successfully bred horses for many decades:
Breed the best to the best, and hope for the best.
With prices and a market like that, it tells me that anyone who intends to make a business of breeding and selling BP's should be pairing, at minimum, 2-3 gene males with 1-2 gene females, unless you're convinced you've found a new gene.

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Yeah, if you want this to pay you you can't be selling single genes. But if you want this to pay itself, breed for what you want and sell the casualties.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Simple, supply and demand is showing you that we have far far too many breeders for far too few customers.

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I agree with this, everywhere I look-Kingsnake, Facebook, Fauna,, there are insane amounts of snakes up for sale and I often ask myself, are there really that many buyers to meet such a huge supply of snakes?

I think the guys that raise their animals to 'well started' i.e. $140g+, that was the buyer know they're buying a solid animal rather than one who has only eaten a max of 3 times and after the shipping stress could prove to be a finicky eater with not much body weight to support not eating for a few weeks to a month...

Welcome to the world of snakes. There are only so many buyers and yet many more people breeding. Unfortunately I think many of these people bought their spiders for $500 and a pastel for $300 a few years ago thinking they'd make a bunch of bees to sell at $1200 for an easy profit. However, that isn't the case. More stock = less demand = lower prices. Especially on single gene stuff that isn't that new (pastels, spiders, pins, etc).

And as others have said, some people just want to move their stock as fast as possible so they keep gutting prices.

Unfortunately, it's all nice and dandy to say you refuse to sell at the lower prices, but at some point you have to cut your losses. A snake is only worth what someone is willing to pay. If you disagree with that price, then you're going have that snake for a long long time. Just the way it goes.

The way it's going, double, triple, and even quad morphs are going to be the only things bringing in any decent price. I no longer have any normal females (except for my het pied breeder, who I will sell to make room for my female pied when she's up to size) so I don't get stuck with a bunch of normals and 1 gene animals. Sure I'll hatch some, but its greatly reduced by having all morph females.

I've thought for some time that the older single gene animals will become like amels and snows in corns where they will become so common their prices will be right a prices for normals.

Best thing to do is to figure out how to adapt to the market so you can keep pressing forward with your passion. Sitting back and complaining won't get you very far. I know it sucks, and I hear you, but we all have to adjust and move on.

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Originally Posted by BigIan

I agree with this, everywhere I look-Kingsnake, Facebook, Fauna,, there are insane amounts of snakes up for sale and I often ask myself, are there really that many buyers to meet such a huge supply of snakes?

I think the guys that raise their animals to 'well started' i.e. $140g+, that was the buyer know they're buying a solid animal rather than one who has only eaten a max of 3 times and after the shipping stress could prove to be a finicky eater with not much body weight to support not eating for a few weeks to a month...

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Personally, I rather have the one that only has taken 3 meals so I can move him into my setup and get him accustomed to it. Don't get me wrong well started is great and all put not my first preference.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A lady and friend of mine who has sadly passed away gave me some sage advice after she successfully bred horses for many decades:
Breed the best to the best, and hope for the best.
With prices and a market like that, it tells me that anyone who intends to make a business of breeding and selling BP's should be pairing, at minimum, 2-3 gene males with 1-2 gene females, unless you're convinced you've found a new gene.

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I disagree. The best doesn't mean a 20 gene animal but the best example of each gene. I have never bough a 2 gene animal. I buy the best examples of single genes and go from there. Does it take longer? Yes, but it gives me complete control over what I am working with.

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about the best way to adapt:

i think, if you want to make money, or if you are a professional and your income depends on it, you need to either be at the top or near the top, or you need to diversify. and with that i mean diversify across species.

breeding rats can cut down your cost of keeping BPs and other snakes. at the same time you can sell live and frozen thawed feeders of all sizes. at the same time you can produce pet-quality rats.

then there would be chameleons. hard to keep, even harder to breed, in females egg retention leading to death is not uncommon, but well-started captive bred chameleons can be worth double the price of an import subadult (taken out of nature), because the captive bred ones are more stable in captivity and healthier. no morphs here, they change color, they are colorful, what would be the point of having an albino or axanthic or hypo?

or hognose, or green tree pythons. or maybe even spiders. when 100 of these really tiny tarantula larvas hatch and you get 40 up to size for sale, thats a lot of money, but its REALLY hard to do.

