So just how common and how contagious IS IBD?

I just wanted to know a bit more about Inclusion Body Disease, because Ive heard so many terrible things about it, like it wiping out whole collections, and some python keepers refusing to keep boas at all because of it, etc. I mean, just exactly HOW common is it? I cant recall that many instances of it on here...and just HOW contagious is it?? When I think about those of us who use super strict quarantine practices, I also think about other things too, like shows. Yea, hand sanitizer is used and everything, but you cant help think about the thousands of boas and pythons kept in close proximity in the same large "room", along with many other species...even wild caught! I mean, those breeders that do shows, do they quarantine the for sale animals everytime they come home from shows??? A few of my friends vend at shows, and they vend at least once every other month, some every month! It just can be a little concerning but confusing at the same time. Is IBD the WORST disease/illness that could happen to a beautiful ball collection, or is there something else out there even worse? Idk...

Not a single comment??? :confused: meh.

Sent from my H866C using Tapatalk 2

I was under the impression based on some info I recall from some of the more trusted BP people here that IBD happens in boas and not ball pythons.

Don't quote me on that, though.

Pythons can get IBD too, and it kills pythons much more quickly than it kills boas.

If you search IBD on the forums you will find many threads. Google has a lot of information too, I would search both "IBD" and "Inclusion Body Disease."

Here is the very first link.

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/I...n_Body_Disease

Also I don't do shows very often and he's we quarantine after getting back from shows. Not willing to risk it! Not just IBD, but crypto, mites, etc. some have said that 90 days isn't long enough of a quarantine to rule out these diseases, and maybe it's not. But it's better than NO quarantine. There is an alarming amount of people who ignore quarantine completely.

There's really only a handful of people I buy snakes from now though and we generally get more than one snake at a time, so with them being from the same vendor they are usually quarantined together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Also I don't do shows very often and yes we quarantine after getting back from shows.

---

Oops left that post too long before I could edit it, was typing on my phone before.

Sadly there is very little known about python IBD, boas yes ,tons. There also are a lot of incorrect info out there. A while back I had a chance to correspond with E Jacobson. Likely the foremost doctor studying IBD (the only perhaps?) His replies to my questions were brief and unsettling. There are a number of other messages back and forth over the past 2 years. The net result is it is unknown about the how contagious, how fast it can kill, about how long the animal can carry IBD, it is uncommon. I would suggest that everyone reading this donate some cash to the IBD studies (university of Florida vet program) and that if you are really concerned they (E Jacobson) can do IBD testing. It is not cheap however and needs to be prepped by a vet.

1. I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms?

I am not aware of any information about this,

2. Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

Not that I am aware of.

3. If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

I do not know anyone who is focused on studying IBD in ball pythons.

EJacobson

Quote:

---

I just wanted to know a bit more about Inclusion Body Disease, because Ive heard so many terrible things about it, like it wiping out whole collections, and some python keepers refusing to keep boas at all because of it, etc. I mean, just exactly HOW common is it? I cant recall that many instances of it on here...and just HOW contagious is it?? When I think about those of us who use super strict quarantine practices, I also think about other things too, like shows. Yea, hand sanitizer is used and everything, but you cant help think about the thousands of boas and pythons kept in close proximity in the same large "room", along with many other species...even wild caught! I mean, those breeders that do shows, do they quarantine the for sale animals everytime they come home from shows??? A few of my friends vend at shows, and they vend at least once every other month, some every month! It just can be a little concerning but confusing at the same time. Is IBD the WORST disease/illness that could happen to a beautiful ball collection, or is there something else out there even worse? Idk...

---

IBD is less common than you would think, but still a serious risk that should be kept in mind when quarantining (if for no other reason than to motivate yourself to keep strict quarantine procedures).

It is very contagious, but is most commonly caught through mite infestations, and contact with bodily fluids from infected snakes.

There's no way to know if a certain breeder quarantines their animals or not. I'm sure that some do, and others do not. I wouldn't worry about IBD being passed from one vendor's table to another, though.

