Will My CO2 Chamber Kill Hatchling Balls Too?

[hotelvoodoo]

Thanks to everyone for your replies. It certainly isn't a pleasant subject to discuss, but as many of you have noted, I want to be prepared. Would anyone be kind enough to elaborate a little more on the procedures of pithing? Though I have heard it is the quickest way possible, I am worried I would mess up, and the last thing I want to do is cause my animals undue suffering. I tried cervical dislocation with my rats and....well...it didn't go well, and this is why we went with the animal welfare association CO2 standard.

[MrLang]

Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it. When I gas my rodents they do not show signs of distress. They don't gasp or cringe or show any of the very obvious signs of discomfort or distress. I have seen it done improperly and agree 100% that it's awful.

CO2 is used widely in the pharmaceutical industry, which is one of the most strictly regulated and highly scrutinized industries out there. Using 24 point bold font to try to force your misinformation down people's throats doesn't contribute to the topic.

As to the comment about 'how do we know they feel anything' ... I won't be touching that with a 10 foot pole. It only takes a handful of brain cells to recognize utter gibberish.

[Peoples]

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

[kitedemon]

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

Because that is not as fast as pithing. There is a claim it is less humane as well.


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[darkbloodwyvern]

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

Less complicated, take a wide bladed knife and jam it straight down into the mid line of the head, closer to the neck. Check out the diagram someone already posted, the brain pain is not exactly between the eyes. It's closer to the neck but if you are using a large enough tool, a hatchling that is weak and deformed ought to be able to be very quickly culled. It would be best to be calm and in control because if you slip,you could hurt yourself as well. :/ I know it sucks to have to think about but you are doing the best thing if an animal is truly that messed up. I've seen too many examples of heads lasting longer than one would expect. It's why the guillotine went out of fashion, and considering that snakes have a slow metabolism, it may take them much longer to go out with that kind of method.

I would personally recommend that if one has a vet close by to get it euthenized properly. It was hard to put down my gal with a tumor, but the vet did housecalls. A few places will do emergency euthenasia and I would call around and see what you can do. I'm lucky enough to have a really awesome Dr.

[kitedemon]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1680226/




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[Pythonfriend]

Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it. When I gas my rodents they do not show signs of distress. They don't gasp or cringe or show any of the very obvious signs of discomfort or distress. I have seen it done improperly and agree 100% that it's awful.

CO2 is used widely in the pharmaceutical industry, which is one of the most strictly regulated and highly scrutinized industries out there. Using 24 point bold font to try to force your misinformation down people's throats doesn't contribute to the topic.

As to the comment about 'how do we know they feel anything' ... I won't be touching that with a 10 foot pole. It only takes a handful of brain cells to recognize utter gibberish.

my post is based on only one assumption: I assume that detection of gases, and reaction to different gases, is basically the same in all mammals. That is not a far-fetched assumption, physiological similarities across all mammals are known and apparent. With this assumption, i now infer what rhodents feel in the gas chamber, based on human experience. I inhaled nitrogen, helium, hydrogen and CO2 for fun in the past (in a safe way, with experts present) to see what it feels like. I never inhaled nitrous oxide for fun, but for dental surgery once.

Somewhat off topic, the proper method for rodent euthanasia via CO2 involves introducing the CO2 at very low quantities, thereby lowering the O2 levels. This causes the rodent to lose consciousness without pain as you described. After the animal is unconscious, you 'flood' the chamber with CO2, which kills it.

Now that is wrong. If you increase the CO2 levels by 10%, it lowers the amount of available oxygen. But you obviously raised the CO2 levels, causing the rhodents to INHALE CO2 instead of exhaling it, and the blood CO2 level in the rhodents gets to a very unpleasant 10%. Lungs work both ways. Lungs bring your blood oxygen and CO2 levels closer to the atmospheric surrounding oxygen and CO2 levels, so if the air is fine you get rid of the CO2 your body produces and replace the oxygen your body consumes. So you have no way of killing rhodents with CO2 that doesnt involve rising blood CO2 levels, and that is exactly what i say should be avoided. Avoid CO2 buildup, and you avoid the feeling of being suffocated.

And then... switching to nitrogen is easy. nitrous oxide is a bit harder to get, but why not just switch to cheap & easy to get nitrogen? Then you can flood the whole container right away and dont need to worry at all. nitrogen naturally makes up 78% of the atmosphere, if you want to displace oxygen it should be the obvious choice over CO2, which naturally makes up 0.038% of the atmosphere. And we know which of these two gases humans can detect, in their body and when inhaling it. So why not be on the safe side? Its the same price and works with the same equipment.

[Pythonfriend]

and on-topic:

for a snake i would either use nitrous oxide to knock the snake out, then finish it with more pure nitrous oxide or nitrogen. we know it also works on reptiles because it is used for example to do surgery on reptiles.

or, i mean, im not living in the USA, but if i would, i would shoot the snake or have a friend shoot it. just get the snake and a gun and someone that can use the gun to a place where you can safely fire a gun, and do it this way. I couldnt bring myself to stab a snake in the head or to use some other tool on the snakes head to destroy it, but guns make it really really easy. i can think of no faster way to knock out the brain of the snake, a 600-1000 meters per second bullet just wins.

or just have a vet do it professionally.

[satomi325]

CO2 won't work well as others have said. Reptiles go through spans of apnea, where they don't need air. So it would take a very very long time to euthanize via CO2.

Freezing is inhumane and very painful for the reasons stated before.

I agree with everything Mr Lang and Kitedemon has said. They are spot on with their posts.

The best way for humane at home euthanasia is blunt force trauma to the brain. When taken to a vet, they will do an overdose of anesthesia or a cardiac puncture to the heart.

Kurtilein, even when you have been provided with scientific sources and studies(in other threads) in regards to humane Co2 euthanasia, you still fight facts with your speculation. I don't understand why you can't accept that Co2 is fine to use for rodents if done correctly.

Just cut the head off, why is this so complicated.
It's the down and dirty side of breeding yes we know but why complicate it any more than it needs to.

This is inhumane because the head can live for as long as half an hour and feel pain after decapitation.

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[OctagonGecko729]

I'm no expert at all on snake physiology which is why I would take any deformed animals to SEAVS (Dr. Scott Stahl) for euthanasia.

I definitely do agree with MrLangs suggested ethics for breeding. If your going to breed you need to be willing to deal with these situations before you pair up your animals. It is your responsibility alone since the information for humane euthanasia is so abundant to figure out the most painless method to cull with before to breeding.

I would also say that you should be willing to take animals to exotic vets before purchasing them.

However, with smaller animals that I have to euthanize I do have my savannah monitor. I have only needed to do this once and it was with a live pinky. Should we have any severely deformed hatchling C. ciliatus, T. fasciata, N. Amyae, or N. levis levis we would also euthanize them with Skorge (Savannah Monitor). I doubt it is the most humane method though. With the pinky I think Skorge pretty much crushed its brain immediately so there was no suffering in the stomach acid but this might not happen everytime.