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding. not only does it generate intense warm fuzzy feelings deep inside when you manage to breed something that is extinct as a species in the wild and that only a handful of people on the planet breed, but you might also turn a decent profit.

People that successfully breed BPs and even turned a profit for a while are EXPERTS, its an ACCOMPLISHMENT to get it done. its sad when they then cannot sell their product and re-coup their costs because of an overheated market, BUT THEY ARE STILL EXPERTS. there are around 3000 species of snakes and only around a third of them are venomous. And most of them are small. Some are tiny. Many are endangered. Many are facing extinction in the wild.


So for all that are successfully breeding BPs but cannot get near the top, maybe the next project should not be bamboo or scaleless or GHI or sunglow, maybe the next project should be jacksons chameleons or green tree pythons or something even more unusual. There are so many species of geckos and lizards, so many species of snakes, so many species of lage spiders. I tried to find a source for these earthworm-like snakes, borrowing black snakes that do not get larger than earthworms, but they eat insects and, well, earthworms. I could not find a single person keeping or breeding them, only a few scientific studies in the lab based on wild caught specimens.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

about the best way to adapt:

i think, if you want to make money, or if you are a professional and your income depends on it, you need to either be at the top or near the top, or you need to diversify. and with that i mean diversify across species.

breeding rats can cut down your cost of keeping BPs and other snakes. at the same time you can sell live and frozen thawed feeders of all sizes. at the same time you can produce pet-quality rats.

then there would be chameleons. hard to keep, even harder to breed, in females egg retention leading to death is not uncommon, but well-started captive bred chameleons can be worth double the price of an import subadult (taken out of nature), because the captive bred ones are more stable in captivity and healthier. no morphs here, they change color, they are colorful, what would be the point of having an albino or axanthic or hypo?

or hognose, or green tree pythons. or maybe even spiders. when 100 of these really tiny tarantula larvas hatch and you get 40 up to size for sale, thats a lot of money, but its REALLY hard to do.

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding. not only does it generate intense warm fuzzy feelings deep inside when you manage to breed something that is extinct as a species in the wild and that only a handful of people on the planet breed, but you might also turn a decent profit.

People that successfully breed BPs and even turned a profit for a while are EXPERTS, its an ACCOMPLISHMENT to get it done. its sad when they then cannot sell their product and re-coup their costs because of an overheated market, BUT THEY ARE STILL EXPERTS. there are around 3000 species of snakes and only around a third of them are venomous. And most of them are small. Some are tiny. Many are endangered. Many are facing extinction in the wild.


So for all that are successfully breeding BPs but cannot get near the top, maybe the next project should not be bamboo or scaleless or GHI or sunglow, maybe the next project should be jacksons chameleons or green tree pythons or something even more unusual. There are so many species of geckos and lizards, so many species of snakes, so many species of lage spiders. I tried to find a source for these earthworm-like snakes, borrowing black snakes that do not get larger than earthworms, but they eat insects and, well, earthworms. I could not find a single person keeping or breeding them, only a few scientific studies in the lab based on wild caught specimens.

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The problem with what you proposed here is appeal. Most people do not want a snake that is not appealing visually so they do not want a snake that is never seen and is very small. Also most people that keep snakes do so because they are a lot easier than lizards for the most part. Most people want something they can take out and hold and show off and all of that fun stuff but also have ease of care. The ball python fits all of that perfectly where no lizard does.

To make it in this industry is quite simple. Produce the best examples of the morphs, be a stand up person and stand by every animal, have exceptional customer service, and offer animals in every price range from a cheap normal male to a bamboo or scaleless.

A lot of people are to stuck on this or that aspect of breeding to look at the market realities of it. Almost no one markets animals well to be quite honest. The best thing to do is reach out in multiple ways, various adds on different sites as well as a website, to market everything and provide details of each individual animal. An example of the information would be hatch date, weight, what it is feeding on, shed dates, dates of feedings, genetics, pictures from multiple angles, prey item size, and pictures of parents. That is a lot of work on the breeders behalf but I as a buyer would be way more interested in that animal from joeblow than a animal listed from Mr. Top breeder with the basics of gender, genetics, and if you are lucky weight.

