Will My CO2 Chamber Kill Hatchling Balls Too?

As I await the hatching of my first clutch, I find myself faced with the unpleasant possibility of birth defects. You never know, right. My fiancee and I just started culling our rats with a newly designed CO2 chamber and it really is so much more quick and humane then freezing them. I just wonder, in case the worst should happen, would the CO2 chamber be an effective way to cull any deformed hatchlings? Would it be as quick for them? I'm sure if the situations arises I will be absolutely devastated :tears:, but I would rather be prepared to deal with it in the most painless way possible.

would this work? Any thoughts on having to cull problem hatchlings?

It would work, but probably much slower than with rodents because of their breathing rate.

I would like to hear how others cull deformed babies.

I do NOT like this thread, but I will continue to follow it due my thirst for new ball python knowledge. And also because I will be breeding someday as well.

The best way to euthanize a reptile is to destroy the brain. CO2 will work, but it will take a very long time. How long? I don't know. You certainly don't want to mess it up by pulling them out early.

Freezing is also a commonly used method of euthanization. Some people argue it's inhumane. I guess there's some evidence that they can feel their cells freezing and that causes pain. I can't point you to the study, but perhaps someone else can. Others say that snakes put into a freezer are found frozen in a very calm state, whereas I know when my snakes feel pain, they react to it. I'm not endorsing this method, just telling you that some breeders use it.

I do not like this thread either....:( ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

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I think pithing (destroying the brain) is the quickest and pain free for the animal. It is very hands on and I don't think some keepers would be able to do it. I refuse to put any animal in the freezer.
I also keep a hungry king snake on hand to dispose of any bodies. Hasn't happened yet and I hope to never have to. But I would feel a little better feeding the cull to something rather than going in the trash.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I do not like this thread either....:( ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

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It isn't about breeding. Animals can be born too deformed to eat, and will die regardless. Some believe (myself included), that it is more humane to put them out of their misery than wait for them to starve to death.

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Originally Posted by liv

It isn't about breeding. Animals can be born too deformed to eat, and will die regardless. Some believe (myself included), that it is more humane to put them out of their misery than wait for them to starve to death.

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x2 Not to mention that there are all the horrors of spines too kinked for the animal to even function, period. Let alone even attempted to feed. I actually think that although a tad grimdark, it's good that the OP has these things in their head because most people do not before they start breeding and low and behold, a super deformed baby will pop out and you have no preparation to handle the situation. Deformed animals are an unfortunate by product of breeding that everyone should be aware of.

To answer OP's question, I've been told time and time again that in regards to snakes, CO2 chambers are not a humane method since it takes such a long time to cull the BP. If you don't want to go with pithing, you're best bet is to put it in the freezer and just wait until it passes of hypothermia. I think that's the method most people who don't have it in them to pith a hatchling use.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I do not like this thread either....:( ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

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Originally Posted by liv

It isn't about breeding. Animals can be born too deformed to eat, and will die regardless. Some believe (myself included), that it is more humane to put them out of their misery than wait for them to starve to death.

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I don't like this thread either, but I do not think the OP is talking about killing a baby that might otherwise thrive despite a deformity. But it is a fact of life that some babies just cannot survive due to severe birth defects. I think it is responsible of the OP to consider what they may have to do BEFORE they are in that position. It is not a "nice" thing to talk about, but breeding is not always a pleasant experience. Sometimes, we have to discuss the unpleasant to better ourselves and do right by our animals whether we "like" it or not. :gj:

I've never had to cull snakes but I've had to due it with farm animals more times than a few. It's a unpleasant part of any breeding but at times it's the kind way, on the farm mostly bullet to put them down fast. Always felt least painful was the brain, if I ever need to cull snakes I'm sure ill go that way too but not with a bullet I'm sure that's kinda dumb to try.

