Two Headed Albino Bateater.

don't know if this has been posted on any reptile forums yet or of this is old and this guy is just trying to pull everyones chain.. but this guy i follow on instagram claims to have just hatched this... freak.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/04/12/y5y7yvep.jpg
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They look dead to me.

Yeah they don't look good, that's a burm retic cross?

are they dead?:confusd:

Yeah, looking super-doubtful that they're viable. Cool in theory, but such is nature.

in the comments he claims theyre alive.

I'd like to see a video showing they're alive since they look pretty gone to me. On that note I don't think I've ever seen an albino bateater before.

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Originally Posted by Daybreaker

I'd like to see a video showing they're alive since they look pretty gone to me. On that note I don't think I've ever seen an albino bateater before.

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I've NEVER seen one. I heard of a guy who was trying but every clutch kept slugging out.

Looks like a 2 headed albino retic.

That is DEFINITELY a white phase albino retic. There is no way possible for a bateater to be albino because the alleles needed for Albino burmese and Albino retic do not sit on the same loci making it impossible for them to line up. However, if you cross a het albino bateater to a retic albino, you will get albinos that way, but those are no longer consider bat eaters. They look fine as far as being alive. Two handed animals survive . . . its not uncommon with some care.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

That is DEFINITELY a white phase albino retic. There is no way possible for a bateater to be albino because the alleles needed for Albino burmese and Albino retic do not sit on the same loci making it impossible for them to line up. However, if you cross a het albino bateater to a retic albino, you will get albinos that way, but those are no longer consider bat eaters. They look fine as far as being alive. Two handed animals survive . . . its not uncommon with some care.

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This may not be true. I have crossed an albino calking with an albino corn and gotten all albino babies. I doubt that snake could survive, it looked pretty deformed, but I don't doubt that it is an albino bateater.

This is true. It's been tried and proven. There was a VERY recent discussion on this very topic on the Retic Nation site where many people have done bateater crosses, including albino x albino. It produced normal offspring.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

That is DEFINITELY a white phase albino retic. There is no way possible for a bateater to be albino because the alleles needed for Albino burmese and Albino retic do not sit on the same loci making it impossible for them to line up. However, if you cross a het albino bateater to a retic albino, you will get albinos that way, but those are no longer consider bat eaters. They look fine as far as being alive. Two handed animals survive . . . its not uncommon with some care.

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I am sorry but while your statement about an Albino burm x Albino retic breeding not resulting in Albino bat-eaters may be true your conclusion that "there is no way possible for a bat-eater to be Albino" is completely incorrect.

A true T-neg Albino burm when bred to a true T-neg Albino retic would absolutely result in Albino bat-eaters because both parents would be missing the exact same gene; the tyrosinase gene.

So the breeding you cite as being "proof" is not proof in any way, what it actually is is a case of either the Albino Burm or the Albino retic (or both) are actually a T-pos type Albino and give that there are at least three types (that I know of, and I am not a Burm or retic guy so maybe there are more) of Albino for both species then it is not unreasonable to expect non-compatible Albino types being crossed together.

So the real question is: What type of Albino Burm and what type of Albino retic were bred in this instance versus what type of Albino Burm and what type of Albino retic were bred in the instance you cite. Without knowing those specifics you cannot rightly conclude that the animal pictured here is not an Albino bat-eater.

Again this was just discussed. All three albino phases fall on the same loci in Retics. Then the other two types are different as well, I.e, not compatible. Simple genetics to understand this. Not to mention then genus and species barrier given.


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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

That is DEFINITELY a white phase albino retic. There is no way possible for a bateater to be albino because the alleles needed for Albino burmese and Albino retic do not sit on the same loci making it impossible for them to line up. However, if you cross a het albino bateater to a retic albino, you will get albinos that way, but those are no longer consider bat eaters. They look fine as far as being alive. Two handed animals survive . . . its not uncommon with some care.

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even them sitting on different loci dont make it absolutely impossible.....just so unlikely that it might as well be impossible...unless of course they sit on entirely separate chromosomes as well which reduces the chances even further...

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Again this was just discussed. All three albino phases fall on the same loci in Retics. Then the other two types are different as well, I.e, not compatible. Simple genetics to understand this. Not to mention then genus and species barrier given.