IBD is one of the worst diseases your collection could get at this time. It's a virus with no known cure or treatment.

Right now there are some people working on a treatment for IBD. The following video is worth watching, for sure.

http://youtu.be/k8tjfB0fP4w

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I wouldn't worry about IBD being passed from one vendor's table to another, though.

---

I would. Do you know how many people come home from a show with mites? One vendor has ONE mite, and if that mite makes its way on to someone's sweater, and that someone holds one of your snakes, or it drops off onto your display, then BAM, you have mites. Since this seems to be the most common way of getting IBD, I'd be very careful. I'm even toying with the idea of using only PAM-treated aspen chips in my displays for the next show, just in case. Something that takes minutes to do but could save a lot.

I know. It's being overly paranoid. But is there really such a thing when it comes to diseases like this, and snake collections worth so much? Not just in the sense of a dollar-value (though that is quite significant), but all of my time, effort, and heart put in to this hobby. I don't think it's being overly paranoid.

oh, the thread got some replies :)

what i gathered online is.... its very rare in pythons, more common in boas. Boas can carry it hidden for a while, pythons quickly develop neuro problems and die. people say it can kill a python as quickly as within a few days to 2 weeks.

its quite contagious, when snakes come in contact or something comes into contact with more than one snake, but it doesnt seem to go from one enclosure to the other if everything is hygienic. Maybe its as contageous as the flu, except that snakes extremely rarely sneeze and because of that just dont produce aerosoles. however, combine it with mites, and it becomes extremely contageous, mites can transmit the disease and like to switch enclosures and explore to find new victims. Even if highly contageous, unless snakes start whistling and hissing like crazy if they get the disease (have never heared about that), or unless you do something unhygienic like re-using substrate, there is just no way it could spread through a collection unless mites are involved. A virus cannot walk, it sticks to stuff and permeates all bodily fluids or in the worst case occasionally flies with the air current in a tiny sneeze droplet. Mites do walk, they move around a lot.

so, not much is known, the only thing im quite sure about after reading up is the issue of transmission via blood-sucking mites.

if we could in addition manage to really confirm that it kills pythons quickly, then this would mean: Python keepers dont need to worry much about this disease, as long as some quarantining is practised and the collection is kept 100% free of mites and parasites.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurtilein

oh, the thread got some replies :)
if we could in addition manage to really confirm that it kills pythons quickly, then this would mean: Python keepers dont need to worry much about this disease, as long as some quarantining is practised and the collection is kept 100% free of mites and parasites.

---

It is suspected that the incubation period is fairly long, boas absolutely, but pythons too there is at least one case that has had no known vector of infection for at least 4 months. There is no confirmation but the evidence is pointing to a long incubation period not a short one. 4-12 months incubation is likely, not confirmed but possible. The vector is also not understood it is suspected that mites are a strong contender but there are cases of no mites present and it still spreading as well. I'd suggest at least 6 months and perhaps longer unless testing has been done. (IBD and Ophidian Paramyxovirus) There is basically nothing certain in pythons, there has been no studies done at all. The internet is full of myths and rumours. Information on serious medical issues should be coming from research that is published, or from scholarly articles written by researchers. To our great loss no one is working with any pythons and IBD there are no facts only best guesses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

I would. Do you know how many people come home from a show with mites? One vendor has ONE mite, and if that mite makes its way on to someone's sweater, and that someone holds one of your snakes, or it drops off onto your display, then BAM, you have mites. Since this seems to be the most common way of getting IBD, I'd be very careful. I'm even toying with the idea of using only PAM-treated aspen chips in my displays for the next show, just in case. Something that takes minutes to do but could save a lot.

I know. It's being overly paranoid. But is there really such a thing when it comes to diseases like this, and snake collections worth so much? Not just in the sense of a dollar-value (though that is quite significant), but all of my time, effort, and heart put in to this hobby. I don't think it's being overly paranoid.

---

Well I doubt I will ever vend at a show, but most reputable breeders don't seem to let people hold their snakes, which is why it doesn't seem like a big risk to me. In every case of IBD I've read about, it happened after getting a new snake, not from a reptile show.