Freezing is not a humane method of killing a reptile, nor is CO2. If you don't have it in you to destroy the brain of a hatchling that's deformed enough to likely be experiencing excruciating pain right out of the egg, you really shouldn't be breeding them. I doubt many people have access to lethal injection, so we'll pretend that's off the table. Lots of people think 'oohhh ill put this snake in with this snake and make a pretty pokemon.' I don't mean to belittle our hobby, but there is a HUGE amount of that kind of behavior going on. You put the snake in the freezer because you 'don't have it in you' and subject it to unimaginable pain and trauma that way. That is not fair to the animal you forced into the world. That is not ethical animal breeder behavior and you should stick to animal keeping and not breeding.

There is a lot of ethics with this question.

CO2 and Freezing are not good methods.

Pithing destroying the brain case is the most efficient way short of a vet.

That said I feel that if you are breeding you should be prepared to euthanize this way it is part of the responsibility of breeding. If you can't bring yourself you should not be breeding.

For the general pet owner I believe the answer is different. Euthanizing a pet is not expected it does however occur. Pithing is the best home way, however botched is worse than anything else. For a pet owner the fastest way that that individual can manage is the best way. If my pet snakes were seriously hurt and needed to be mercy euthanized I hope I would be able to pith and save the agony. My partner is disabled, and tender hearted, there is no way she would be able to pith our pets. I work 45 min at best away from home, not soon enough freezing would be better than suffering longer. In her case freezing is better than nothing.

Mercy euthanizing is about the fastest efficient way to end suffering. A general pet owner I feel at least does not need to be prepared to euthanize a pet. Breeders I feel should be prepared to do this it has a much higher chance of being needed.

When you freeze a reptile, ice crystals form in the cells before the brain dies. This means the animal feels its own eyes freezing, cracking, and bursting before it actually dies. You wouldn't know that by looks though. What you'd see is the animal sit very still and probably appear to be 'going to sleep.' In case this needs to be spelled out - they are cold-blooded animals. Without warmth they can't move - they become paralyzed.

If this needs to be translated to 'human terms' this is basically like being pinned down and microwaved without the ability to scream or thrash about because you're put under a drug that causes you to be physically paralyzed.

I'm not saying this to be brutal, I'm saying this to translate reality to people who seem to be incapable of educating themselves properly or understanding the topic.

Here is a nice picture that I do not own the rights to:
http://www.reptilesalive.com/images/jacobsonshine.jpg


It's your ethical responsibility to internalize this information before incubating snake eggs.

I'm not really trying to drag out an ethics thing here but just as a fact, snakes are ectotherms and derive heat from external sources and lack the ability to efficiently conserve their body temperatures so I would assume that death by hypothermia would actually be a very quick process for them. I'm going to go do some research on the topic but just using my intuition alone, it seems like a logical conclusion to draw.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

When you freeze a reptile, ice crystals form in the cells before the brain dies. This means the animal feels its own eyes freezing, cracking, and bursting before it actually dies. You wouldn't know that by looks though. What you'd see is the animal sit very still and probably appear to be 'going to sleep.' In case this needs to be spelled out - they are cold-blooded animals. Without warmth they can't move - they become paralyzed.

If this needs to be translated to 'human terms' this is basically like being pinned down and microwaved without the ability to scream or thrash about because you're put under a drug that causes you to be physically paralyzed.

I'm not saying this to be brutal, I'm saying this to translate reality to people who seem to be incapable of educating themselves properly or understanding the topic.

Here is a nice picture that I do not own the rights to:
http://www.reptilesalive.com/images/jacobsonshine.jpg


It's your ethical responsibility to internalize this information before incubating snake eggs.

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Guess I should have checked the thread before replying.

Sorry to get into gory details here, but what precisely is the quickest and most humane way to 'pith'? I'm assuming we're not talking about a swift decapitation, but something more like putting something sharp through where the brain would be? (I'm sorry for getting so specific, it's a really unpleasant topic, but I'd rather know)

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Originally Posted by Xaila

Sorry to get into gory details here, but what precisely is the quickest and most humane way to 'pith'? I'm assuming we're not talking about a swift decapitation, but something more like putting something sharp through where the brain would be? (I'm sorry for getting so specific, it's a really unpleasant topic, but I'd rather know)

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I definitively know decapitation won't kill a snake quickly, there are studies that suggest the heads can stay alive for extended periods of time even, but I know that some people just use a pair of kitchen shears to split the head in half.