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You are misusing the term "loci" in all of this and that is the first issue here.

The three phases of Albino retic are 1) the Purple/White allele group 2) Green and 3) TypeII. Each of these phases is a mutant gene at a given locus. The Purple/White locus is completely unrelated to the Green is completely unrelated to the TypeII. If I breed a TypeII to a Purple I do not get an Albino I get double hets. These are totally different genes


And in Burms you have 1) Albino 2) Purple Albino and 3) Green Albino. And just like above, the Albino locus is completely unrelated to the Purple is completely unrelated to the Green. And again, just like above if I breed a Green to a Purple I do not get an Albino I get double hets. These are totally different genes.


Now, if I breed a Green Burm to a TypeII retic what do I get?? I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Green gene in Burms is the same gene as the TypeII gene in retics. But, given what I do know about the genetics of Albinos in many animal species I feel it is pretty safe to say that these genes are different and so what we would get is double het bat-eaters

And if I breed a typical Albino Burm to a White retic what do I get?? Again I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Albino gene in Burms is the same gene as the White gene in retics. This one is a bit trickier because a Albino Burm and a White retic both appear to be T-neg types. But, again, given what I do know about the genetics of Albinos in many animal species I again feel comfortable saying that these genes, while phenotypically similar, are actually different and so what we would get is once again double het bat-eaters.

Last one, if I breed a typical Albino Burm to a TypeII retic what do I get?? Again I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Albino gene in Burms is the same gene as the TypeII gene in retics. And again, this one is tricky because a Albino Burm and a TypeII retic both appear to be T-neg types. But if they are both T-neg types then, instead of getting double het bat-eaters what you get is T-neg type Albino bat-eaters.


So, once again, the important factor here is to know what types of Albino were used in the breeding you are citing versus they types of Albino used to create this two-headed animal. Because if you are talking about a Green Burm to a TypeII retic but this guy bred a Albino Burm to a TypeII retic then your citation is the apple and this guys breeding is the orange

i love asplundii's genetic lessons. lol the guy did say it survived the hatch and is alive.. for now. interested to see if he can get it to eat. i know it's not likely. i don't know much about hybrids, but are deformities like this in hybrids a lot more common?

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Originally Posted by creepin

i love asplundii's genetic lessons. lol the guy did say it survived the hatch and is alive.. for now. interested to see if he can get it to eat. i know it's not likely. i don't know much about hybrids, but are deformities like this in hybrids a lot more common?

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I'm not sure ablut the whole albino genetics so that I have jo comment to, but this really looks like a high white albino retic.

Id like to see more and the clutch mates. Any more pictures?

I'm pretty sure that's a snake they showed on a prehistoricpets youtube vid.

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Yeah, do a youtube search "two headed retic". I knew I had seen that snake somewhere.

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Originally Posted by creepin

don't know if this has been posted on any reptile forums yet or of this is old and this guy is just trying to pull everyones chain.. but this guy i follow on instagram claims to have just hatched this... freak.

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He's definitely yanking chains...why lie about something like that??? So pathetic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNnukywp__k

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Originally Posted by JLC

He's definitely yanking chains...why lie about something like that??? So pathetic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNnukywp__k

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thank you. lol that's why i posted it hear. figured if someone had seen these images you guys would call it out.

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Originally Posted by JLC

He's definitely yanking chains...why lie about something like that??? So pathetic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNnukywp__k

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Another case solved by Judy. :P

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Originally Posted by JLC

He's definitely yanking chains...why lie about something like that??? So pathetic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNnukywp__k

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Every time I see this guy pop up, he's being a complete idiot.

I didn't even bother to read his lesson since he believes I misused loci lol... His point is moot since the species are not genetically similar enough to be compatible in albino crosses. And yes after looking again those screen shots are from Jays two headed white albino Retic...


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Originally Posted by zeion97

Another case solved by Judy. :P

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Nope...NormanSnake brought it up. I just posted the link he was referring to. :gj:

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

I didn't even bother to read his lesson since he believes I misused loci lol... His point is moot since the species are not genetically similar enough to be compatible in albino crosses. And yes after looking again those screen shots are from Jays two headed white albino Retic...


