Will My CO2 Chamber Kill Hatchling Balls Too?

[MrLang]

Freezing is not a humane method of killing a reptile, nor is CO2. If you don't have it in you to destroy the brain of a hatchling that's deformed enough to likely be experiencing excruciating pain right out of the egg, you really shouldn't be breeding them. I doubt many people have access to lethal injection, so we'll pretend that's off the table. Lots of people think 'oohhh ill put this snake in with this snake and make a pretty pokemon.' I don't mean to belittle our hobby, but there is a HUGE amount of that kind of behavior going on. You put the snake in the freezer because you 'don't have it in you' and subject it to unimaginable pain and trauma that way. That is not fair to the animal you forced into the world. That is not ethical animal breeder behavior and you should stick to animal keeping and not breeding.

[kitedemon]

There is a lot of ethics with this question.

CO2 and Freezing are not good methods.

Pithing destroying the brain case is the most efficient way short of a vet.

That said I feel that if you are breeding you should be prepared to euthanize this way it is part of the responsibility of breeding. If you can't bring yourself you should not be breeding.

For the general pet owner I believe the answer is different. Euthanizing a pet is not expected it does however occur. Pithing is the best home way, however botched is worse than anything else. For a pet owner the fastest way that that individual can manage is the best way. If my pet snakes were seriously hurt and needed to be mercy euthanized I hope I would be able to pith and save the agony. My partner is disabled, and tender hearted, there is no way she would be able to pith our pets. I work 45 min at best away from home, not soon enough freezing would be better than suffering longer. In her case freezing is better than nothing.

Mercy euthanizing is about the fastest efficient way to end suffering. A general pet owner I feel at least does not need to be prepared to euthanize a pet. Breeders I feel should be prepared to do this it has a much higher chance of being needed.

[MrLang]

When you freeze a reptile, ice crystals form in the cells before the brain dies. This means the animal feels its own eyes freezing, cracking, and bursting before it actually dies. You wouldn't know that by looks though. What you'd see is the animal sit very still and probably appear to be 'going to sleep.' In case this needs to be spelled out - they are cold-blooded animals. Without warmth they can't move - they become paralyzed.

If this needs to be translated to 'human terms' this is basically like being pinned down and microwaved without the ability to scream or thrash about because you're put under a drug that causes you to be physically paralyzed.

I'm not saying this to be brutal, I'm saying this to translate reality to people who seem to be incapable of educating themselves properly or understanding the topic.

Here is a nice picture that I do not own the rights to:



It's your ethical responsibility to internalize this information before incubating snake eggs.

[MisterKyte]

I'm not really trying to drag out an ethics thing here but just as a fact, snakes are ectotherms and derive heat from external sources and lack the ability to efficiently conserve their body temperatures so I would assume that death by hypothermia would actually be a very quick process for them. I'm going to go do some research on the topic but just using my intuition alone, it seems like a logical conclusion to draw.

- - - Updated - - -

When you freeze a reptile, ice crystals form in the cells before the brain dies. This means the animal feels its own eyes freezing, cracking, and bursting before it actually dies. You wouldn't know that by looks though. What you'd see is the animal sit very still and probably appear to be 'going to sleep.' In case this needs to be spelled out - they are cold-blooded animals. Without warmth they can't move - they become paralyzed.

If this needs to be translated to 'human terms' this is basically like being pinned down and microwaved without the ability to scream or thrash about because you're put under a drug that causes you to be physically paralyzed.

I'm not saying this to be brutal, I'm saying this to translate reality to people who seem to be incapable of educating themselves properly or understanding the topic.

Here is a nice picture that I do not own the rights to:



It's your ethical responsibility to internalize this information before incubating snake eggs.

Guess I should have checked the thread before replying.

[Xaila]

Sorry to get into gory details here, but what precisely is the quickest and most humane way to 'pith'? I'm assuming we're not talking about a swift decapitation, but something more like putting something sharp through where the brain would be? (I'm sorry for getting so specific, it's a really unpleasant topic, but I'd rather know)

[MisterKyte]

Sorry to get into gory details here, but what precisely is the quickest and most humane way to 'pith'? I'm assuming we're not talking about a swift decapitation, but something more like putting something sharp through where the brain would be? (I'm sorry for getting so specific, it's a really unpleasant topic, but I'd rather know)

I definitively know decapitation won't kill a snake quickly, there are studies that suggest the heads can stay alive for extended periods of time even, but I know that some people just use a pair of kitchen shears to split the head in half.

