Quality of breeding stock

So, this whole Pewter/Sterling debacle in the other thread has got me on a path of thought.

Let us talk about future breeding stock.

Ever wonder why you cannot find a nice Enchi or Pastel (or whatever)? IMO the simple answer is a lot of folks just breed whatever quality of stock together and then sell off the numerous sub par examples.

IMO your breeding stock should consist of the highest quality examples you can FIND. You notice I did not say AFFORD. Meaning, that if all you can afford is a poor example, you need to save up and keep looking. You are better off starting with super high quality, but less expensive morphs (ex. Spider), than trying to get the cheapest of the next level for breeding. Or just exercise patience and keep looking.

Furthermore if you EVER question if the snake is even the morph is it purported to be, then DO NOT BUY IT for breeding. All snakes make great pets and we need to as a group come to grips that some are pet quality and some are breeder quality. A nicer example SHOULD cost you more. Luckily it does not always, and that is great.

(I understand there are a handful of "ugly" snakes that throw great babies, these are not the rule)

I will take the last thought a step further and say that if you have to come on a message board and ask if something is a good example, then probably should not buy it either. I say this for two reasons:

1. Probably not a stunner if you have ask us if it is one.
2. You may need to do more research on the morph so you can formulate your own opinion.

That may sound harsh, but lack of research into a project causes a lot of issues IMO.

I bring this up because not every breeder can afford to get in on the latest hot shot project, but EVERY breeder can think in a line breeding mentality and always strive for the best end product. Whether that be the cleanest Enchi, or the busiest Clown, there are a lot a accepted variations within a morph and many have their own specific audience.

A lot of folks try to hide behind the idea that we cannot decide what is the best example of a morph because of natural variation. I disagree with that and I think the market often times makes the decision for us. There is a reason there are more HC Albino now than dull ones. The market dictated that folks wanted HC and it was bred for. For a newer morph YOU could be the one to help dictating that by breeding the best examples of whatever trait floats your boat.

Anyway, I know this is a long ramble that may not make a ton of sense, but here it is. My manifesto for today.

Thanks for reading and I look forward to spirited discussion on the matter.

Oh and here is a picture of a pretty snake to make up for all the words:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...7/9492f813.jpg

I agree with everything you said. Well said.

The other day, a new member said base morph quality had nothing to do with it affecting the look of combos or homozygous (super) forms and that having a 'standard' shouldn't matter. It really upset me. That kind of mindset is the reason why there are so many muddy 'low quality' animals out there.

I think we should also include normals in the the mindset of 'breed the best example' as well. I know not everyone really thinks about the normal females they are pairing. But it makes a difference in offspring.
There are a few people out there, like Gale or Robin, who's normals are excellent examples. And it really shows up in their breedings.

This will help improve quality as well.

I agree, I stayed out of that thread but if you threw together a browned out pastel and a poor spider, you're going to pop out poor pastels, poor spiders, and even worse bees. A bee is not a bee is not a bee. You breed quality to make quality, simple fact.

I never understood payment plans for live animals, perhaps that's a step further than your argument, but I really don't get that. It saves everyone time around the table if you just watch and then when you have the money to send a payment directly in full start shopping around.

I have not problem with payment plans as long s they work well for the buyer and seller. Sometimes that is a way for the someone to step up in quality before a specific snake is gone.

I imagine most people are taken aback by some people non refundable deposit. I'd require 25 percent of the total price of the animal to hold an animal. And anything over 90 days would be subject to upkeep fees.
But that's just me, I don't think I'll be breeding anything THAT desirable ever or for a long time. At least I won't be producing two genes until single genes are scarce, haha.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I have not problem with payment plans as long s they work well for the buyer and seller. Sometimes that is a way for the someone to step up in quality before a specific snake is gone.

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x2 all the way. There are a few animals in my racks that I would have missed out on if the breeder wasn't willing to let me get a few paychecks in before he/she was paid in full. It also helped me keep my credit card out of the equation and free to use for emergencies, which is their purpose (IMO). My longest payment plan took 60 days (official plan was 3 months), and it was too hot to ship during that time, so the breeder would have been holding and feeding him until conditions were better, anyway.

Oh, and I would never balk at a nonrefundable deposit (although some do). IMO, the breeder is doing me a favor, so I am happy to give them the reassurance of compensation for taking my animal off the market.