Pithing and decapitation are not the same. Pithing is quite literally destroying the brane case. I have only ever done this once and hope never to do so again! In my case a wild bird but it is the same. I used a pocket knife it is what I had. The blade is pushed through the top of the skull, and then quickly moved side to side (while holding the skull still) this scrambles the brain. I have seen it done by crushing the skull. Reptiles have strong bones so hesitation is very bad. It is a fast and hard action more force is better than less force.

Op- great question and thanks for asking.

To those that gave educated answers unbiasedly, thank you as well.

To those that suggested anyone shouldn't be breeding because...
Really? Get off your soapbox, everyone has made mistakes in this hobby and all of us are "playing god" simply by choosing which animals are breeding, not to mention The countless other examples.
Your no better than anyone else simply because you use "other methods" or choose other paths.

My take is this, how do we really know they are "feeling" anything? I'm not suggesting that there brain doesnt react chemically to what we consider pain but we don't know if it's because it's "painful" or because there brain says "this isnt right".
The best answer is educate yourself and do what you feel right with. Just pray it never comes to that.

On a side note, those of you that type in other colors, realize that there might be a good number of people that may skip your comments completely because the text can't be seen well in different color themes and mobile devices.

Jeremy

CO2 is the wrong gas to kill anything, CO2 is especially bad for killing rhodents!


It works, CO2 kills rhodents, but in a brutal, painful, panic-causing suffocating way. its quite fast, there are videos showing it, but you can see the heavy breathing and the convulsions and cramps it causes in the chest region.

All mammals can detect a rise in blood CO2-levels, and from human experience we know it feels absolutely terrible. Breathing in pure CO2 also feels terrible, i tried it.

however mammals CANNOT detect a drop in oxygen levels. If oxygen levels drop, but the mammal can keep breathing normally and exhaling the CO2, the mammal notices absolutely nothing until consciousness is lost.

so, cheap alternatives: nitrogen or helium, or any other noble gas. Even hydrogen would work, but then you risk a serious explosion. It takes much longer, but is absolutely painless.

And the prime alternative would be nitrous oxide.

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Nitrous oxide, commonly known as laughing gas,^[1] is a chemical compound with the formula N₂O. It is an oxide of nitrogen. At room temperature, it is a colorless, non-flammable gas, with a slightly sweet odor and taste. It is used in surgery and dentistry for its anesthetic and analgesic effects. It is known as "laughing gas" due to the euphoric effects of inhaling it, a property that has led to its recreational use as a dissociative anesthetic. It is also used as an oxidizer in rocketry and in motor racing to increase the power output of engines. At elevated temperatures, nitrous oxide is a powerful oxidizer similar to molecular oxygen.

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USA legality:

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In the United States, possession of nitrous oxide is legal under federal law and is not subject to DEA purview.^[89] It is, however, regulated by the Food and Drug Administration under the Food Drug and Cosmetics Act; prosecution is possible under its "misbranding" clauses, prohibiting the sale or distribution of nitrous oxide for the purpose of human consumption.

Many states have laws regulating the possession, sale, and distribution of nitrous oxide. Such laws usually ban distribution to minors or limit the amount of nitrous oxide that may be sold without special license.^{[citation needed]} For example, in the state of California, possession for recreational use is prohibited and qualifies as a misdemeanor.^[90]

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how to get it:

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A whipped cream charger (also called whippits, whippets, nossies, or nangs) is a steel cylinder or cartridge filled with nitrous oxide (N₂O) that is used as a whipping agent in a whipped cream dispenser. The nitrous oxide in whipped cream chargers is also used by recreational drug users as an inhalant for its psychoactive effects.^{[citation needed]} Chargers are also used as a cheap source of nitrous oxide for small, powerful model rockets.

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If properly inhaled, this painlessly and without suffering knocks out a human within seconds.