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How long have you been working with retics and how many of what type do you personally own?

One year with Retics in house. I have 9. 6 of them contain albino genetics two visuals 4 hets. No none of them or amel or type II albino because its a pain to have to make males that specialized. But that has nothing to do with my background in genetics. No attacks today Wilomn it's pointless.


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Originally Posted by JLC

Nope...NormanSnake brought it up. I just posted the link he was referring to. :gj:

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Thanks for posting the vid. I'm on my phone so it's hard for me!


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Originally Posted by zeion97

I'm not sure ablut the whole albino genetics so that I have jo comment to, but this really looks like a high white albino retic.

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I was not trying to say that the two-headed animal was absolutely a bat-eater, I do not have the knowledge to make that assessment and I gladly yield to others on that matter. All I was contending was that an Albino bat-eater could indeed occur.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

I didn't even bother to read his lesson since he believes I misused loci lol...

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What a wonderfully enlightened point of view, someone points out that you do not understand something and rather than consider that they might, just may be, correct you instead take the attitude that they are the stupid one...

You did misuse loci, your own words betray you:

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

All three albino phases fall on the same loci in Retics. Then the other two types are different as well, I.e, not compatible.

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Right there you say that all three types of Albino in retics fall on the same loci and then you say that they are all different/not compatible. If they all fall on the same locus then they would be compatible. Since they are not compatible they do not fall on the same locus.

There are (I believe) three separate and distinct Albino loci in retics:

Purple/White
Type II
Green

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

His point is moot since the species are not genetically similar enough to be compatible in albino crosses.

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And this is just hogwash. The species are genetically similar enough to create a hybrid but they are not genetically similar enough for the hybrid to be Albino... The T-neg albino locus is the tyrosinase gene. Tyrosinase is tyrosinase is tyrosinase. Does not matter if it is in a retic or a Burm or a ball or a corn or a chondro or an iguana or a axolotl or a bullfrog or a budgie or a cat or a human. Same gene product in all of them and deleting it gives the same phenotype. If both parents lack the gene then the offspring will too. Basic genetics right there.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I was not trying to say that the two-headed animal was absolutely a bat-eater, I do not have the knowledge to make that assessment and I gladly yield to others on that matter. All I was contending was that an Albino bat-eater could indeed occur.




What a wonderfully enlightened point of view, someone points out that you do not understand something and rather than consider that they might, just may be, correct you instead take the attitude that they are the stupid one...

You did misuse loci, your own words betray you:



Right there you say that all three types of Albino in retics fall on the same loci and then you say that they are all different/not compatible. If they all fall on the same locus then they would be compatible. Since they are not compatible they do not fall on the same locus.

There are (I believe) three separate and distinct Albino loci in retics:

Purple/White
Type II
Green

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way to be wrong . . . When I say the three phases are compatible they are - Purple, white, and Lavander. You can breed a Lav x lav and you get all three phases, you can breed lax x purple and get lav and purple, lav x white and you get lav and whites, white x white all white, purple x purple all purple and purple x white = all lavs.

You can not breed Amel x Purple and get anything other than double hets, Amel being type II, and then a third type III that bob clark proved to again be distinct is not compatible with any of the rest. So recap there are 3 types of albino retics, of the type I there are 3 phases that are compatible with eachother showing different results. Each type is at a different Loci (or loucs) for each allele.

I did not go into any depth to the reply because it was not warranted. But since you want to again show your whit, allow me to clarify your own statements.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

I did not go into any depth to the reply because it was not warranted. But since you want to again show your whit, allow me to clarify your own statements.

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Thank you for the clarification. You are doing a better job of proving my larger argument that an Albino bat-eater is indeed possible in doing so.

I am well versed in the genetics of the Purple/White allele group of retics and I certainly did not need that lesson. It is nothing new for me and the same thing has been observed in many other species. But I do rescind that you do not understand the term locus, Purple and White are different alleles of the same locus and that is why the breedings in the Purple/White group turn out the way you describe.

You have enlightened me that I mistaken about there being a Green Albino retic. Fair enough, I said I was not fully up to par on the retic morphs in that regard.

And you say there is an Amel and a TypeIII and neither of these are compatible with the others


Knowing all of this, simply adds to my argument that an Albino bat-eater is absolutely possible.