I completely agree with everything you said, BUT.... :) how can new breeders learn and grow if we can't come on here and ask 'the pros' your opinion on a snake? This is my first year breeding, and although I have racked my brain for hours, days, weeks, MONTHS!! some things I still have questions about. I want to breed quality morphs. I want to do the right thing. I am an honest person who has morals. I have saved up, done payment plans, etc. and I 'feel' that I have purchased very nice quality morphs to pair up... heck, I think all of my snakes are purty. ;) But I do feel that you can go about things the right way and still question your own judgement on a snake and want others' input, and there's nothing wrong with that! I guess my point is - I don't think it's wrong to ask opinions on the quality of a snake, after all we can learn and grow from it... but use some discretion first. Don't just find a snake and plop it up here on the forum and ask if it's a good one. Do your homework first, educate yourself if you really want to try to be a good breeder, and IF you're still truly unsure, THEN ask :)


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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

I completely agree with everything you said, BUT.... :) how can new breeders learn and grow if we can't come on here and ask 'the pros' your opinion on a snake? This is my first year breeding, and although I have racked my brain for hours, days, weeks, MONTHS!! some things I still have questions about. I want to breed quality morphs. I want to do the right thing. I am an honest person who has morals. I have saved up, done payment plans, etc. and I 'feel' that I have purchased very nice quality morphs to pair up... heck, I think all of my snakes are purty. ;) But I do feel that you can go about things the right way and still question your own judgement on a snake and want others' input, and there's nothing wrong with that! I guess my point is - I don't think it's wrong to ask opinions on the quality of a snake, after all we can learn and grow from it... but use some discretion first. Don't just find a snake and plop it up here on the forum and ask if it's a good one. Do your homework first, educate yourself if you really want to try to be a good breeder, and IF you're still truly unsure, THEN ask :)


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I am by no means discouraging asking about things. I am talking about further down the line when you are selecting your actual breeding stock. And you make the very good point of discretion. You should basically have most of it worked out already and are asking for some final "Yay/Nay" clarification.

It is easier to just plop up a snake and ask everyone's opinion than it is to do the research and look to what YOU want. So, that is what a lot of new folks will do.

This is also my first year breeding (but not my first keeping). For every hour I have been on here asking questions, I have spent at least twice that reading, researching, speaking to people directly etc... And I am still by no means an expert on anything.

In the end, the main point of my rant is: If you want to be a top notch breeder (nothing to with the number of animals or the newness of your morphs) you need to be selective in your breeding stock. We cannot stop OTHER folks from pairing every snake they can get in the same room, but WE can strive to make things better and to advance breeding projects.

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Originally Posted by jinx667

I am by no means discouraging asking about things. I am talking about further down the line when you are selecting your actual breeding stock. And you make the very good point of discretion. You should basically have most of it worked out already and are asking for some final "Yay/Nay" clarification.

It is easier to just plop up a snake and ask everyone's opinion than it is to do the research and look to what YOU want. So, that is what a lot of new folks will do.

This is also my first year breeding (but not my first keeping). For every hour I have been on here asking questions, I have spent at least twice that reading, researching, speaking to people directly etc... And I am still by no means an expert on anything.

In the end, the main point of my rant is: If you want to be a top notch breeder (nothing to with the number of animals or the newness of your morphs) you need to be selective in your breeding stock. We cannot stop OTHER folks from pairing every snake they can get in the same room, but WE can strive to make things better and to advance breeding projects.

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You're right, it is a lot easier to simply post a pic and get the pros' input... and lazier ;) Unfortunately, even as new as I am, I see A LOT of low-quality flooding in the BP market and people wonder why it seems like the market is in decline. I think (and hope) that it's temporary and will just weed out those who are simply in it for $$ with no regard to their snakes or quality. It's because unfortunately there are more 'puppymill breeders' (I use the term as an example) than there are true quality breeders. It's a shame. Perhaps we need to adopt the 'pet quality vs breeder quality' notion like dog breeders do.

I hear ya... I have spent beyond countless hours infinity (lol) researching, to the point of my brain and eyes hurting, and my husband asking me 'if I'm going to get off the computer this week at all'. :P ...and I STILL know 'nothing'.... lol

^^^^ that in bold.... YES! :D

I agree with this post. I think my snakes are all of pretty decent quality. I plan to only holdback offspring thats just as nice, or hopefully nicer than what i have now.

I think we should also take into account the fact that different people have different tastes though. Not all morphs should look one way. Some people like high white spiders, some people like low white spiders. I love blushing so i'd rather own a pastel thats not super yellow but has a ton of blushing, rather than a bright yellow pastel with no blushing. Some of it is personal preference.

I also agree with what nikki said about normals. Pairing a fire to a really light normal would probably produce nicer fires than if you paired it to a darker or more brown normal.

I think I've been loud enough on the forums about my opinions on quality, but just in case anyone had any question about my beliefs.... /ditto what Jinx said.

I am constantly telling people to wait for the snake that makes you (literally) say "wow". Don't settle just because you haven't found one yet that made you say that. WAIT. I've been looking at spiders, and bees, for one that wow'd me for 8 months. I think it's a valuable gene to work with, as everyone and their mother seems to be in love with the spider gene. I have yet to find one that I would want in my rack. I know what I want, and when I finally find it, I will has it :P I came across *my* perfect honeybee (and I'm not even into the hypo gene yet), but sadly it was scooped up before I could get the payment info, let alone pay for it.