Anyway, of all options and gases i mentioned, CO2 is BY FAR THE WORST CHOICE. The gas chamber method COULD be a good way to humanely kill animals, but not if you pick the WRONG GAS.

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I do not like this thread either....:( ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

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That's not at all what I meant. I mean life threatening problems that would kill them eventually anyway or prevent them from eating or functioning properly.

Thanks to everyone for your replies. It certainly isn't a pleasant subject to discuss, but as many of you have noted, I want to be prepared. Would anyone be kind enough to elaborate a little more on the procedures of pithing? Though I have heard it is the quickest way possible, I am worried I would mess up, and the last thing I want to do is cause my animals undue suffering. I tried cervical dislocation with my rats and....well...it didn't go well, and this is why we went with the animal welfare association CO2 standard.

Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it. When I gas my rodents they do not show signs of distress. They don't gasp or cringe or show any of the very obvious signs of discomfort or distress. I have seen it done improperly and agree 100% that it's awful.

CO2 is used widely in the pharmaceutical industry, which is one of the most strictly regulated and highly scrutinized industries out there. Using 24 point bold font to try to force your misinformation down people's throats doesn't contribute to the topic.

As to the comment about 'how do we know they feel anything' ... I won't be touching that with a 10 foot pole. It only takes a handful of brain cells to recognize utter gibberish.

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

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Originally Posted by Peoples

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

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Because that is not as fast as pithing. There is a claim it is less humane as well.


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Originally Posted by Peoples

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

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Less complicated, take a wide bladed knife and jam it straight down into the mid line of the head, closer to the neck. Check out the diagram someone already posted, the brain pain is not exactly between the eyes. It's closer to the neck but if you are using a large enough tool, a hatchling that is weak and deformed ought to be able to be very quickly culled. It would be best to be calm and in control because if you slip,you could hurt yourself as well. :/ I know it sucks to have to think about but you are doing the best thing if an animal is truly that messed up. I've seen too many examples of heads lasting longer than one would expect. It's why the guillotine went out of fashion, and considering that snakes have a slow metabolism, it may take them much longer to go out with that kind of method.

I would personally recommend that if one has a vet close by to get it euthenized properly. It was hard to put down my gal with a tumor, but the vet did housecalls. A few places will do emergency euthenasia and I would call around and see what you can do. I'm lucky enough to have a really awesome Dr.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1680226/




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Originally Posted by MrLang

Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it. When I gas my rodents they do not show signs of distress. They don't gasp or cringe or show any of the very obvious signs of discomfort or distress. I have seen it done improperly and agree 100% that it's awful.

CO2 is used widely in the pharmaceutical industry, which is one of the most strictly regulated and highly scrutinized industries out there. Using 24 point bold font to try to force your misinformation down people's throats doesn't contribute to the topic.

As to the comment about 'how do we know they feel anything' ... I won't be touching that with a 10 foot pole. It only takes a handful of brain cells to recognize utter gibberish.

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my post is based on only one assumption: I assume that detection of gases, and reaction to different gases, is basically the same in all mammals. That is not a far-fetched assumption, physiological similarities across all mammals are known and apparent. With this assumption, i now infer what rhodents feel in the gas chamber, based on human experience. I inhaled nitrogen, helium, hydrogen and CO2 for fun in the past (in a safe way, with experts present) to see what it feels like. I never inhaled nitrous oxide for fun, but for dental surgery once.

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Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it.

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Now that is wrong. If you increase the CO2 levels by 10%, it lowers the amount of available oxygen. But you obviously raised the CO2 levels, causing the rhodents to INHALE CO2 instead of exhaling it, and the blood CO2 level in the rhodents gets to a very unpleasant 10%. Lungs work both ways. Lungs bring your blood oxygen and CO2 levels closer to the atmospheric surrounding oxygen and CO2 levels, so if the air is fine you get rid of the CO2 your body produces and replace the oxygen your body consumes. So you have no way of killing rhodents with CO2 that doesnt involve rising blood CO2 levels, and that is exactly what i say should be avoided. Avoid CO2 buildup, and you avoid the feeling of being suffocated.

