So...This Is A Thing?

So....apparently in states where it is legal to own Rattlesnakes you can pay a vet about $1000 to have the venom glands removed so that the owner can free handle them without worry of getting envenomated.

I can't say I agree with it. I would not do it that's for sure.

Sample video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxb6jZ-mMak

If you choose to do this (I do not agree with it personally, but different strokes for different folks) look up venom glands regenerating so that you can feel just as nervous with a venomoid snake as you do a full blown hots.

Problem is that some time vets dont get all the gland or the snake regrows them over time.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Problem is that some time vets dont get all the gland or the snake regrows them over time.

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Exactly the reason why every "venomoid" snake I have ever handled is treated the exact same as its unaltered kin.

Yes, it's a "thing" called venomoid. Many people believe it is inhumane, and may even affect the snakes ability to digest prey. It can never be fed live again. AND, you're trusting that vet a WHOLE lot to have done the job properly so the glands don't regenerate down the road. A venomoid should still be treated as hot. Oh, and I bet those fangs still hurt like heck.

Ha - Ed and James are faster than me!!

And that is the look and sound of a man doing something he knows is a really bad idea.

Don't be that man. Have the courage and common sense to say "not today" to that camera and that snake.

Does anyone know of any documented case of a venom gland regrowing? I've never seen verifiable reports.

It seems like a benefit that's more for the handler then the animal. I've seen some places keep venomoids as part of their educational display but it was more as a precaution for just in case god forbid something happens and the snake got loose/got out, but they were still treated as if they were hot animals and not handled around the public (and it wasn't advertised that they weren't hot). On an individual basis... idk. I don't really agree with it :/ If you want to keep hots, keep hots. Don't take away their natural defenses so you feel safer, if you need to do that... might not be the best idea to have them to begin with.

Omg....that's insane. He looks terrified the whole time!!!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Does anyone know of any documented case of a venom gland regrowing? I've never seen verifiable reports.

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From: http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html

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" One serious human envenomation by a venomoid cobra was documented by the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, and some people have reported that their "venomoids" can kill mice or that they have milked their "venomoid" and obtained venom. Remember that some venomous snakes with complete glands can deliver many times the human lethal dose in one bite. A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

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It looks like The Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine is the place to search for documentation.
But, true hot or not and prevelence of re-growthaside, there seem to be enough shady people selling things as something they aren't that anyone free handling and showing off with a venomoid could easily find themselves nominated for a Darwin Award.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

From: http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html


It looks like The Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine is the place to search for documentation.
But, true hot or not and prevelence of re-growthaside, there seem to be enough shady people selling things as something they aren't that anyone free handling and showing off with a venomoid could easily find themselves nominated for a Darwin Award.

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So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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We went round and round with this subject over a decade ago on the Kingsnake venomous forum. I have never seen or heard of a single case of regeneration of a gland only the duct. I have never owned, nor do I care to own a venomoid. I just don't get the "inhumane" argument when we are talking about a vet doing it. How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side. :)

The guy at the Kentucky reptile Zoo has a couple of videos of "Venomoids" being milked either due to missed gland tissue or regrowth on youtube.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side. :)

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I don't think any of those are remotely comparable though, the closest would be declawing a cat (which I don't agree with and think it's pretty cruel to the cat). None of them take away the animals ability to eat or kill prey. None of them change the animal from what it is innately. It's more akin to pulling the teeth of a big exotic so that if it bites you, it won't be as bad, or if there was someway to make constrictors not constrict anymore.
And spaying and neutering both have benefits for dogs that aren't breeding. Spaying a non breeder takes away the risk of ovarian cancer and neutering a male dog can help alter his behavior, and it's a heck of a lot safer for OTHER PEOPLE out in public. If you are at a dog park, and one female dog is in heat and if you have unaltered male there, even with a few others who are fixed... it's not fun or safe, and a dog fight waiting to happen. I've worked with lots of unaltered and altered dogs, and I'd take a neutered one every time. It does do a lot for their temperament. Plus it can cut down on PEE ON ALL THE THINGS.
Docking and cropping has its roots in working dogs to keep their ears and tails from being mangled while out on the field, and in that scenario, it is for the animals benefit. On a day to day basis... eh, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to crop or dock, but I've heard done correctly (and at the proper age) it doesn't affect the dogs hearing. I don't know ferrets, but declawing cats IMO is inhumane :/

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

The guy at the Kentucky reptile Zoo has a couple of videos of "Venomoids" being milked either due to missed gland tissue or regrowth on youtube.