I pride myself on the quality of my snakes, and hopefully...they don't all turn out to be accidental two gene purchases...lol but if they do, I will continue to breed up, pairing them with normals / prime examples to achieve the highest quality offspring I can.

Excellent point and completely agree. We have spent hours scouring countless shows, classifieds, and auctions for the best examples of the morphs we want to add for our breeding plans. We pick a gene and focus on finding a phenomenal example of that morphs even if we pass up 30 low quality cheaper examples. The thought being that if you build your collection around great genetic examples then your future breeding's will be quality and intense. We recently went through this with our leopard and OD and passed up several examples that didn't look top notch to us until we found the perfect examples!

I think it comes down to a low price doesn't mean a good deal and have an excellent background and description of the genetic qualities before buying.

I really would like a grading system for babies although it would need to be monitored and policed by the most experienced breeders in each morph. The logistics would be a feat, but to sell a "A" quality enchi would be that snake is an excellent example of the morph and meets certain qualities. A "C" quality would be pet quality or something similar.
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Oh, and agreed on the preference variation on color, pattern, etc. I tend to prefer the medium white pieds (60%) but I know a lot of people prefer the high white or low white examples. There has to be some understanding that it can be a beautiful example of the gene even if it doesn't match your preference.

However I see way too many pastels that look like normals or axanthic that look like a poor pastel. This is where the line should be drawn.
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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I agree with this post. I think my snakes are all of pretty decent quality. I plan to only holdback offspring thats just as nice, or hopefully nicer than what i have now.

I think we should also take into account the fact that different people have different tastes though. Not all morphs should look one way. Some people like high white spiders, some people like low white spiders. I love blushing so i'd rather own a pastel thats not super yellow but has a ton of blushing, rather than a bright yellow pastel with no blushing. Some of it is personal preference.

I also agree with what nikki said about normals. Pairing a fire to a really light normal would probably produce nicer fires than if you paired it to a darker or more brown normal.

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I agree. A beautiful snake to me might be an ugly one to you. A lot of it is personal preference. I personally love all of the animals in my collection and bought them because I think they look great. However, if you prefer more reduced cinnamons over funky pattern, super yellow pastel over high blushing, etc, you wouldn't like my collection. While there are animals that I think we can all agree are very poor quality (i.e a completely brown pastel, a sterling that is indistinguishable from a pewter), most depend on what you personally look for in the morph.

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jasper

I really would like a grading system for babies although it would need to be monitored and policed by the most experienced breeders in each morph. The logistics would be a feat, but to sell a "A" quality enchi would be that snake is an excellent example of the morph and meets certain qualities. A "C" quality would be pet quality or something similar.
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I completely agree, but wonder how hard that would be to instill. It's a fantastic idea though!

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Originally Posted by liv

I agree. A beautiful snake to me might be an ugly one to you. A lot of it is personal preference. I personally love all of the animals in my collection and bought them because I think they look great. However, if you prefer more reduced cinnamons over funky pattern, super yellow pastel over high blushing, etc, you wouldn't like my collection. While there are animals that I think we can all agree are very poor quality (i.e a completely brown pastel, a sterling that is indistinguishable from a pewter), most depend on what you personally look for in the morph.

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:8::rofl:

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jasper

However I see way too many pastels that look like normals or axanthic that look like a poor pastel. This is where the line should be drawn.
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Agreed. I think low quality pastels are the biggest issue. They are cheap so people pick them up probably more than any other morph and they can cause the biggest trickle effect of low quality morphs.

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Originally Posted by liv

( a sterling that is indistinguishable from a pewter).

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O boy lol

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

I completely agree, but wonder how hard that would be to instill. It's a fantastic idea though!

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I have thought a lot about it but would need participation from the big breeders on defining the "A" standards for each base morph that we could then use to compare. There would be a certain reliance on honesty on our part, but we should have a morph description and way to accurately and fairly grade our clutches. I would definitely grade one of my babies a "C" if I felt it was a poor example.

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Soooo uhhh, what are you guys' thoughts on my Pastel??
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4a3042d6.jpg
:D :D :D :P Juuust kidding! She's still a baby, hoping she doesn't brown out, but so far so good! :)

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Originally Posted by Joshua Jasper

I really would like a grading system for babies although it would need to be monitored and policed by the most experienced breeders in each morph. The logistics would be a feat, but to sell a "A" quality enchi would be that snake is an excellent example of the morph and meets certain qualities. A "C" quality would be pet quality or something similar.
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I had actually planned on integrating a grading system into my website once we are hatching/selling little ones. I was going to use a similar scale to http://www.fireandicedragons.com/pricing.cfm which is this (Note, this would be a general guideline, as working with bp's you don't have the vast numbers that dragons produce.):

How we generally rank quality:
1. Pet Quality - The 2 or 3 dragons in each clutch with the least amount of color. These are available at a low cost and show more color than pet store dragons.