And then... switching to nitrogen is easy. nitrous oxide is a bit harder to get, but why not just switch to cheap & easy to get nitrogen? Then you can flood the whole container right away and dont need to worry at all. nitrogen naturally makes up 78% of the atmosphere, if you want to displace oxygen it should be the obvious choice over CO2, which naturally makes up 0.038% of the atmosphere. And we know which of these two gases humans can detect, in their body and when inhaling it. So why not be on the safe side? Its the same price and works with the same equipment.

and on-topic:

for a snake i would either use nitrous oxide to knock the snake out, then finish it with more pure nitrous oxide or nitrogen. we know it also works on reptiles because it is used for example to do surgery on reptiles.

or, i mean, im not living in the USA, but if i would, i would shoot the snake or have a friend shoot it. just get the snake and a gun and someone that can use the gun to a place where you can safely fire a gun, and do it this way. I couldnt bring myself to stab a snake in the head or to use some other tool on the snakes head to destroy it, but guns make it really really easy. i can think of no faster way to knock out the brain of the snake, a 600-1000 meters per second bullet just wins.

or just have a vet do it professionally.

CO2 won't work well as others have said. Reptiles go through spans of apnea, where they don't need air. So it would take a very very long time to euthanize via CO2.

Freezing is inhumane and very painful for the reasons stated before.

I agree with everything Mr Lang and Kitedemon has said. They are spot on with their posts.

The best way for humane at home euthanasia is blunt force trauma to the brain. When taken to a vet, they will do an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart.

Kurtilein, even when you have been provided with scientific sources and studies(in other threads) in regards to humane Co2 euthanasia, you still fight facts with your speculation. I don't understand why you can't accept that Co2 is fine to use for rodents if done correctly. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Peoples

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

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This is inhumane because the head can live for as long as half an hour and feel pain after decapitation.

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I'm no expert at all on snake physiology which is why I would take any deformed animals to SEAVS (Dr. Scott Stahl) for euthanasia.

I definitely do agree with MrLangs suggested ethics for breeding. If your going to breed you need to be willing to deal with these situations before you pair up your animals. It is your responsibility alone since the information for humane euthanasia is so abundant to figure out the most painless method to cull with before to breeding.

I would also say that you should be willing to take animals to exotic vets before purchasing them.

However, with smaller animals that I have to euthanize I do have my savannah monitor. I have only needed to do this once and it was with a live pinky. Should we have any severely deformed hatchling C. ciliatus, T. fasciata, N. Amyae, or N. levis levis we would also euthanize them with Skorge (Savannah Monitor). I doubt it is the most humane method though. With the pinky I think Skorge pretty much crushed its brain immediately so there was no suffering in the stomach acid but this might not happen everytime.

Sorry but having used the CO2 method of a small amount to put them to sleep and then a "flood" to kill them myself, on my own rats, in my own process I can say they did not suffer in any visible manner at all.

Giving them some CO2 made them a little wobbly and they laid down. I added more and they stopped moving completely, at which point I "flood" a lot in and within a moment they were dead.

There was NO thrashing, gasping, spasms or any indication of pain or distress. Yes, if you drop a rat into CO2(pure CO2) then it will be painful and the rat will struggle. It doesn't happen that way if you do it right.

The American Humane has researched thoroughly the manners of euthanasia and you can look up all the studies. The accepted forms they endorse include proper CO2 and pithing the brain.

If I have to kill a python, I would probably do it with a large hammer strike to the head in the brain pan. Instant death. Yes, it's brutal. But yes, it instantly destroys the brain. No brain = no pain. Pithing is the more focused version, where you scramble JUST the brain. I worry that trying to enter the brain cavity, I may miss the brain(it's not very large) and cause pain. Thus the hammer strike. If someone is more confident in hitting the brain with the first attempt at pithing, it would indeed be another instant death, equaling no pain.

Getting pure nitrogen, nitrous oxide, or other gases is not so easy as running down to the store to pick up a canister. If you have access, fine. BUT if nitrogen flooding is so much more humane and cheap and easy, then why wouldn't the American Humane and all the labs and such being using it already?