A couple of things:

- IBD is not the worst thing that can happen to a collection.

- IBD does not kill pythons quickly.

- No one knows how long a python with IBD can remain asymptomatic.

- Pythons do not alway present with neurological symptoms.

The spread of misinformation - whether due to copying info from incorrect or outdated sources - is a real issue in this hobby.

Some of the earliest cases of IBD, the ones that gained traction in the reptile community, the ones that described whole collection dying off like flies, were never ever confirmed as IBD. In fact one of the most "famous" was later proven to be OPMV. Other cases were later, upon careful reexamination, hypothesized to also have been OPMV but were never confirmed because no necropsies were ever done.

Most of what is parroted on the forums came from parroted posts on other forums that had their painful birth on the crap smeared pages of Anapsid.

The very fact that most people automatically ASSume IBD when a snake presents with neurological symptoms is a testament to the depth that this misinformation has permeated our hobby. IBD more often than not, presents as a series of subclinical infections - stomatitis, anorexia, RIs that clear and then come back, etc.

Necropsies done on supposedly clear animals revealed that many healthy boas carry the virus but remain symptomatic - estimates have been thrown out there that perhaps as many as one third of the boas in captivity may be asymptomatic carriers.

A logical step would then be to ASSume that many of those boas reside in collections with pythons that also never present with any symptoms. If one third of the boas in captivity carry the disease then several people on this forum should have dealt with rapid and devastating decimations of their python collections - correct?

When I had boids, I dealt with IBD, and my correspondence with researchers and the University that did this histology and testing on my animals showed the depth of misunderstanding that exists in this community towards the disease.

Sometimes, the best thing you can do on a forum when you don't know the answer to a question is to back away from the keyboard. Too many people skim these post and misread guesses as real experience or mistake Google experience with real hands on experience.

There are a couple of ophidian diseases that do what people "claim" or "think" IBD does - namely rapidly tear thorough large collections, quickly striking down animals and requiring strict disinfection procedures for remaining husbandry equipment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Well I doubt I will ever vend at a show, but most reputable breeders don't seem to let people hold their snakes, which is why it doesn't seem like a big risk to me. In every case of IBD I've read about, it happened after getting a new snake, not from a reptile show.

---

That is why most researchers believe most cases in pythons are actually Permethrin poisoning, it fits. It kills quickly, spreads fast (administered), wipes out whole collections (treated all at once), and is associated with mites... Permethrin poisoning

People in general are terrible at following directions. Look at disinfectants, there are more describing mis-use than correct use. In fact I think I have only seen a few describe a method that is in line with the instructions on the label. I suspect IBD boogyman is 90% poisoning. There are cases but very few.

ATT I have only one BP who will eat F/T, and he only eats mice, and even then only when Jupiter and Mars align in Sagittarius (or something). I don't have enough snakes right now to justify breeding rats myself, but what to do with the leftovers? Enter the friendly, will-eat-anything-ever-dangled-in-her-face-that-smells-even-vaguely-of-food Red Tail Boa.

She's kept in a different room, and I clean/handle the BPs first if I'm also handling her, food chain runs from them to her (would never go the other way in the event she ever missed a meal, which she never has).

Those are my precautions, but frankly those are pretty much the same for all of my snakes (except the room part). I'm starting to think that even if she is one of the 1 in 3 asymptomatic carriers, it certainly doesn't seem likely to spread so I've quit worrying. Her value in keeping my freezer clear of useless rodents has also far outweighed the worry that possibly maybe she might be carrying something. OPMV however both fits the commonly described IBD symptoms, and would scare the bejeezus put of me.

Am I the only one that's always momentarily confused when they see IBD and automatically think of IBS?

There is a friend of mine who used to haunt Repticlic with me. Like me, he's completely out of boids and, unfortunately, he is also off the forums. Our loss - an old fart with a wicked sense of humor and a ton of knowledge about a wide variety of snakes.....but I digress.