2. Breeder Quality - These dragons are average in color for the clutch. This group is medium priced.

3. Hold Back Quality - These are intensely colored dragons; the top 2 or 3 in the whole clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

4. Collectors Quality - These are the best of the best. Maybe 1 dragon per clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

Obviously I will need to tweek it, as I see how things pan out over the years. But it's a start! I think it would be practically impossible to have a "standard" among the community, as has been stated, because of the opinions varying so much on certain traits.

The sterling vs. Pewter should be obvious, but it happens so often!

Another problem - people try to pass of genetic combinations in snakes when they purchased it as something else and either labeled it something or "suggest" without proving it out.

Example: I know someone locally who picked up a female normal in a collection sell and is now calling it an Orange Dream without evidence or proof. Hasn't even bred her yet. Not gonna lie, this pisses me off to no end. Here I am, just dropped $1500 on what I think is a phenomenal OD female from a reputable breeder and here we have what could be irreparable damage to the gene as a whole.

What do you do? What can you do? I am all about quality, not quantity.

This is a great thread everyone! Thank you!
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Originally Posted by Joshua Jasper

I have thought a lot about it but would need participation from the big breeders on defining the "A" standards for each base morph that we could then use to compare. There would be a certain reliance on honesty on our part, but we should have a morph description and way to accurately and fairly grade our clutches. I would definitely grade one of my babies a "C" if I felt it was a poor example.

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I wonder if something like this could be worked out... I think it would benefit us all. And I would definitely rate any of my babies a 'C' if I felt that's what quality they were... I'd rather be forthright and sell a pet quality as it is, and for less than seem like I'm putting them out there regardless of quality as 'potential breeders'... maybe as I become more skilled at these kinds of things and if there is no system set up by then, I will label my 'for sale' snakes as 'pet quality' if I feel they are that....

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I had actually planned on integrating a grading system into my website once we are hatching/selling little ones. I was going to use a similar scale to http://www.fireandicedragons.com/pricing.cfm which is this (Note, this would be a general guideline, as working with bp's you don't have the vast numbers that dragons produce.):

How we generally rank quality:
1. Pet Quality - The 2 or 3 dragons in each clutch with the least amount of color. These are available at a low cost and show more color than pet store dragons.

2. Breeder Quality - These dragons are average in color for the clutch. This group is medium priced.

3. Hold Back Quality - These are intensely coexcellenr!
lored dragons; the top 2 or 3 in the whole clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

4. Collectors Quality - These are the best of the best. Maybe 1 dragon per clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

Obviously I will need to tweek it, as I see how things pan out over the years. But it's a start! I think it would be practically impossible to have a "standard" among the community, as has been stated, because of the opinions varying so much on certain traits.

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Excellent, and this tells me right off the bat you are a responsible breeder who cares about the quality of the animals you produce. I plan on integrating something similar for my breedings and on my website. Just wish it could be standardized across the board. Like a quality stamp of approval for breeder's who integrate it.

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

I wonder if something like this could be worked out... I think it would benefit us all. And I would definitely rate any of my babies a 'C' if I felt that's what quality they were... I'd rather be forthright and sell a pet quality as it is, and for less than seem like I'm putting them out there regardless of quality as 'potential breeders'... maybe as I become more skilled at these kinds of things and if there is no system set up by then, I will label my 'for sale' snakes as 'pet quality' if I feel they are that....

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I am planning on on having a grading system for each snake we produce with thorough descriptions why I think this enchi is an "A" and this one is a "B" and o on. I would love to see it catch on so we all stand by the quality we are putting out there 100%. I know we are small, but you never know!
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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I had actually planned on integrating a grading system into my website once we are hatching/selling little ones. I was going to use a similar scale to http://www.fireandicedragons.com/pricing.cfm which is this (Note, this would be a general guideline, as working with bp's you don't have the vast numbers that dragons produce.):

How we generally rank quality:
1. Pet Quality - The 2 or 3 dragons in each clutch with the least amount of color. These are available at a low cost and show more color than pet store dragons.

2. Breeder Quality - These dragons are average in color for the clutch. This group is medium priced.

3. Hold Back Quality - These are intensely colored dragons; the top 2 or 3 in the whole clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

4. Collectors Quality - These are the best of the best. Maybe 1 dragon per clutch. Our breeders come from this group.

Obviously I will need to tweek it, as I see how things pan out over the years. But it's a start! I think it would be practically impossible to have a "standard" among the community, as has been stated, because of the opinions varying so much on certain traits.