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Originally Posted by satomi325

CO2 won't work well as others have said. Reptiles go through spans of apnea, where they don't need air. So it would take a very very long time to euthanize via CO2.

Freezing is inhumane and very painful for the reasons stated before.

I agree with everything Mr Lang and Kitedemon has said. They are spot on with their posts.

The best way for humane at home euthanasia is blunt force trauma to the brain. When taken to a vet, they will do an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart.

Kurtilein, even when you have been provided with scientific sources and studies(in other threads) in regards to humane Co2 euthanasia, you still fight facts with your speculation. I don't understand why you can't accept that Co2 is fine to use for rodents if done correctly. :confused:

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i have seen studies about how to kill rhodents with CO2, however, i have never seen a study comparing CO2 to alternatives like nitrogen, helium or nitrous oxide. I say nitrogen, a noble gas, or nitrous oxide are superior, and noone has disproven that claim so far. I see them as studies about how to kill animals with a poorly chosen and problematic gas, showing that if you do everything right it can still be humane, by looking at the reactions of animals that cannot talk. I think the use of CO2 is purely based on tradition and on the fact that it works a bit faster than nitrogen or a noble gas.

Also the studies dont take into account human experience of exposure to CO2. They look at how rhodents/animals react, and when there are no apparent/conclusive signs of distress they think its fine. But that immediately flooding with pure CO2 does cause distress is obvious. Only humans can talk, and human judgement about the different gases is crystal clear. There we have test subjects that can precisely tell you how different gases feel, in modern english.

so, go ahead, show me studies that include a comparison of different gases and/or that include human experience. When i can get 4 or 5 different gases in the same pressurized cans at about the same price, i know i wont pick CO2, and i think noone should.

There are comparison studies out there; however, I don't know why you'd wanna see them when it's been determined that using CO2 is a perfectly humane way to kill rats...

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

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And the prime alternative would be nitrous oxide.

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i would imagine so. ever inhaled nitrous oxide? might actually make their demise pleasurable rather than just painless. lol if not pleasurable, so loopy they wouldnt care what was going on.

Ok. I've been on vacation without a pc and internet access till now.
If more sources are needed, I can find more.

Nitrogen, argon(a noble gas), and CO may be acceptable for euthanasia, but according to the University of Texas, "there is no clear advantages, which is why they are rarely if ever used."
If they and the other gases you listed were more effective and humane, then CO2 wouldn't be the standard gas of choice for euthanasia.
I work in a laboratory at one of the top research universities, not to mention the number one veterinary school in the US. I have euthanized a vast amount of rodents in the lab and at home with my own personal feeder colony. I have seen and done this first hand. CO2 is humane if administered correctly. Please refer to the IACUC and AVMA protocols for responsible euthanasia use. CO2 isn't used based on 'tradition'. CO2 isn't used just because it is fast. Euthanasia doesn't mean fast. Euthanasia is the act of inducing humane death in an animal by a method that induces rapid loss of consciousness and death with a minimum of pain, discomfort or distress..... It's used because it has been proven as humane method of euthanasia. (Equal or more so than other gases. However, they can be used in combination with CO2.)

Some studies that show adverse effects of Nitrogen/Argon euthanasia:

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Our study indicates that rats are averse to argon-induced hypoxia over a range of flow rates, and the physiological effects of hypoxia become aversive at approximately 7.7% O2. These results suggest that argon is not a suitable alternative to CO2 for the euthanasia of rats.

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I. Joanna Makowska, Lee Niel, Richard D. Kirkden, Daniel M. Weary, Rats show aversion to argon-induced hypoxia, Applied Animal Behaviour Science, Volume 114, Issues 3–4, 1 December 2008, Pages 572-581, ISSN 0168-1591, 10.1016/j.applanim.2008.04.005.