I forget what year it was, but he had three boas that rapidly became ill - not eating, showing respiratory distress, etc, The first one died, was necropsied and it was determined it had IBD. The second and third also died within the next week or so and tests confirmed IBD.

A fourth and fifth boa became ill, then his one of his womas, and a savu and then some other liasis became sick. The fourth boa died, the woma and the liasis died. The fourth boa tested positive for IBD but neither the woma or the liasis tests positive - both die. The fifth boa dies and two more boas show symptoms.

The fifth boa is necropsied and does not have IBD. The sixth and seventh boa die. One test positive for IBD, the other doesn't.

By my memory, he had 7 boas die, 5 test positive for IBD, 2 do not. He loses a total of 5 pythons, only tests two for IBD. All pythons he tests come back negative.

At this point, his vet is baffled. Here was another "text book" case of IBD tearing through a boa collection, but how can it be IBD if 4 of the 9 snakes tested do not have IBD?

In the end, it was determined that he was actually dealing with OPMV.

So how do we explain the fact that 5 of the dead snakes also tested positive for IBD?

Easily, 5 of the 7 boas that died were asymptomatic carriers - a 70% asymptomatic carrier rate.

There have been purported cases of IBD wiping out collections. Let's take my old friend's example and apply it elsewhere. How many vets scream OPMV when a boid becomes rapidly ill? We know that IBD does not really kill so quickly - as a matter of fact most indications are that once symptomatic, an animal could conceivably hang on for an undetermined amount of time with palliative treatment.

But I do know one fairly common virus that kills quickly and spreads quickly. That's OPMV. With OPMV, once snakes start dying in a collection they do so fairly rapidly.

Oh - and they often suffer convulsive death throes that look a lot like what many people mistakenly think IBD looks like - convulsing, twisting, curling, etc.

Thanks so much, Skiploader for posting all of this! Very valuable information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

There is a friend of mine who used to haunt Repticlic with me. Like me, he's completely out of boids and, unfortunately, he is also off the forums. Our loss - an old fart with a wicked sense of humor and a ton of knowledge about a wide variety of snakes.....but I digress.

I forget what year it was, but he had three boas that rapidly became ill - not eating, showing respiratory distress, etc, The first one died, was necropsied and it was determined it had IBD. The second and third also died within the next week or so and tests confirmed IBD.

A fourth and fifth boa became ill, then his one of his womas, and a savu and then some other liasis became sick. The fourth boa died, the woma and the liasis died. The fourth boa tested positive for IBD but neither the woma or the liasis tests positive - both die. The fifth boa dies and two more boas show symptoms.

The fifth boa is necropsied and does not have IBD. The sixth and seventh boa die. One test positive for IBD, the other doesn't.

By my memory, he had 7 boas die, 5 test positive for IBD, 2 do not. He loses a total of 5 pythons, only tests two for IBD. All pythons he tests come back negative.

At this point, his vet is baffled. Here was another "text book" case of IBD tearing through a boa collection, but how can it be IBD if 4 of the 9 snakes tested do not have IBD?

In the end, it was determined that he was actually dealing with OPMV.

So how do we explain the fact that 5 of the dead snakes also tested positive for IBD?

Easily, 5 of the 7 boas that died were asymptomatic carriers - a 70% asymptomatic carrier rate.

There have been purported cases of IBD wiping out collections. Let's take my old friend's example and apply it elsewhere. How many vets scream OPMV when a boid becomes rapidly ill? We know that IBD does not really kill so quickly - as a matter of fact most indications are that once symptomatic, an animal could conceivably hang on for an undetermined amount of time with palliative treatment.

But I do know one fairly common virus that kills quickly and spreads quickly. That's OPMV. With OPMV, once snakes start dying in a collection they do so fairly rapidly.

Oh - and they often suffer convulsive death throes that look a lot like what many people mistakenly think IBD looks like - convulsing, twisting, curling, etc.