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This is a GREAT idea! Mind if I steal it from you as well (obviously, tweaked for BPs)? :) for when I am selling?

Go for it :) Maybe we can all work on editing a general guideline like this and use it. As Josh stated, we may be small, but perhaps it will catch on. :gj:

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Originally Posted by jinx667

Ever wonder why you cannot find a nice Enchi or Pastel (or whatever)? IMO the simple answer is a lot of folks just breed whatever quality of stock together and then sell off the numerous sub par examples.

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This may be the only thing I kind of disagree with. Quality animals can produce sub par animals. Line breeding takes time and you're not going to be producing amazing animals all the time only because your breeders are nice looking. Most of the time, the reason you see the sub par quality animals for sale is because the breeder held back the best quality, or it sold before most people even saw the animal. A lot of the stuff you see on the classifieds are the lesser quality animals, because the high quality gets picked up first. Not disagreeing with your premise, just offering a reason for it over blaming most breeders for selling sub par animals based on their breeding stock.

Perhaps something like this -

Pet Quality - These are the pythons with the least favorable coloring/pattern, but the most affordable.

Beginner Breeding Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price.

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Perhaps something like this -

Pet Quality - These are the pythons with the least favorable coloring/pattern, but the most affordable.

Beginner Breeding Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price.

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

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This is a fine idea; however, theres a pretty obvious problem. How would you make sure that the pet quality snakes aren't bred? Its not like a dog where most families buy a "pet quality" dog and never even consider breeding it.

Just curious; do any breeders out there cull babies that are pet quality or lower? Or does anyone know of any breeders that do?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

This is a fine idea; however, theres a pretty obvious problem. How would you make sure that the pet quality snakes aren't bred? Its not like a dog where most families buy a "pet quality" dog and never even consider breeding it.

Just curious; do any breeders out there cull babies that are pet quality or lower? Or does anyone know of any breeders that do?

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I wouldn't "make sure they aren't bred" I let the people know they are pet quality, if they decide to breed on their own that is their mistake. (IE...go to any humane society). But, I believe by putting it out there that you feel some animals are below breeding standards, a lot of new breeders would see that and think twice about it.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I wouldn't "make sure they aren't bred" I let the people know they are pet quality, if they decide to breed on their own that is their mistake. (IE...go to any humane society). But, I believe by putting it out there that you feel some animals are below breeding standards, a lot of new breeders would see that and think twice about it.

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Noobs come here and just see the numbers (money). I doubt they'd care that much if you tell them the snake is low quality. Idk, i could be wrong though.

I agree as well! But I have a question to everyone... Can and will the snake market bottom out?
Of all the breeders the mass production of morphs, do you think the snake morphs will run out?

It started... 20/30 years ago with the thought of only a few morphs. Now there are 1800 and counting. When will we run out? 30 years from now? Will we be looking for 10 or 20 gene morph?

Just curious in y'all's thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Noobs come here and just see the numbers (money). I doubt they'd care that much if you tell them the snake is low quality. Idk, i could be wrong though.

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There will be plenty of people who buy the pet quality and go ahead and breed. Just like there are plenty of people who buy the pet quality from fire and ice dragons and breed them. The thing is, when you show people different quality levels, some of them do have a tendency (I know I do) to look at all the tiers, then they sit and think...well damn, for $50 more I could get that beginner breeder quality, and that one really is prettier *think think*. If that scale makes people *think* about quality at all, I'm happy with it. Even if they decide to go for the lowest price, that planted the seed that quality does matter, and then maybe one day, even if it's years down the line, they will make that switch from BUY ALL THE BROWN PASTELS!!! to hey...lets focus more on quality now that we've had a few clutches...happily ever after.

Besides, if I grade my own snakes honestly, at least I can sleep at night knowing that I was up front about the pet quality. And in the end, that's all that really matters. Sleep. :P

The snake market has already bottomed out for many morphs, supply and demand is king,
The only way to stand out these days is quality, quality, quality.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Perhaps something like this -

Pet Quality - These are the pythons with the least favorable coloring/pattern, but the most affordable.

Beginner Breeding Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price.

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

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Pet Quality - These are good quality python representatives of their morph; below breeding quality. (I wouldn't want even my pet to be lowest quality... :( lol :P Even BP owners with only 'pets' are super proud of their Balls :D)

Mid Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price. ( don't know if I'd label these as breeder quality; am I wrong? We're trying to weed out people buying 'lowER end' snakes to breed (I know we can't stop them, but like you said, make them think)... should we try to hold that to Superior Quality?)

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

This is a fine idea; however, theres a pretty obvious problem. How would you make sure that the pet quality snakes aren't bred? Its not like a dog where most families buy a "pet quality" dog and never even consider breeding it.

Just curious; do any breeders out there cull babies that are pet quality or lower? Or does anyone know of any breeders that do?

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We can't MAKE them not breed them, unfortunately... but like Rosey Reps said... if there is a standard, maybe it will help potential new breeders to think twice and subconsciously strive to acquire higher standards for their breeding practices. We'll be hard pressed to completely get rid of bad breeders. Heck, people do it with dogs, too. Unfortunately there is no 'spay/neuter' program for snakes.... :)

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

There will be plenty of people who buy the pet quality and go ahead and breed. Just like there are plenty of people who buy the pet quality from fire and ice dragons and breed them. The thing is, when you show people different quality levels, some of them do have a tendency (I know I do) to look at all the tiers, then they sit and think...well damn, for $50 more I could get that beginner breeder quality, and that one really is prettier *think think*. If that scale makes people *think* about quality at all, I'm happy with it. Even if they decide to go for the lowest price, that planted the seed that quality does matter, and then maybe one day, even if it's years down the line, they will make that switch from BUY ALL THE BROWN PASTELS!!! to hey...lets focus more on quality now that we've had a few clutches...happily ever after.

Besides, if I grade my own snakes honestly, at least I can sleep at night knowing that I was up front about the pet quality. And in the end, that's all that really matters. Sleep. :P

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Yes :)

As someone who is new to the various morphs of ball python (honestly had NO idea how many there were!), I see part of the problem being the fact there is NO standard and everything is left up to subjective opinion. On the one hand that's nice, because if person A actually does like cheap muddy pastels they can find cheap muddy pastels, but on the other hand that's not so nice because then person B who likes very nice, clean, bright (and maybe more expensive) pastels may have a harder time finding them because too many persons A are buying and producing the cheap muddy ones.

I may or may not ever breed my snakes, I have at least a year (maybe longer) before any of my females will be ready. I'm not jumping into it half-assed or hurrying up just to make more snakes (or at least i don't consider myself doing that!), I am happy to wait and watch my snakes grow, and learn more as I wait. But that being said... I AM learning. I came from breeding rats and working at a horse breeding stable, where there ARE standards. So coming into this has been kind of a whirlwind for me, as I try to figure out what makes one more and what makes another morph. As an example... awhile back I posted a few pictures of some snakes I found in an ad. The ad was for a lot of 4 snakes, price was pretty decent (maybe even a steal, too good to be true), and at least 2 of those snakes were morphs I am looking to add to my collection for possible future projects. BUT something about a couple of the snakes in the ad made me question their quality. It may have been the pictures, it may have been the snakes, it may have been me being an uninformed newbie who is still learning. So I posted asking for opinions. And the opinions I got were split 50/50 down the middle. 50% of replies said "Yes, great snake! Beautiful!" and 50% said "Not so much, pass." Considering that... how can a newbie like me truly learn what IS good quality?

I may not have the best quality snakes out there, but I am trying too. To add the snakes I do have, I have perused so many ads, looked at so many pictures. My snakes are simple, mostly one gene morphs, a two gene morph, and a normal het pied, but I personally am happy with that. I personally would rather have a room full of simple one or two gene morphs that I LIKE and I think are GORGEOUS than I would a whole house full of multi gene morphs that just don't do it for me. So far, I am very pleased with my collection (posted new pictures last night even), and am more pleased with them as they grow.

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

Pet Quality - These are good quality python representatives of their morph; below breeding quality. (I wouldn't want even my pet to be lowest quality... :( lol :P Even BP owners with only 'pets' are super proud of their Balls :D)

Mid Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price. ( don't know if I'd label these as breeder quality; am I wrong? We're trying to weed out people buying 'lowER end' snakes to breed (I know we can't stop them, but like you said, make them think)... should we try to hold that to Superior Quality?)

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.



We can't MAKE them not breed them, unfortunately... but like Rosey Reps said... if there is a standard, maybe it will help potential new breeders to think twice and subconsciously strive to acquire higher standards for their breeding practices. We'll be hard pressed to completely get rid of bad breeders. Heck, people do it with dogs, too. Unfortunately there is no 'spay/neuter' program for snakes.... :)


Yes :)

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The reasoning I had for labeling the mid range and beginner breeder was this: many / most of your morph customers are looking to breed at some point. The mid range would be the bulk of your sales, and consist of snakes that represent the morph accurately, to the general mmorph standards (your pastel, for example.) But are not holymotherofgod amazing. They are still high enough quality to breed, but you would want to line breed and improve them. Where as superior quality would be the best of the best. Probably only aa handful of snakes the entire year, sometimes none at all.

That was just my concept, add another tier, switch around how you would standardize your babies. It's a work in progress :D

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

The reasoning I had for labeling the mid range and beginner breeder was this: many / most of your morph customers are looking to breed at some point. The mid range would be the bulk of your sales, and consist of snakes that represent the morph accurately, to the general mmorph standards (your pastel, for example.) But are not holymotherofgod amazing. They are still high enough quality to breed, but you would want to line breed and improve them. Where as superior quality would be the best of the best. Probably only aa handful of snakes the entire year, sometimes none at all.

That was just my concept, add another tier, switch around how you would standardize your babies. It's a work in progress :D

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No, that actually totally makes sense to me now that you mention it!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

The reasoning I had for labeling the mid range and beginner breeder was this: many / most of your morph customers are looking to breed at some point. The mid range would be the bulk of your sales, and consist of snakes that represent the morph accurately, to the general mmorph standards (your pastel, for example.) But are not holymotherofgod amazing. They are still high enough quality to breed, but you would want to line breed and improve them. Where as superior quality would be the best of the best. Probably only aa handful of snakes the entire year, sometimes none at all.

That was just my concept, add another tier, switch around how you would standardize your babies. It's a work in progress :D

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I could be wrong... but it seems to me the "superior" quality snakes may not even be available to newbie breeders, instead probably being traded among top breeders who know each other and work together, long before they even make it to the newbie. Like someone mentioned... what you see in the ads are generally seem to be the lower quality snakes, until you get toward the end of the season/start of next season when breeders start selling off their holdbacks they don't really want/need any more. (That was how I got my pastave! Dumb luck I saw the ad the day it was posted, and contacted the breeder on a whim/impulse.) But I might be wrong. This is generally how things went in the rat world... where most of the quality breeders (meaning those breeders producing show quality animals that WERE winning) only traded/sold their best quality animals with other quality breeders they knew and worked closely with.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

The snake market has already bottomed out for many morphs, supply and demand is king,
The only way to stand out these days is quality, quality, quality.

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Not even close. Until you see mass amounts of morphs for $30-50 in pet stores, they're far from bottomed out. They may be bottomed out to you as you feel they're too cheap, pet stores are still buying them at near market value....not even wholesale value yet. The pet market is still almost completely void of ball python morphs, though some are making their way into them. Most still see even the cheaper morphs as too expensive that they'd sit on their shelves. Its all about perception ;)

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I could be wrong... but it seems to me the "superior" quality snakes may not even be available to newbie breeders, instead probably being traded among top breeders who know each other and work together, long before they even make it to the newbie. Like someone mentioned... what you see in the ads are generally seem to be the lower quality snakes, until you get toward the end of the season/start of next season when breeders start selling off their holdbacks they don't really want/need any more. (That was how I got my pastave! Dumb luck I saw the ad the day it was posted, and contacted the breeder on a whim/impulse.) But I might be wrong. This is generally how things went in the rat world... where most of the quality breeders (meaning those breeders producing show quality animals that WERE winning) only traded/sold their best quality animals with other quality breeders they knew and worked closely with.

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I disagree, as I feel the majority of my morphs are superior quality, and I am about as newbie as they get. But that is the thing, without a breed/morph standard, opinions will be the swaying factor in what goes in the "Beginner breeder" section, and the "superior quality" section.

Then again, if any of my single genes prove out to be multi genes, I'll have to eat my words... :fim::rofl:

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I disagree, as I feel the majority of my morphs are superior quality, and I am about as newbie as they get. But that is the thing, without a breed/morph standard, opinions will be the swaying factor in what goes in the "Beginner breeder" section, and the "superior quality" section.

Then again, if any of my single genes prove out to be multi genes, I'll have to eat my words... :fim::rofl:

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That could be, and I'm sure it depends on when someone is looking too. Someone looking at ads at the beginning of the season when all the babies are hatching at ones, perhaps could be looking at lesser quality, compared to someone looking at the end of the season holdbacks.

But to confuse matters even more... how would one judge "hets"? I could just not be looking in the right places, but I haven't seen much in the way of long pedigrees (maybe parents and grandparents) complete with pictures. So without knowing what is in the animal's background, how does one judge a het? Is it worth taking the risk to buy a het, raise it up, breed it, and then possibly end up with a bunch of subpar recessive morphs? Is a newbie, or any breeder for that matter, better off just spending the extra money to buy the morph itself? Or what if it is a morph that seems so completely subjective (i.e. pied) that it doesn't really seem to matter any way?

For the most part, aside from the obvious morphs, quality is purely in the eye of the breeders/buyers/owners. People breed for different qualities....whether it be clean and reduced, busy, spotted up, dark, dirty, etc... And there are businesses in the industry that don't breed for quality much at all. Not to say they don't produce nice snakes, but they also produce plenty of not so nice ones. Of course, as prices drop, there is a host of newer people coming in buying up anything at rock bottom prices and breeding. And with the never ending race to produce new combos, quality does take a back seat, IMO. Ball pythons are still relatively young as a breeding hobby with all the morphs, so it's just as possible that top quality has not yet been achieved in any morph....it's something that takes generations and generations to reach, not just popping out a hot snake here and there. Now, as far as quality goes...

