So just how common and how contagious IS IBD?

[meowmeowkazoo]

I would. Do you know how many people come home from a show with mites? One vendor has ONE mite, and if that mite makes its way on to someone's sweater, and that someone holds one of your snakes, or it drops off onto your display, then BAM, you have mites. Since this seems to be the most common way of getting IBD, I'd be very careful. I'm even toying with the idea of using only PAM-treated aspen chips in my displays for the next show, just in case. Something that takes minutes to do but could save a lot.

I know. It's being overly paranoid. But is there really such a thing when it comes to diseases like this, and snake collections worth so much? Not just in the sense of a dollar-value (though that is quite significant), but all of my time, effort, and heart put in to this hobby. I don't think it's being overly paranoid.

Well I doubt I will ever vend at a show, but most reputable breeders don't seem to let people hold their snakes, which is why it doesn't seem like a big risk to me. In every case of IBD I've read about, it happened after getting a new snake, not from a reptile show.

[Skiploder]

A couple of things:

- IBD is not the worst thing that can happen to a collection.

- IBD does not kill pythons quickly.

- No one knows how long a python with IBD can remain asymptomatic.

- Pythons do not alway present with neurological symptoms.

The spread of misinformation - whether due to copying info from incorrect or outdated sources - is a real issue in this hobby.

Some of the earliest cases of IBD, the ones that gained traction in the reptile community, the ones that described whole collection dying off like flies, were never ever confirmed as IBD. In fact one of the most "famous" was later proven to be OPMV. Other cases were later, upon careful reexamination, hypothesized to also have been OPMV but were never confirmed because no necropsies were ever done.

Most of what is parroted on the forums came from parroted posts on other forums that had their painful birth on the crap smeared pages of Anapsid.

The very fact that most people automatically ASSume IBD when a snake presents with neurological symptoms is a testament to the depth that this misinformation has permeated our hobby. IBD more often than not, presents as a series of subclinical infections - stomatitis, anorexia, RIs that clear and then come back, etc.

Necropsies done on supposedly clear animals revealed that many healthy boas carry the virus but remain symptomatic - estimates have been thrown out there that perhaps as many as one third of the boas in captivity may be asymptomatic carriers.

A logical step would then be to ASSume that many of those boas reside in collections with pythons that also never present with any symptoms. If one third of the boas in captivity carry the disease then several people on this forum should have dealt with rapid and devastating decimations of their python collections - correct?

When I had boids, I dealt with IBD, and my correspondence with researchers and the University that did this histology and testing on my animals showed the depth of misunderstanding that exists in this community towards the disease.

Sometimes, the best thing you can do on a forum when you don't know the answer to a question is to back away from the keyboard. Too many people skim these post and misread guesses as real experience or mistake Google experience with real hands on experience.

There are a couple of ophidian diseases that do what people "claim" or "think" IBD does - namely rapidly tear thorough large collections, quickly striking down animals and requiring strict disinfection procedures for remaining husbandry equipment.

[kitedemon]

Well I doubt I will ever vend at a show, but most reputable breeders don't seem to let people hold their snakes, which is why it doesn't seem like a big risk to me. In every case of IBD I've read about, it happened after getting a new snake, not from a reptile show.

That is why most researchers believe most cases in pythons are actually Permethrin poisoning, it fits. It kills quickly, spreads fast (administered), wipes out whole collections (treated all at once), and is associated with mites... Permethrin poisoning

People in general are terrible at following directions. Look at disinfectants, there are more describing mis-use than correct use. In fact I think I have only seen a few describe a method that is in line with the instructions on the label. I suspect IBD boogyman is 90% poisoning. There are cases but very few.

[Badgemash]

ATT I have only one BP who will eat F/T, and he only eats mice, and even then only when Jupiter and Mars align in Sagittarius (or something). I don't have enough snakes right now to justify breeding rats myself, but what to do with the leftovers? Enter the friendly, will-eat-anything-ever-dangled-in-her-face-that-smells-even-vaguely-of-food Red Tail Boa.

She's kept in a different room, and I clean/handle the BPs first if I'm also handling her, food chain runs from them to her (would never go the other way in the event she ever missed a meal, which she never has).

Those are my precautions, but frankly those are pretty much the same for all of my snakes (except the room part). I'm starting to think that even if she is one of the 1 in 3 asymptomatic carriers, it certainly doesn't seem likely to spread so I've quit worrying. Her value in keeping my freezer clear of useless rodents has also far outweighed the worry that possibly maybe she might be carrying something. OPMV however both fits the commonly described IBD symptoms, and would scare the bejeezus put of me.

Am I the only one that's always momentarily confused when they see IBD and automatically think of IBS?

[Skiploder]

There is a friend of mine who used to haunt Repticlic with me. Like me, he's completely out of boids and, unfortunately, he is also off the forums. Our loss - an old fart with a wicked sense of humor and a ton of knowledge about a wide variety of snakes.....but I digress.

I forget what year it was, but he had three boas that rapidly became ill - not eating, showing respiratory distress, etc, The first one died, was necropsied and it was determined it had IBD. The second and third also died within the next week or so and tests confirmed IBD.