Those are just my thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

also there are species that are critically endangered or even extinct in the wild, but present in the market due to captive breeding.

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I would love to know of an example of this.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

The problem with what you proposed here is appeal. Most people do not want a snake that is not appealing visually so they do not want a snake that is never seen and is very small. Also most people that keep snakes do so because they are a lot easier than lizards for the most part. Most people want something they can take out and hold and show off and all of that fun stuff but also have ease of care. The ball python fits all of that perfectly where no lizard does.

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Sadly there is a lot of truth in this. BP- plastic tub, heatsource, bedding, temp/humidity guage. Bearded Dragon- good sized cage, special lighting, more complicated food, etc. A lot of casual keepers would rather have the low maintenance pet.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I would love to know of an example of this.

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without much hope to find anything useful i started my search...

and i found there are exactly two species of reptiles with the official status "extinct in the wild":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Soft-shell_Turtle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seychelles_giant_tortoise

there will be many more in captivity that are endangered or critically endangered, but i fail to find a list, a list of endangered or critically endangered species is easy to find, but finding out which of these are bred in captivity is hard.

here a complete list of critically endangered species:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Re...%28Animalia%29

i see 11 species of coloubrids, 17 species of iguanas, 9 species of vipers, 13 turtles, 4 skinks, 13 species of some other sub-order of lizards, 4 crocs, 1 alligator, and more random stuff. all critically endangered.

and finally, after a long search, a hit: only 230 are estimated to exist in the wild, its a viper, and its bred in captivity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_unicolor

EDIT: this one is also critically endangered, but there are references to breeding/keeping in captivity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_catalinensis

If you read on that softshell turtle it states they have been found in the wild since 2002

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

Another side of the lowered prices is that it allows a lot more people to enjoy these amazing animals. My sons and I are having a blast in this hobby. It is a great learning experience for them and a great bonding opportunity for us. This would not be possible for us if Pieds were still $10,000 and Spiders were still $5000. I understand that it must me frustrating for those that are trying to make a business out of this, but for those of us in it as a hobby it sure has opened up a world of opportunity.

To be honest the market is so extremely over saturated anymore that anyone just now starting will be pretty much screwed if they ever hope to make money off of it. Not to burst bubbles or anything but unless you have tens of thousands of dollars to invest in a start up project that not many people are working with you will be pouring money into something for the duration of time that you have it. Sadly most of the animals purchased every day end up either dead due to improper care or on craigslist. At one point I made a pretty good living off of just breeding normals and selling them to pet shops but now a normal is 100% pointless to produce intentionally. I wish this was not the case but it is. Almost all single gene animals are about to end up in the same place as normals in a very short time and then double gene and so on. The only thing worth anything at all in this industry for much longer is recessives but even with them they will come down. Take a look at cornsnakes for example an amel is the same price as a normal and as a snow or even a snow motley.... A triple recessive animal is the same price as a normal.... That is where the ball python industry will be heading IF people do not stop mass producing animals and just breeding some random normal because they think it may have something special when they have no real experience in what to look for. Most of the subtle morphs were found by people who have been in this business for a long time and have seen millions and millions of baby ball pythons so they actually know what to look for.

Don't get me wrong I love these animals and I love this industry but unless either less animals are produced or more people start buying them there will be no point in breeding them for very long. Maybe we as a group need to reach out more and build a new client base.

Ok sorry for the rant just had to get all this out.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

To be honest the market is so extremely over saturated anymore that anyone just now starting will be pretty much screwed if they ever hope to make money off of it. Not to burst bubbles or anything but unless you have tens of thousands of dollars to invest in a start up project that not many people are working with you will be pouring money into something for the duration of time that you have it. Sadly most of the animals purchased every day end up either dead due to improper care or on craigslist. At one point I made a pretty good living off of just breeding normals and selling them to pet shops but now a normal is 100% pointless to produce intentionally. I wish this was not the case but it is. Almost all single gene animals are about to end up in the same place as normals in a very short time and then double gene and so on. The only thing worth anything at all in this industry for much longer is recessives but even with them they will come down. Take a look at cornsnakes for example an amel is the same price as a normal and as a snow or even a snow motley.... A triple recessive animal is the same price as a normal.... That is where the ball python industry will be heading IF people do not stop mass producing animals and just breeding some random normal because they think it may have something special when they have no real experience in what to look for. Most of the subtle morphs were found by people who have been in this business for a long time and have seen millions and millions of baby ball pythons so they actually know what to look for.

Don't get me wrong I love these animals and I love this industry but unless either less animals are produced or more people start buying them there will be no point in breeding them for very long. Maybe we as a group need to reach out more and build a new client base.

Ok sorry for the rant just had to get all this out.

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Just a few points...

1) Starting a legit business with "tens of thousands" is barely a start. To really make a go of this and earn a decent living, there has to be a pretty sizeable initial investment. A business loan or investors is what is needed, imo. I would think at least an initial $100k up front for breeders, racks, supplies, display cases, incubators, rodent racks, etc. Considering what the hottest new morphs go for (20-50k?) that 100k is probably really conservative.

2) Every year, complete newbs post threads about weird looking babies and they end up being something new. And these new genes are what carries this business. Without those, it's done.

If I was looking to make this a business, I'd be doing it similiar to how FloridaReptileRanch is...go big, or just keep the day job. :D

I think it's sad what's happening with the prices. They will just keep going lower and lower until they're worth basically nothing. I just bought a 3 gene male for only $400, where as I paid $1,200 easy last year for just a double gene female. That same snake's morphs are going for about $600 currently.
The people who are in this for the money will just keep lowering their prices to get the sales, and then everyone else will have to match the prices if they want to sell anything, but I refuse to, my snakes are worth more than rock bottom prices.

I breed rabbits too, one of the most difficult breeds due to markings, and also a very popular one. I have been forced to sell my pets for just $3 each, or sometimes even less. Just to put in to perspective how hard these are to breed, I currently have ~30 young ones, and I am only interested in keeping 2 of them. I have had litters of 10 with not a single show rabbit. And these rabbits are selling for as little as $35!!! The lowest I will ever go on my rabbits is $50, I feel they are worth that especially with their genetics that those $35 rabbits DONT have. It's not just reptiles, but other animals too, such as dogs, cats, rabbits, and probably birds too among other things.

I think some of this may have something to do with the current economy. People are laid off or under-employed, paying more taxes than they ever knew before, uncertain future, health insurance premiums going up, etc. The previous reply mentioned rabbits being low, and suspecting it's the same with other animals. I think that's true to an extent too. I know with horses it is really hard to even GIVE away a horse now. May not necessarily be the case for top quality show horses (though I'm sure even those aren't selling for what they did 5 years ago), but for your average horses, you can't sell them any more. I see horses on Craigslist as "free to good home" all the time. It's really sad. I follow a group that buys and rehabs auction horses, and they are getting horses with papers and well known names in their pedigrees, sometimes even horses with good show records, for only a couple hundred (which years ago would have been thousands). I don't really follow much more than that, so I don't know what the show breeders are seeing. This just seems to be the day and age where people want a lot, but for the cost of nothing.

I frequent the Kingsnake.com classifieds daily and when I was selecting a dealer to purchase a small group from, I saw a lot of adds like, "must go", "Do not need these for my Projects", "Rack clearing", and of course, "Due to [insert understandable/legitimate reason] I am selling off most of my stock". I really think people get a bit in over there heads with balls because they are just so nice you just want to get a nice 3.6 breeding group in the mail/at a show and down the road you realize you have other projects you want work on. So, you end up selling a nice proven male Mojave for what some people pay for a hatching. There is also the fact that breeding is not exactly rocket science and we are seeing a lot dedicated younger people (such as myself) who just want to play with snakes, produce some cool stuff, and break even. I will admit that I did ask for some info on some adds that seemed too good to be true, but ended up purchasing from a more reputable breeder...I did not pay a drastic amount more either.

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

I would love to know of an example of this.

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The Red-Tailed Black Shark is very common in the aquarium trade and it seems extirpated in the wild.
If not for hobbyists there would be no hope of every returning a wild population to their prior range. Not that I am aware of a program to do so as of yet.
That I wouldn't expect until the majority of people in Thailand are living comfortably and can concern themselves with things beyond survival and subsistence.