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Specific behaviors were observed that might relate directly to pain and distress during gas exposure. No rats in either the argon or CO2 treatment group showed any obvious escape behaviors during gas exposure. Shaking occurred in 3 animals during the baseline period and in one animal from the argon treatment group during gas exposure. Grooming of the face was observed in one animal during CO2 exposure and in 2 animals during argon exposure. During argon exposure, rats showed adverse behaviors before they appeared to lose consciousness. All of the argon-exposed rats showed hyperreflexia or seizures; these occurred both before and after recumbency without tone. In addition, 3 of 7 argon-exposed rats showed back arching with an open mouth, which was termed abnormal gasping. This behavior always occurred before recumbency without tone.

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Burkholder TH, Niel L, Weed JL, Brinster LR, Bacher JD, Foltz CJ. 2010. Comparison of carbon dioxide and argon euthanasia: effects on behavior, heart rate, and respiratory lesions in rats. J Am Assoc Lab Anim Sci 49:448–453.

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It has been proposed that Ar is superior to CO2 because it is not irritating to animals and therefore does not produce distress. However, we observed that approximately 100% Ar produced significant increases in MAP within the 1st minute of exposure suggesting that exposure to high concentrations of Ar may be stressful. In fact, the severe hypoxia or anoxia resulting from breathing 100% Ar is expected to be stressful. If this expectation is true, then exposure to approximately 100% N2, which also is expected to produce severe hypoxia or anoxia, likely is equally stressful

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(MAP, mean arterial blood pressure)
According to the Journal of the American Association for Laboratory Animal Science, Volume 45, Number 2, March 2006 , pp. 21-25(5), they say that CO2 is effective for inducing unconsciousness and euthanasia. Ar appeared to be effective, but produced hyperflexia and tachycardia effects. They also concluded that N2 is not satisfactory for euthanizing rats or inducing unconsciousness in them.


Studies that show CO2 with no adverse effects:

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Our results showed more rapid falls in pulse rate and blood pressure in rats euthanized in a chamber precharged with carbon dioxide (CO2), when compared with rats euthanized more slowly, but death still took over 5 min in the former group. There was no behavioral evidence of pain or distress in either group during euthanasia.

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Smith W, Harrap SB. 1997. Behavioural and cardiovascular responses of rats to euthanasia using carbon dioxide gas. Lab Anim 31:337–346. [PubMed]

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A method of inducing euthanasia by carbon dioxide (CO2) inhalation in the home cage of an animal is described and tested for distress by behavioural as well as by hormonal measures. There were no signs of distress by behavioural or by hormonal changes.

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Hackbarth H., Küppers N., Bohnet W. (2000). Euthanasia of rats with carbon dioxide – animal welfare aspects. Lab. Anim. 34, 91–96. doi: 10.1258/002367700780578055. [PubMed]


And another note, I've inhaled nitrous oxide for an oral surgery. It's probably a personal thing, but it did nothing for me. :\

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

i have seen studies about how to kill rhodents with CO2, however, i have never seen a study comparing CO2 to alternatives like nitrogen, helium or nitrous oxide. I say nitrogen, a noble gas, or nitrous oxide are superior, and noone has disproven that claim so far. I see them as studies about how to kill animals with a poorly chosen and problematic gas, showing that if you do everything right it can still be humane, by looking at the reactions of animals that cannot talk. I think the use of CO2 is purely based on tradition and on the fact that it works a bit faster than nitrogen or a noble gas.

Also the studies dont take into account human experience of exposure to CO2. They look at how rhodents/animals react, and when there are no apparent/conclusive signs of distress they think its fine. But that immediately flooding with pure CO2 does cause distress is obvious. Only humans can talk, and human judgement about the different gases is crystal clear. There we have test subjects that can precisely tell you how different gases feel, in modern english.

so, go ahead, show me studies that include a comparison of different gases and/or that include human experience. When i can get 4 or 5 different gases in the same pressurized cans at about the same price, i know i wont pick CO2, and i think noone should.

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Sorry, but I think that the burden of proof is on you for this one.

Oh baby, TKO. Nikki's lookin gooooood after landing that hit!

Freezing is recommended for smaller reptiles (under 1 Lb/454 grams) only. Larger reptiles are injected for euthanasia.
Some people inject the smaller reptiles due to ice crystallization being potentially painful if a state of stupor is not present when this occurs.