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Do you have a link to them. I did a search on Youtube and found some anonymous user with the name 6Speedvert milking three snakes he said were venomoid. He seemed to assume the first and last had gland removal because he said their heads were shrunken in. The second looked normal. The second and third produced venom. Really anecdotal considering he didn't know for sure what surgery they had or in the case of the second one if it truly had surgery. Also, he had no information on who did the surgery. There are only 2-3 vets who perform this surgery and they provide certificates about the procedure. Venomoid Inc. used to contract one of these vets and sell on Kingsnake.

Of course everything I just said is an argument AGAINST trusting a venomoid, also. Certificates can be faked, the snake could have had "surgery" by a backroom butcher instead of a vet or no surgery at all. The caved in head is a tell tale sign of a backroom butcher, vets use human-grade implants to replace the glands.

Here's a link to the YouTube video I found: http://youtu.be/IoTvy2eEgRc

It's stupid and I don't agree with it at all.

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Originally Posted by sunshinenorcas

I don't think any of those are remotely comparable though, the closest would be declawing a cat (which I don't agree with and think it's pretty cruel to the cat). None of them take away the animals ability to eat or kill prey. None of them change the animal from what it is innately. It's more akin to pulling the teeth of a big exotic so that if it bites you, it won't be as bad, or if there was someway to make constrictors not constrict anymore.
And spaying and neutering both have benefits for dogs that aren't breeding. Spaying a non breeder takes away the risk of ovarian cancer and neutering a male dog can help alter his behavior, and it's a heck of a lot safer for OTHER PEOPLE out in public. If you are at a dog park, and one female dog is in heat and if you have unaltered male there, even with a few others who are fixed... it's not fun or safe, and a dog fight waiting to happen. I've worked with lots of unaltered and altered dogs, and I'd take a neutered one every time. It does do a lot for their temperament. Plus it can cut down on PEE ON ALL THE THINGS.
Docking and cropping has its roots in working dogs to keep their ears and tails from being mangled while out on the field, and in that scenario, it is for the animals benefit. On a day to day basis... eh, I personally wouldn't go out of my way to crop or dock, but I've heard done correctly (and at the proper age) it doesn't affect the dogs hearing. I don't know ferrets, but declawing cats IMO is inhumane :/

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The argument that venomoids can't digest food is false. I've kept lots of hots, they all ate f/t prey and they never envenomated it. Just us keeping previously wild animals in captivity change what the animal is. Isn't devenomizing a hot making it safer to the keeper and the public? As far as docking and cropping, the rationale is putting the dog through a procedure because that how it's traditionally done? Doesn't seem like a good reason. Remember people talk about venomoid surgery being unnecessary and for the convenience of the owner. My point is most of these procedures are not inhumane if done by a vet under anesthesia (although I could make a good case for declawing and cropping ears both of which seem very painful and take a long time to heal) and one can argue their necessity also.

The deeper I get into the herp community, the more I respectfully adopt the stance that certain animals should be observed in zoos and not kept by private keepers. Certain monitors, alligators, certain large constrictors, and venomous snakes would fall into this category for me. This practice just solidifies that belief for me.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

The deeper I get into the herp community, the more I respectfully adopt the stance that certain animals should be observed in zoos and not kept by private keepers. Certain monitors, alligators, certain large constrictors, and venomous snakes would fall into this category for me. This practice just solidifies that belief for me.

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I'm totally in no intention derailing this thread, but since you just mentioned alligator this story popped in my head. It's the new record for an alligator, not sure if it's just in MS or what.

Here's the story:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...rre&id=9243228

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Originally Posted by wilomn

So, no.

The link is broken and if you read the whole paragraph it says ducts not just glands.

Worthless.

So, does anyone know of any documented cases of the venom glands regrowing?

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The link works for me, not sure why it doesn't for you.
As for "worthless", try comprehending what is said, "A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

The word, "especially" indicates that this makes the issue much more likely not that it is the only way this can happen.

As I suggested before. Contact the source directly which would be the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine.
I've seen enough tissue regrowth in many vertebrates that one wouldn't expect to have that level of regenerative ability to easily dismiss this claim without reason, you are the one requesting the specifics so, do your own leg-work on digging it up.

Also, hots sold with full venom glands and severed/cauterized ducts are sold as venomoids. Therefore duct or gland has no impact on whether or not it is wise to still consider venomoids as still hot al ethical questions on the procedure aside.

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Originally Posted by Raven01

The link works for me, not sure why it doesn't for you.
As for "worthless", try comprehending what is said, "A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

The word, "especially" indicates that this makes the issue much more likely not that it is the only way this can happen.

As I suggested before. Contact the source directly which would be the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine.
I've seen enough tissue regrowth in many vertebrates that one wouldn't expect to have that level of regenerative ability to easily dismiss this claim without reason, you are the one requesting the specifics so, do your own leg-work on digging it up.

Also, hots sold with full venom glands and severed/cauterized ducts are sold as venomoids. Therefore duct or gland has no impact on whether or not it is wise to still consider venomoids as still hot al ethical questions on the procedure aside.

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The link to the webpage works. The link in your post above and a lot of the links in the article don't. I don't condone venomoids in general because of all the amateur surgeries, however there are a few vets that do it and they do complete duct and gland removal. As I said though, it's impossible to tell if the surgery was legit or not. A certificate can be faked.

I do have a lot of problems with the article, though. The author, whoever it is, seems to be inconsistent in his views. A vet doing surgery with anesthesia is unethical, but a farmer doing an amateur castration on a Bull is OK? He says true venomoids still give a nasty bite, but then brings up them killing rodents as proof of envenomation? Of course a venomoid Gaboon can kill a rat by stabbing it with 2 inch fangs! I don't trust sources that present opinions as facts. The opinion that only rank amateur keepers keep venomoids is not true either. I was at NERD's facility in 2001 and they had a venomoid Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake in the shop as a shop pet. Yasser Mustafa of Spitfire Reptiles took heat on the venomous forums when someone posted a pic of him letting his venomoid albino Monacled Cobra bite his hand.

The guy who wrote that was soundly criticized on Fauna back when it was new for the very reasons you bring up Jeff. I don't bother to explain much to raven, it's not worth the time it would take.

I know of NO gland anywhere ever regrowing being reported by anyone other than someone with no credibility on the issue, like raven.

I've talked to Vets, venomoid keepers and just plain ol' reptile folks. Nothing verifiable. Now, I have heard from my Vet that it is possible for the duct to regrow, but, and this is a point raven seems to have missed, the duct is not the gland and should be treated as such.

I don't condone it, but what one does with one's own animals is one's own call. I do believe they should be treated as hots just in case, especially if the surgery was not done by a Vet.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

I just don't get the "inhumane" argument when we are talking about a vet doing it. How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side. :)

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Spaying/neutering dogs and cats keeps their offspring out if shelters that are already full of millions of dogs and cats. It keeps them from being brought into the world, not taken home by anyone, and eventually euthanized because they don't have enough space to hold all the animals. Yes responsible people can keep dogs and cats that haven't been spayed or neutered but there are too many people that are not responsible at all. I'm not against keeping a dog/cat that's not spayed/neutered that's fine, but I just don't think you can compare that to a rattlesnake getting its venom glands removed. Maybe the descenting and definitely the declawing! That's not good for the cat at all. It makes it harder for them to get around and usually causes some more problems when they get older so I agree with you on that. But the docking of the ears and the tail clipping doesn't really alter their lives very much they can still hear and wag their tail and live a happy life. But as this video shows the snake is not happy at all. Thank god he still has its rattle! He was upset the entire time and if he did still have his venom glands would've dropped that guy. (Probably would've been handling it the same way but still) and he looked terrified the entire video knowing the snake was upset and going to attempt to bite him. I don't know why you would want to own an animal that your in constant fear of. I think it's pretty inhumane to do it to poor thing. It's his only way to defend itself. But I guess people like to live on the wild side. But as Brian Gundy once said "I used to work with rattlesnakes until on bit me and I went into a coma for 3 days". Hopefully this guy doesn't get hurt too bad.



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I dont know if it's humane or not but I do know I sure darn wouldn't have a HOT snake or a venomoid. I'll stick to pythons, boas, and coloubrids. Definitely a very impressive thing though.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

The guy who wrote that was soundly criticized on Fauna back when it was new for the very reasons you bring up Jeff. I don't bother to explain much to raven, it's not worth the time it would take.

I know of NO gland anywhere ever regrowing being reported by anyone other than someone with no credibility on the issue, like raven.

I've talked to Vets, venomoid keepers and just plain ol' reptile folks. Nothing verifiable. Now, I have heard from my Vet that it is possible for the duct to regrow, but, and this is a point raven seems to have missed, the duct is not the gland and should be treated as such.

I don't condone it, but what one does with one's own animals is one's own call. I do believe they should be treated as hots just in case, especially if the surgery was not done by a Vet.

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Yea I've also heard that with no viable proof as well Wes. I think the issue is the vet didn't remove the gland and so when the person was bit they "assumed" it had regrown.

As someone with a background in the hard sciences and having a report that an academic facility has confirmed regrowth, that some arm-chair quarterbacks refuse to actually track down the source and examine it to support their own opinion that contradicts documented cases is not surprising.
As Neal notes even with gland removal there can be errors that leave behind enough venom gland tissue to produce venom in quantities sufficient to cause harm. This also opens the possibility that in a few animals it may even regenerate to a degree. With regeneration being thoroughly documented across many vertebrate species it is foolish to assume it is impossible, however unlikely. Much the same as vasectomy spontaneous reversals can and do occur while surgical reversals still fail with a predictable regularity.
Considering the OP and the nitpicking while not even conceding common ground, it seems that some people just enjoy arguing. I haven't time for that childishness so, I'll urge anyone else that has questions concerning venomoids not being 100% safe to handle to the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine to find their answer. And, re-iterate that this is really an unethical practice in all but a few scenarios. If you cannot take the time to apprentice with a venomous keeper you really shouldn't consider venomous animals for your collection.

Raven, I was unable to find the LTTM report anywhere. I would be interested in it. I did find references to it. Apparently a "venomoid" Cobra envenomated someone at the school? (They do research with venom for human medicine) I'm assuming they did a necropsy and found glands. I would be interested in the background of the snake; if it was known, if it was accurate, what it was, etc.

As far as studies go, even one scientific study doesn't mean a whole lot. Research starts with a theory, if the theory is based on a bias, the findings can be as well (i.e. a study sponsored by the dairy industry on the health risks of margarine). The FDA in the 70's put a warning on saccharin about cancer after 1 flawed study then had to reverse it 30 years later when other studies refuted the findings.

[QUOTE=AlexisFitzy;2143335] But the docking of the ears and the tail clipping doesn't really alter their lives very much they can still hear and wag their tail and live a happy life. But as this video shows the snake is not happy at all. Thank god he still has its rattle! He was upset the entire time and if he did still have his venom glands would've dropped that guy. (Probably would've been handling it the same way but still) and he looked terrified the entire video knowing the snake was upset and going to attempt to bite him. I don't know why you would want to own an animal that your in constant fear of. I think it's pretty inhumane to do it to poor thing. It's his only way to defend itself.



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What makes you think a venomoid doesn't live a happy life? They get pampered just like every other captive snake. Do you really think it knows it doesn't have venom? Many feed captive snakes frozen thawed prey, do you think they feel deprived because they can't kill it themselves? You are anthropomorphizing. I have seen venomoids (like the one I mentioned at NERD) the were perfectly calm when handled. I've been doing this for over 2 decades, I've seen snakes of all types that were terrified of handling. I has nothing to do with "missing its venom glands." I maintain that when it's done by a vet it's no more inhumane than any other proceedure we do for our own convenience or the irresponsibility of society in general.

I never expected this to get so heated.

I understand the reasoning behind doing it. But I also understand the reasoning behind de-clawing a cat. But I would never de-claw my cat. It takes away from them being a cat IMO. But I won't knock the people that do have them de-clawed to protect their furniture and such.

So I won't knock the folks that do this to HOTs. But I wouldn't do it. But then again, no way is hell would I own a HOT unless I was like that old dude from FL that immune to just about all snake venom.

I used to keep hots, but I really don't want the huge responsibility that comes with it anymore. That guy in Florida was Bill Haast. He lived well into his 90's and died of natural causes. He was missing several fingers and was scarred pretty good though.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

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What makes you think a venomoid doesn't live a happy life? They get pampered just like every other captive snake. Do you really think it knows it doesn't have venom? Many feed captive snakes frozen thawed prey, do you think they feel deprived because they can't kill it themselves? You are anthropomorphizing. I have seen venomoids (like the one I mentioned at NERD) the were perfectly calm when handled. I've been doing this for over 2 decades, I've seen snakes of all types that were terrified of handling. I has nothing to do with "missing its venom glands." I maintain that when it's done by a vet it's no more inhumane than any other proceedure we do for our own convenience or the irresponsibility of society in general.

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Well I can see where your coming from, and I'm sorry if I was a bit mean. I guess in my personal opinion I just don't think it would be good to own a venomous reptile as a pet since the main reason most people want a pet is because they want something they can interact with and have fun with. In my opinion I just think that venomous are beautiful animals that should only be viewed from afar or used to extract their venom for antiserum. If you want to own a venomous snake okay own one, but if your going to take its venom glands away then there is no reason for you owning it since its not even the same anymore. What's the point in owning a venomous snake and then taking the glands away? You should've just gotten a non venomous snake. And I think the snake would know that it's venom was gone. If I removed your tear ducts you would know. It seems subtle to us but its probably a big deal for the snake. Especially since when their adults they spend time learning how much venom to inject to their pray, so I think they would feel like something was missing. But this is all in my opinion. I totally respect yours as well and all of your experience. I just wanted to share what I thought.


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"... They can grow to be 7 years old...
I mean 7 feet long..." This guy is turtle heading throughout the entire video lol

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Originally Posted by AlexisFitzy

Well I can see where your coming from, and I'm sorry if I was a bit mean. I guess in my personal opinion I just don't think it would be good to own a venomous reptile as a pet since the main reason most people want a pet is because they want something they can interact with and have fun with. In my opinion I just think that venomous are beautiful animals that should only be viewed from afar or used to extract their venom for antiserum. If you want to own a venomous snake okay own one, but if your going to take its venom glands away then there is no reason for you owning it since its not even the same anymore. What's the point in owning a venomous snake and then taking the glands away? You should've just gotten a non venomous snake. And I think the snake would know that it's venom was gone. If I removed your tear ducts you would know. It seems subtle to us but its probably a big deal for the snake. Especially since when their adults they spend time learning how much venom to inject to their pray, so I think they would feel like something was missing. But this is all in my opinion. I totally respect yours as well and all of your experience. I just wanted to share what I thought.


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That's become my opinion on venomous snakes as well. I've never been interested in venomoids myself. I just would rather idiots like the one in the video have access to them so they don't kill themselves, for themselves and the rest of us. (the press loves a venomous snake kills owner story) The "do it right by apprenticeship" is ideal, but people always have and always will take shortcuts. These people will have that rattlesnake if they want one. If they can't get a venomoid, they'll just get an intact one and kill themselves.

I respect what people have to say and they don't have to agree with me. You just have to remember when trying to empathize with a snake, that they can't physically think the way we do. They don't have the part of the brain that produces higher emotions. They go on instinct. It is possible on some level, they know they have no venom, but they don't have the physical capacity to form the emotion of missing it. People like me aren't try to be mean by saying these things to people that prescribe human emotions like this (or love) to snakes, we're just passing on what science knows to be true.

You couldn't pay me to hold that snake!!

This is another thing that falls under the "just dumb" file/folder. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by treeboa

That's become my opinion on venomous snakes as well. I've never been interested in venomoids myself. I just would rather idiots like the one in the video have access to them so they don't kill themselves, for themselves and the rest of us. (the press loves a venomous snake kills owner story) The "do it right by apprenticeship" is ideal, but people always have and always will take shortcuts. These people will have that rattlesnake if they want one. If they can't get a venomoid, they'll just get an intact one and kill themselves.

I respect what people have to say and they don't have to agree with me. You just have to remember when trying to empathize with a snake, that they can't physically think the way we do. They don't have the part of the brain that produces higher emotions. They go on instinct. It is possible on some level, they know they have no venom, but they don't have the physical capacity to form the emotion of missing it. People like me aren't try to be mean by saying these things to people that prescribe human emotions like this (or love) to snakes, we're just passing on what science knows to be true.

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That just seems like all the more reason not to have them. What if the venom glands weren't removed properly? What if it's still functioning? It's not a terribly common practice. If someone is too scared to own a venomous snake and they want to get a venomoid, then they shouldn't have one to begin with. All it takes is one bite to figure out, 'well, oops'. Just because there are shortcuts to make an animal safer doesn't mean its a good idea to take them. It just seems like the negligent way out.

I just don't agree with it for reasons I seem logical but I don't want to get into it with any members. The thing is why tamper with the way the animal was born?

Just put of curiosity, irrevilant to the venom. doesn't a rattlesnake mainly rattle when angry? I mean they don't rattle just for fun. To my understanding although im not into venomous reptiles rattle comes before bite. The entire time the man held his snake it was rattling, is that not a sign that the animal is anxious and will bite. Venom or not? I mean if my corns or hogs rattle, I take it as a sign that they are not in the mood and leave them alone at the time.

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Originally Posted by Dakota11

Just put of curiosity, irrevilant to the venom. doesn't a rattlesnake mainly rattle when angry? I mean they don't rattle just for fun. To my understanding although im not into venomous reptiles rattle comes before bite. The entire time the man held his snake it was rattling, is that not a sign that the animal is anxious and will bite. Venom or not? I mean if my corns or hogs rattle, I take it as a sign that they are not in the mood and leave them alone at the time.

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It's not a 100% indicator of a coming strike. Also, while I have not seen the video in question since it was first posted, it is possible that the snake has had its mouth sewn shut.

With rattlers, sometimes they rattle and don't strike, sometimes the don't rattle and strike.