In retics we have:

Amel
Purple/White group (Lav obviously being part of this since Lav is just a heteroallelic morph)
TypeII
TypeIII

And in Burms we have:

Albino
Purple
Green


With four different Albino loci in retic and three different loci in Burms there are twelve possible breeding combinations between the two species (I am going to skip typing them all out as I am sure you can figure them out.) If both species have a true T-neg type Albino (highly likely) then only one of those twelve combinations would yield an Albino bat-eater and the other eleven would give you double het animals. So I will ask you again, point blank: What Albino type of retic was used in your "proof" breeding? Amel, Purple/White, TypeII or TypeIII? And what Albino type of Burm was used in this same breeding? Albino, Purple or Green? And who, if anyone, has done the other eleven possible crosses?

If the "proof" breeding of Albino Burm to Albino retic was the wrong pair of loci between the species then you would not get an Albino bat-eater because they are incompatible loci. This is most likely what happened in the case you are citing. However, that does not change the fact that if you have the correct pair of loci (i.e., both T-neg in retic and T-neg in Burm) then you absolutely would get an Albino bat-eater.

So if, and only if, all twelve possible crosses have been made and in none of those cases an Albino bat-eater occurs then you can say that it is "impossible." But a single breeding that likely involved the wrong Albino types only proves that one or both of the parents was not a T-neg type Albino. It does not prove anything beyond that. It certainly does not prove that Albino bat-eaters are "impossible"

And If we find compatible genes than sure. But based on the crosses that have been done, based on the classification of these two species in general. And again you seem to find my misuing the term loci baffles me . . the allele is the part of the gene that controls the trait, the loci is the alleles location on that gene. This reflects what I've said again and again now. Read it carefully . . .

Why stop your assumptions there and lets start assuming that Blonde is compatible with bateaters! Why not? Blonde is a new "albino ish" type of phase. Since all its doing is coding for a reduction of certain pigments, as long as we can get something to match up its possible, but again we are talking VERY UNLIKELY. So allow me to state this again. These are White Phase Reticulated Pythons. No one has produced an Albino Bateater and they will not produce an albino bateater. This is based on our current understandings of these crosses. Not to mention the odds are against you. When you do a bateater cross you may see 32 eggs, and of those 7 may candle fertile. Of those 2 may survive to hatch date in some of the worst of cases.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

And again you seem to find my misuing the term loci baffles me . . the allele is the part of the gene that controls the trait, the loci is the alleles location on that gene. This reflects what I've said again and again now. Read it carefully . . .

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I read it very carefully. You, it seems, did not read my post carefully...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

But I do rescind that you do not understand the term locus

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Rescind = to revoke, cancel, repeal, take back

I take back what I said about you not understanding the term loci.

(However that is not the correct definition of allele. Alleles are different forms of a gene. But now I am just being a smart-alack :P )

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

But based on the crosses that have been done, based on the classification of these two species in general.

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But you are citing only a single cross (that you still will not clarify the types involved) and saying that single cross proves an absolute. I disagree with that

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Why stop your assumptions there and lets start assuming that Blonde is compatible with bateaters! Why not? Blonde is a new "albino ish" type of phase. Since all its doing is coding for a reduction of certain pigments, as long as we can get something to match up its possible, but again we are talking VERY UNLIKELY.

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I did not include Blonde because it is obviously not a T-neg type (neither are Purple/White in retics nor Green and Purple in Burms but that is getting a bit more deeply into it than I wanted to go) but there is nothing that prevents a Blonde-type bat-eater as well assuming that Burms carry a mutation of the same gene (something I do not know.)

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

So allow me to state this again. These are White Phase Reticulated Pythons.

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And again, I never contended the identity of this two-headed animal. All I was doing was saying that Albino bat-eaters are not impossible.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

And If we find compatible genes than sure.

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The gene is certainly there, it is just the tyr gene and both species have the gene just like every other snake has the gene just like you and I have the gene.

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

No one has produced an Albino Bateater and they will not produce an albino bateater. This is based on our current understandings of these crosses. Not to mention the odds are against you. When you do a bateater cross you may see 32 eggs, and of those 7 may candle fertile. Of those 2 may survive to hatch date in some of the worst of cases.