Seeing the use of multiple peer-reviewed journal articles in order to make your case makes me warm and fuzzy inside. :love:

Well done Nikki! :gj:

BB gun for 300 Alex

Since some dudes feel bullets are just fine....this way it won't be as dangerous and its powerful enough to do the job.

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Originally Posted by lyfoti05

Seeing the use of multiple peer-reviewed journal articles in order to make your case makes me warm and fuzzy inside. :love:

Well done Nikki! :gj:

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Thank you! Couldn't have done it without you. :)

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Originally Posted by Kurtilein

i have seen studies about how to kill rhodents with CO2, however, i have never seen a study comparing CO2 to alternatives like nitrogen, helium or nitrous oxide. I say nitrogen, a noble gas, or nitrous oxide are superior, and noone has disproven that claim so far. I see them as studies about how to kill animals with a poorly chosen and problematic gas, showing that if you do everything right it can still be humane, by looking at the reactions of animals that cannot talk. I think the use of CO2 is purely based on tradition and on the fact that it works a bit faster than nitrogen or a noble gas.

Also the studies dont take into account human experience of exposure to CO2. They look at how rhodents/animals react, and when there are no apparent/conclusive signs of distress they think its fine. But that immediately flooding with pure CO2 does cause distress is obvious. Only humans can talk, and human judgement about the different gases is crystal clear. There we have test subjects that can precisely tell you how different gases feel, in modern english.

so, go ahead, show me studies that include a comparison of different gases and/or that include human experience. When i can get 4 or 5 different gases in the same pressurized cans at about the same price, i know i wont pick CO2, and i think noone should.

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Here's another.

J Am Assoc Lab Anim Sci. 2006 Mar;45(2):21-5.
Comparison of carbon dioxide, argon, and nitrogen for inducing unconsciousness or euthanasia of rats.
Sharp J, Azar T, Lawson D. Department of Physiology, Wayne State University School of Medicine, Detroit, MI, USA.

Abstract

We compared CO(2), Ar, and N(2) for inducing unconsciousness and euthanasia of Sprague-Dawley rats. We determined time to unconsciousness and monitored heart rate (HR) and mean arterial blood pressure (MAP) by radiotelemetry to assess stress, recovery after exposure, and time of death. Unconsciousness (mean +/- standard error) occurred 24 +/- 3, 87 +/- 8, and 93 +/- 8 s after short-term exposure to CO(2), Ar, and N(2), respectively. During exposure, CO(2) depressed HR, whereas Ar and N(2) increased HR. Upon removal from the chamber, rats' HR rapidly normalized after CO(2) or N(2) but remained elevated for 60 min after Ar. During exposure, all agents depressed MAP, which returned to resting levels 10 to 50 min after rats' removal from the chamber. For euthanasia, CO(2) at approximately 100% induced unconsciousness in 37 +/- 3 s, increased and then depressed MAP and HR, and caused death at 188 +/- 15 s. CO(2) at approximately 30% induced unconsciousness in 150 +/- 15 s, decreased HR and MAP, and induced death at 440 +/- 9 s. Ar at approximately 100% increased MAP but decreased HR, induced unconsciousness with hyperreflexia at 54 +/- 4 s, and caused death at 197 +/- 20 s. N(2) at approximately 100% decreased MAP but not HR and produced unconsciousness with hyperreflexia at 164 +/- 17 s and death at 426 +/- 28 s. We conclude that CO(2) effectively produced unconsciousness and euthanasia, but we were unable to ascertain distress. Ar also appears effective but produced hyperreflexia and tachycardia. N(2) was ineffective.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16542038

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I do not like this thread either....:( ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

Sent from my H866C using Tapatalk 2

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I know it may seem cruel, but there are snakes born with such severe deformities that they won't make it. Would you rather see said snake suffer, starve and have to be in pain, rather than putting it down before it has a chance to suffer? I'm fairly sure the OP isn't talking about a kinked tail, born with only one eye.