[kitedemon]

Pithing and decapitation are not the same. Pithing is quite literally destroying the brane case. I have only ever done this once and hope never to do so again! In my case a wild bird but it is the same. I used a pocket knife it is what I had. The blade is pushed through the top of the skull, and then quickly moved side to side (while holding the skull still) this scrambles the brain. I have seen it done by crushing the skull. Reptiles have strong bones so hesitation is very bad. It is a fast and hard action more force is better than less force.

[JDN]

Op- great question and thanks for asking.

To those that gave educated answers unbiasedly, thank you as well.

To those that suggested anyone shouldn't be breeding because...
Really? Get off your soapbox, everyone has made mistakes in this hobby and all of us are "playing god" simply by choosing which animals are breeding, not to mention The countless other examples.
Your no better than anyone else simply because you use "other methods" or choose other paths.

My take is this, how do we really know they are "feeling" anything? I'm not suggesting that there brain doesnt react chemically to what we consider pain but we don't know if it's because it's "painful" or because there brain says "this isnt right".
The best answer is educate yourself and do what you feel right with. Just pray it never comes to that.

On a side note, those of you that type in other colors, realize that there might be a good number of people that may skip your comments completely because the text can't be seen well in different color themes and mobile devices.

Jeremy

[Pythonfriend]

CO2 is the wrong gas to kill anything, CO2 is especially bad for killing rhodents!


It works, CO2 kills rhodents, but in a brutal, painful, panic-causing suffocating way. its quite fast, there are videos showing it, but you can see the heavy breathing and the convulsions and cramps it causes in the chest region.

All mammals can detect a rise in blood CO2-levels, and from human experience we know it feels absolutely terrible. Breathing in pure CO2 also feels terrible, i tried it.

however mammals CANNOT detect a drop in oxygen levels. If oxygen levels drop, but the mammal can keep breathing normally and exhaling the CO2, the mammal notices absolutely nothing until consciousness is lost.

so, cheap alternatives: nitrogen or helium, or any other noble gas. Even hydrogen would work, but then you risk a serious explosion. It takes much longer, but is absolutely painless.

And the prime alternative would be nitrous oxide.

Nitrous oxide, commonly known as laughing gas,^[1] is a chemical compound with the formula N₂O. It is an oxide of nitrogen. At room temperature, it is a colorless, non-flammable gas, with a slightly sweet odor and taste. It is used in surgery and dentistry for its anesthetic and analgesic effects. It is known as "laughing gas" due to the euphoric effects of inhaling it, a property that has led to its recreational use as a dissociative anesthetic. It is also used as an oxidizer in rocketry and in motor racing to increase the power output of engines. At elevated temperatures, nitrous oxide is a powerful oxidizer similar to molecular oxygen.

USA legality:

In the United States, possession of nitrous oxide is legal under federal law and is not subject to DEA purview.^[89] It is, however, regulated by the Food and Drug Administration under the Food Drug and Cosmetics Act; prosecution is possible under its "misbranding" clauses, prohibiting the sale or distribution of nitrous oxide for the purpose of human consumption.

Many states have laws regulating the possession, sale, and distribution of nitrous oxide. Such laws usually ban distribution to minors or limit the amount of nitrous oxide that may be sold without special license.^{[citation needed]} For example, in the state of California, possession for recreational use is prohibited and qualifies as a misdemeanor.^[90]

how to get it:

A whipped cream charger (also called whippits, whippets, nossies, or nangs) is a steel cylinder or cartridge filled with nitrous oxide (N₂O) that is used as a whipping agent in a whipped cream dispenser. The nitrous oxide in whipped cream chargers is also used by recreational drug users as an inhalant for its psychoactive effects.^{[citation needed]} Chargers are also used as a cheap source of nitrous oxide for small, powerful model rockets.

If properly inhaled, this painlessly and without suffering knocks out a human within seconds.

Anyway, of all options and gases i mentioned, CO2 is BY FAR THE WORST CHOICE. The gas chamber method COULD be a good way to humanely kill animals, but not if you pick the WRONG GAS.

[hotelvoodoo]

I do not like this thread either.... ur already thinking of killing babies before anything has hatched??? Besides, just because a baby has a deformity, that doesnt justify any need to kill them. In our collection, we have three snakes with deformities. I would NEVER think about killing them.Just because they dont qualify as breeders, or for a spot in your collection,doesnt mean they cant be given away or sold cheaply as fine pets!

Sent from my H866C using Tapatalk 2

That's not at all what I meant. I mean life threatening problems that would kill them eventually anyway or prevent them from eating or functioning properly.