---

That is really fascinating information, but how was it determined that he was really dealing with OPMV? The way you described IBD makes it sound like some kind of autoimmune disease, so is it possible that the IBD made the snakes more susceptible to OPMV? I read that OPMV is much more common in venomous snakes, but I'm not sure how common it is in boids compared to IBD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

That is why most researchers believe most cases in pythons are actually Permethrin poisoning, it fits. It kills quickly, spreads fast (administered), wipes out whole collections (treated all at once), and is associated with mites... Permethrin poisoning

People in general are terrible at following directions. Look at disinfectants, there are more describing mis-use than correct use. In fact I think I have only seen a few describe a method that is in line with the instructions on the label. I suspect IBD boogyman is 90% poisoning. There are cases but very few.

---

Who are most researchers? I don't disagree that IBD is not as common as people think, but I also think it's equally dangerous to assume something like 90% of cases being poisoning. There's just not enough research to know for sure, and people shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to quarantining new arrivals.

Well, I replied and while I obviously did not have any idea what I was talking about, I also made it pretty clear that I didn't.

Good news is it got the ball rolling and Skip decided to show up and educate us.

Now I know what to say next time this thread pops up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I read that OPMV is much more common in venomous snakes, but I'm not sure how common it is in boids compared to IBD.

---

you can read this too, it notes that it is common in venemous but also seen in colubrid, boid, and elapid snakes as well.

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...nfections/opm/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

That is really fascinating information, but how was it determined that he was really dealing with OPMV? The way you described IBD makes it sound like some kind of autoimmune disease, so is it possible that the IBD made the snakes more susceptible to OPMV? I read that OPMV is much more common in venomous snakes, but I'm not sure how common it is in boids compared to IBD.

---

Once the vet figured out that animals without IBD were also getting sick he did what good vets should do - he started looking at other diseases. OPMV is confirmed via HI testing. God only knows what some of the vets we read about on this forum would do in such a situation............

Ask a dedicated exotics vet what they see more off - OPMV or IBD. Do not ask this of a casual vet or a vet who thinks everything can be treated by jabbing an animal with baytril - ask a REAL exotics vet. IBD may be very common in some species, but it may not be as lethal as we think. Many animals can be asymptomatic indefinitely.

In the case of Don's collection, snakes with IBD and snakes without IBD were affected indiscriminately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ewaldrep

you can read this too, it notes that it is common in venemous but also seen in colubrid, boid, and elapid snakes as well.

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...nfections/opm/

---

I read that page and a few others, which is why I said it seems much more common in vipers, not that it's exclusive to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

Once the vet figured out that animals without IBD were also getting sick he did what good vets should do - he started looking at other diseases. OPMV is confirmed via HI testing. God only knows what some of the vets we read about on this forum would do in such a situation............

Ask a dedicated exotics vet what they see more off - OPMV or IBD. Do not ask this of a casual vet or a vet who thinks everything can be treated by jabbing an animal with baytril - ask a REAL exotics vet. IBD may be very common in some species, but it may not be as lethal as we think. Many animals can be asymptomatic indefinitely.

In the case of Don's collection, snakes with IBD and snakes without IBD were affected indiscriminately.

---

It sounds like when people are having a necropsy done, they shouldn't stop as soon as they find inclusion bodies in the snake. I wonder how many would have found OPMV as well if they hadn't assumed that IBD was the cause. :confusd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Who are most researchers? I don't disagree that IBD is not as common as people think, but I also think it's equally dangerous to assume something like 90% of cases being poisoning. There's just not enough research to know for sure, and people shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to quarantining new arrivals.

---

Buchmeier in cal and Jacobson mentioned the same and during the symposium in Florida dr. Mader commented that poisoning often is diagnosed as Ibd. That is the top two and a leading vet stating that Ibd is often mid diagnosed. Confirmed cases are very low the claims are quite high in the last year there are at least 15 posts of my snake has Ibd. It is unlikely these are really the disease poisoning presents the same or similar symptoms.

It doesn't mean reducing Quarntene I advocate 6-12 month and having Ibd and parav testing done.i have had all my snakes cleared.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk