So...This Is A Thing?

[treeboa]

The link works for me, not sure why it doesn't for you.
As for "worthless", try comprehending what is said, "A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

The word, "especially" indicates that this makes the issue much more likely not that it is the only way this can happen.

As I suggested before. Contact the source directly which would be the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine.
I've seen enough tissue regrowth in many vertebrates that one wouldn't expect to have that level of regenerative ability to easily dismiss this claim without reason, you are the one requesting the specifics so, do your own leg-work on digging it up.

Also, hots sold with full venom glands and severed/cauterized ducts are sold as venomoids. Therefore duct or gland has no impact on whether or not it is wise to still consider venomoids as still hot al ethical questions on the procedure aside.

The link to the webpage works. The link in your post above and a lot of the links in the article don't. I don't condone venomoids in general because of all the amateur surgeries, however there are a few vets that do it and they do complete duct and gland removal. As I said though, it's impossible to tell if the surgery was legit or not. A certificate can be faked.

I do have a lot of problems with the article, though. The author, whoever it is, seems to be inconsistent in his views. A vet doing surgery with anesthesia is unethical, but a farmer doing an amateur castration on a Bull is OK? He says true venomoids still give a nasty bite, but then brings up them killing rodents as proof of envenomation? Of course a venomoid Gaboon can kill a rat by stabbing it with 2 inch fangs! I don't trust sources that present opinions as facts. The opinion that only rank amateur keepers keep venomoids is not true either. I was at NERD's facility in 2001 and they had a venomoid Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake in the shop as a shop pet. Yasser Mustafa of Spitfire Reptiles took heat on the venomous forums when someone posted a pic of him letting his venomoid albino Monacled Cobra bite his hand.

[wilomn]

The guy who wrote that was soundly criticized on Fauna back when it was new for the very reasons you bring up Jeff. I don't bother to explain much to raven, it's not worth the time it would take.

I know of NO gland anywhere ever regrowing being reported by anyone other than someone with no credibility on the issue, like raven.

I've talked to Vets, venomoid keepers and just plain ol' reptile folks. Nothing verifiable. Now, I have heard from my Vet that it is possible for the duct to regrow, but, and this is a point raven seems to have missed, the duct is not the gland and should be treated as such.

I don't condone it, but what one does with one's own animals is one's own call. I do believe they should be treated as hots just in case, especially if the surgery was not done by a Vet.

[AlexisFitzy]

I just don't get the "inhumane" argument when we are talking about a vet doing it. How is it any different than spaying or neutering, decenting, declawing, ear cropping, or tail docking. Decenting ferrets and declawing cats is done for convenience. The ears and tail are done just for cosmetic purposes. People say if your responsible you should be able to keep an intact hot. Couldn't you make the same case against spaying and neutering? Responsible people don't let their males run loose or breed by accident. Not trying to argue, just presenting another side.

Spaying/neutering dogs and cats keeps their offspring out if shelters that are already full of millions of dogs and cats. It keeps them from being brought into the world, not taken home by anyone, and eventually euthanized because they don't have enough space to hold all the animals. Yes responsible people can keep dogs and cats that haven't been spayed or neutered but there are too many people that are not responsible at all. I'm not against keeping a dog/cat that's not spayed/neutered that's fine, but I just don't think you can compare that to a rattlesnake getting its venom glands removed. Maybe the descenting and definitely the declawing! That's not good for the cat at all. It makes it harder for them to get around and usually causes some more problems when they get older so I agree with you on that. But the docking of the ears and the tail clipping doesn't really alter their lives very much they can still hear and wag their tail and live a happy life. But as this video shows the snake is not happy at all. Thank god he still has its rattle! He was upset the entire time and if he did still have his venom glands would've dropped that guy. (Probably would've been handling it the same way but still) and he looked terrified the entire video knowing the snake was upset and going to attempt to bite him. I don't know why you would want to own an animal that your in constant fear of. I think it's pretty inhumane to do it to poor thing. It's his only way to defend itself. But I guess people like to live on the wild side. But as Brian Gundy once said "I used to work with rattlesnakes until on bit me and I went into a coma for 3 days". Hopefully this guy doesn't get hurt too bad.



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[RaskaNeil]

I dont know if it's humane or not but I do know I sure darn wouldn't have a HOT snake or a venomoid. I'll stick to pythons, boas, and coloubrids. Definitely a very impressive thing though.

[Neal]

The guy who wrote that was soundly criticized on Fauna back when it was new for the very reasons you bring up Jeff. I don't bother to explain much to raven, it's not worth the time it would take.

I know of NO gland anywhere ever regrowing being reported by anyone other than someone with no credibility on the issue, like raven.

I've talked to Vets, venomoid keepers and just plain ol' reptile folks. Nothing verifiable. Now, I have heard from my Vet that it is possible for the duct to regrow, but, and this is a point raven seems to have missed, the duct is not the gland and should be treated as such.

I don't condone it, but what one does with one's own animals is one's own call. I do believe they should be treated as hots just in case, especially if the surgery was not done by a Vet.

Yea I've also heard that with no viable proof as well Wes. I think the issue is the vet didn't remove the gland and so when the person was bit they "assumed" it had regrown.

[Raven01]

As someone with a background in the hard sciences and having a report that an academic facility has confirmed regrowth, that some arm-chair quarterbacks refuse to actually track down the source and examine it to support their own opinion that contradicts documented cases is not surprising.
As Neal notes even with gland removal there can be errors that leave behind enough venom gland tissue to produce venom in quantities sufficient to cause harm. This also opens the possibility that in a few animals it may even regenerate to a degree. With regeneration being thoroughly documented across many vertebrate species it is foolish to assume it is impossible, however unlikely. Much the same as vasectomy spontaneous reversals can and do occur while surgical reversals still fail with a predictable regularity.
Considering the OP and the nitpicking while not even conceding common ground, it seems that some people just enjoy arguing. I haven't time for that childishness so, I'll urge anyone else that has questions concerning venomoids not being 100% safe to handle to the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine to find their answer. And, re-iterate that this is really an unethical practice in all but a few scenarios. If you cannot take the time to apprentice with a venomous keeper you really shouldn't consider venomous animals for your collection.

[treeboa]

Raven, I was unable to find the LTTM report anywhere. I would be interested in it. I did find references to it. Apparently a "venomoid" Cobra envenomated someone at the school? (They do research with venom for human medicine) I'm assuming they did a necropsy and found glands. I would be interested in the background of the snake; if it was known, if it was accurate, what it was, etc.

As far as studies go, even one scientific study doesn't mean a whole lot. Research starts with a theory, if the theory is based on a bias, the findings can be as well (i.e. a study sponsored by the dairy industry on the health risks of margarine). The FDA in the 70's put a warning on saccharin about cancer after 1 flawed study then had to reverse it 30 years later when other studies refuted the findings.

[treeboa]

[QUOTE=AlexisFitzy;2143335] But the docking of the ears and the tail clipping doesn't really alter their lives very much they can still hear and wag their tail and live a happy life. But as this video shows the snake is not happy at all. Thank god he still has its rattle! He was upset the entire time and if he did still have his venom glands would've dropped that guy. (Probably would've been handling it the same way but still) and he looked terrified the entire video knowing the snake was upset and going to attempt to bite him. I don't know why you would want to own an animal that your in constant fear of. I think it's pretty inhumane to do it to poor thing. It's his only way to defend itself.



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What makes you think a venomoid doesn't live a happy life? They get pampered just like every other captive snake. Do you really think it knows it doesn't have venom? Many feed captive snakes frozen thawed prey, do you think they feel deprived because they can't kill it themselves? You are anthropomorphizing. I have seen venomoids (like the one I mentioned at NERD) the were perfectly calm when handled. I've been doing this for over 2 decades, I've seen snakes of all types that were terrified of handling. I has nothing to do with "missing its venom glands." I maintain that when it's done by a vet it's no more inhumane than any other proceedure we do for our own convenience or the irresponsibility of society in general.

[MasonC2K]

I never expected this to get so heated.

I understand the reasoning behind doing it. But I also understand the reasoning behind de-clawing a cat. But I would never de-claw my cat. It takes away from them being a cat IMO. But I won't knock the people that do have them de-clawed to protect their furniture and such.

So I won't knock the folks that do this to HOTs. But I wouldn't do it. But then again, no way is hell would I own a HOT unless I was like that old dude from FL that immune to just about all snake venom.

[treeboa]

I used to keep hots, but I really don't want the huge responsibility that comes with it anymore. That guy in Florida was Bill Haast. He lived well into his 90's and died of natural causes. He was missing several fingers and was scarred pretty good though.