A fourth and fifth boa became ill, then his one of his womas, and a savu and then some other liasis became sick. The fourth boa died, the woma and the liasis died. The fourth boa tested positive for IBD but neither the woma or the liasis tests positive - both die. The fifth boa dies and two more boas show symptoms.

The fifth boa is necropsied and does not have IBD. The sixth and seventh boa die. One test positive for IBD, the other doesn't.

By my memory, he had 7 boas die, 5 test positive for IBD, 2 do not. He loses a total of 5 pythons, only tests two for IBD. All pythons he tests come back negative.

At this point, his vet is baffled. Here was another "text book" case of IBD tearing through a boa collection, but how can it be IBD if 4 of the 9 snakes tested do not have IBD?

In the end, it was determined that he was actually dealing with OPMV.

So how do we explain the fact that 5 of the dead snakes also tested positive for IBD?

Easily, 5 of the 7 boas that died were asymptomatic carriers - a 70% asymptomatic carrier rate.

There have been purported cases of IBD wiping out collections. Let's take my old friend's example and apply it elsewhere. How many vets scream OPMV when a boid becomes rapidly ill? We know that IBD does not really kill so quickly - as a matter of fact most indications are that once symptomatic, an animal could conceivably hang on for an undetermined amount of time with palliative treatment.

But I do know one fairly common virus that kills quickly and spreads quickly. That's OPMV. With OPMV, once snakes start dying in a collection they do so fairly rapidly.

Oh - and they often suffer convulsive death throes that look a lot like what many people mistakenly think IBD looks like - convulsing, twisting, curling, etc.

[SquamishSerpents]

Thanks so much, Skiploader for posting all of this! Very valuable information.

[meowmeowkazoo]

There is a friend of mine who used to haunt Repticlic with me. Like me, he's completely out of boids and, unfortunately, he is also off the forums. Our loss - an old fart with a wicked sense of humor and a ton of knowledge about a wide variety of snakes.....but I digress.

I forget what year it was, but he had three boas that rapidly became ill - not eating, showing respiratory distress, etc, The first one died, was necropsied and it was determined it had IBD. The second and third also died within the next week or so and tests confirmed IBD.

A fourth and fifth boa became ill, then his one of his womas, and a savu and then some other liasis became sick. The fourth boa died, the woma and the liasis died. The fourth boa tested positive for IBD but neither the woma or the liasis tests positive - both die. The fifth boa dies and two more boas show symptoms.

The fifth boa is necropsied and does not have IBD. The sixth and seventh boa die. One test positive for IBD, the other doesn't.

By my memory, he had 7 boas die, 5 test positive for IBD, 2 do not. He loses a total of 5 pythons, only tests two for IBD. All pythons he tests come back negative.

At this point, his vet is baffled. Here was another "text book" case of IBD tearing through a boa collection, but how can it be IBD if 4 of the 9 snakes tested do not have IBD?

In the end, it was determined that he was actually dealing with OPMV.

So how do we explain the fact that 5 of the dead snakes also tested positive for IBD?

Easily, 5 of the 7 boas that died were asymptomatic carriers - a 70% asymptomatic carrier rate.

There have been purported cases of IBD wiping out collections. Let's take my old friend's example and apply it elsewhere. How many vets scream OPMV when a boid becomes rapidly ill? We know that IBD does not really kill so quickly - as a matter of fact most indications are that once symptomatic, an animal could conceivably hang on for an undetermined amount of time with palliative treatment.

But I do know one fairly common virus that kills quickly and spreads quickly. That's OPMV. With OPMV, once snakes start dying in a collection they do so fairly rapidly.

Oh - and they often suffer convulsive death throes that look a lot like what many people mistakenly think IBD looks like - convulsing, twisting, curling, etc.

That is really fascinating information, but how was it determined that he was really dealing with OPMV? The way you described IBD makes it sound like some kind of autoimmune disease, so is it possible that the IBD made the snakes more susceptible to OPMV? I read that OPMV is much more common in venomous snakes, but I'm not sure how common it is in boids compared to IBD.

[meowmeowkazoo]

That is why most researchers believe most cases in pythons are actually Permethrin poisoning, it fits. It kills quickly, spreads fast (administered), wipes out whole collections (treated all at once), and is associated with mites... Permethrin poisoning

People in general are terrible at following directions. Look at disinfectants, there are more describing mis-use than correct use. In fact I think I have only seen a few describe a method that is in line with the instructions on the label. I suspect IBD boogyman is 90% poisoning. There are cases but very few.

Who are most researchers? I don't disagree that IBD is not as common as people think, but I also think it's equally dangerous to assume something like 90% of cases being poisoning. There's just not enough research to know for sure, and people shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to quarantining new arrivals.

[MrLang]

Well, I replied and while I obviously did not have any idea what I was talking about, I also made it pretty clear that I didn't.

Good news is it got the ball rolling and Skip decided to show up and educate us.

Now I know what to say next time this thread pops up.

[ewaldrep]

I read that OPMV is much more common in venomous snakes, but I'm not sure how common it is in boids compared to IBD.

you can read this too, it notes that it is common in venemous but also seen in colubrid, boid, and elapid snakes as well.

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...nfections/opm/