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Just because no one has done it does not mean it cannot be done. I am assuming that by "current understanding of these crosses" you mean retic x Burm and not different types of Albinos. I will happily give you that the statistical odds are not that good. That said, genetically it is not just possible, it is an absolute. If you were to take a homozygous of whatever Albino type in retics that was T-neg and bred it to a homozygous of whatever Albino type in Burms that was T-neg then then the bat-eaters you got, however few, would be T-neg Albinos.

Beat this with a bat till its dead I suppose. . . But again,given the extremely unlikely possibility that you will get a matching mutation across these two species, I still stand in the unlikely hood that it may occur. Is it possible if all the stars line up? Sure. Just like the Burmese that proved to be capable of parthenogenesis. Can we then assume that all Burmese are capable. No... Can we assume that any are? No... A genetic odd ball does not give us enough evidence to suggest its capable of happening again the only point of this statement is to suggest just because something is possible based on the type of gene that is mutated it does not mean it is probable that it will likely occur.


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You and I will simply have to agree to disagree then.

It is not a matter of "probable" when dealing with an identical gene. If both parents lack the tyr gene then the resulting offspring will be Albinos. Does not matter if those parents are both retics, both Burms or if one parent is a retic and the other is a Burm.

There are always those genetic misfits that make even the most realistic outcome fail to happen. I can aggree I suppose to the fact that if you proved out a variation of albino to be T- in both Burmese and Reticulated pythons, it should very well produce an albino bateater. But before we can get to that part, as people asked darwin "Where are the intermediates???"

That's definitely the two-headed retic from Prehistoric.

About 12 years ago I had a group of albino Burmese x retics. They were produced from breeding an albino Burmese python to a retic, then raising the 50/50 hybrid babies that were het albino and breeding them back to mom, the albino burm. so the ensuing babies were 75% Burmese, 25% retic and were both normal colored and visual albinos and were very odd looking snakes that were not as radical looking as the 50/50's I had but they were very obviously not albino burms. I purchased them from a breeder in England and sold them all in the United States over the next few years. E

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Originally Posted by asplundii

You are misusing the term "loci" in all of this and that is the first issue here.

The three phases of Albino retic are 1) the Purple/White allele group 2) Green and 3) TypeII. Each of these phases is a mutant gene at a given locus. The Purple/White locus is completely unrelated to the Green is completely unrelated to the TypeII. If I breed a TypeII to a Purple I do not get an Albino I get double hets. These are totally different genes


And in Burms you have 1) Albino 2) Purple Albino and 3) Green Albino. And just like above, the Albino locus is completely unrelated to the Purple is completely unrelated to the Green. And again, just like above if I breed a Green to a Purple I do not get an Albino I get double hets. These are totally different genes.


Now, if I breed a Green Burm to a TypeII retic what do I get?? I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Green gene in Burms is the same gene as the TypeII gene in retics. But, given what I do know about the genetics of Albinos in many animal species I feel it is pretty safe to say that these genes are different and so what we would get is double het bat-eaters

And if I breed a typical Albino Burm to a White retic what do I get?? Again I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Albino gene in Burms is the same gene as the White gene in retics. This one is a bit trickier because a Albino Burm and a White retic both appear to be T-neg types. But, again, given what I do know about the genetics of Albinos in many animal species I again feel comfortable saying that these genes, while phenotypically similar, are actually different and so what we would get is once again double het bat-eaters.

Last one, if I breed a typical Albino Burm to a TypeII retic what do I get?? Again I do not know and neither do you because neither of us know if the Albino gene in Burms is the same gene as the TypeII gene in retics. And again, this one is tricky because a Albino Burm and a TypeII retic both appear to be T-neg types. But if they are both T-neg types then, instead of getting double het bat-eaters what you get is T-neg type Albino bat-eaters.


So, once again, the important factor here is to know what types of Albino were used in the breeding you are citing versus they types of Albino used to create this two-headed animal. Because if you are talking about a Green Burm to a TypeII retic but this guy bred a Albino Burm to a TypeII retic then your citation is the apple and this guys breeding is the orange

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Could you explain more about the bolded items, just curious. I have never heard of these phases of albino or never heard of them referrd by that name. thanks in advance.