Let's take enchi quality as an example...I'm not a fan of busy patterned enchis, but I'll definitely take some spots on mine if the color is outstanding. I see a lot of really clean enchis that don't impress me at all because the coloration is too soft, which I don't find to be a desirable trait in an enchi.

Another thing I'm not a fan of is pastel albinos...the yellow is way too soft and fades a lot over time. When I'm looking at albinos, I want screaming yellow. I'd venture to guess that ugly browned out pastels would make albinos more to my liking than really bright pastels would.

And have a look at Jerry's(SnakesRkewl) yellowbellies...by far the best I've seen. Are they the nicest they'll ever be? I don't think so...with the way Jerry feels about breeding, 10-15 years down the line, he will have even a nicer yellowbelly.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

That could be, and I'm sure it depends on when someone is looking too. Someone looking at ads at the beginning of the season when all the babies are hatching at ones, perhaps could be looking at lesser quality, compared to someone looking at the end of the season holdbacks.

But to confuse matters even more... how would one judge "hets"? I could just not be looking in the right places, but I haven't seen much in the way of long pedigrees (maybe parents and grandparents) complete with pictures. So without knowing what is in the animal's background, how does one judge a het? Is it worth taking the risk to buy a het, raise it up, breed it, and then possibly end up with a bunch of subpar recessive morphs? Is a newbie, or any breeder for that matter, better off just spending the extra money to buy the morph itself? Or what if it is a morph that seems so completely subjective (i.e. pied) that it doesn't really seem to matter any way?

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I ask for pictures of the parents. If they don't have that, I'm not buying the hets.

Excellent! This should be stickied in the breeding section.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I ask for pictures of the parents. If they don't have that, I'm not buying the hets.

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x2. I want pictures of the parents to see what they look like and I want pictures of the parents locked up. Without at least that, I'm not touching hets with a 10 foot pole.

This is a bit delayed, so I apologize if this is irrelevant.. I'm only a couple pages in so far...

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Perhaps something like this -

Pet Quality - These are the pythons with the least favorable coloring/pattern, but the most affordable.

Beginner Breeding Quality - These pythons are mid range, showing decent coloration/pattern for the morph. The majority of our babies fall in this category. Market price.

Superior Quality - These pythons go above and beyond the morph standard, showing excellent coloring/pattern. Our breeders come from this group. Priced according to market, with additional quality mark up.

Holdbacks / Breeders - These are our personal stock. Sometimes we will have pythons here we have bred in the past, who have been replaced by their offspring. All of these are Superior Quality, and priced accordingly.

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This already exists, but is not labeled, and the animals 'grade' is affirmed or rejected by the market. I already 'grade' my animals, as do many other breeders, whether they realize or not, noted by their differing price ranges compared to each other, or compared to the average going rate for that particular morph. I've sold stunning examples of a morph on the higher end of that range, while charging less for what I consider to be sub-par animals. It's not that this system doesn't exist, it's that it isn't labeled, and I don't necessarily think labeling it will change what already exists: Good breeders continuing to breed excellent quality animals, and selling off the ones that are not good enough for their breeding program, and lazy breeders, who continue to breed solely for profit, or out of apathy regarding quality. You know what will happen with each of these groups?

Good breeders will continue to maintain their customer base and be successful in the hobby. Their animals will maintain a level of excellence, or get better as a whole, over time.

Lazy breedres will continue taking shortcuts, or purchasing only poor quality animals, and continue breeding poor quality animals. Do you think an animal labeled as a D-Grade animal, wont be bred by lazy breeders simply because it's D-Grade? The types of people who perpetuate poor examples, are the same ones who say "I'll just get 2 D-Grade Fires instead of 1 A-Grade Fire, and spend less, but get MORE babies/money!". Anybody who falls into the respectable category noted above, will not buy the crappy animals from this person... so who are they left with? Other lazy, cheap breeders who will pay less and less for the animals being sold... to the point where the person selling the poor quality animals will either find no homes for his ugly animals, or he'll be slowly inched out of the hobby by a customer base that doesn't respect him or his animals. People who fall into this category are also more likely to drop out of the hobby due to lack of passion in the first place.

We don't need to make standards and grades for ball pythons - they already exist, and are maintained by quality breeders adhering to their own aesthetic standards, and the market who purchase them. People who breed quality animals naturally rise to the top, and those who don't, are buried in their own apathy.

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Originally Posted by Anatopism

This is a bit delayed, so I apologize if this is irrelevant.. I'm only a couple pages in so far...



This already exists, but is not labeled, and the animals 'grade' is affirmed or rejected by the market. I already 'grade' my animals, as do many other breeders, whether they realize or not, noted by their differing price ranges compared to each other, or compared to the average going rate for that particular morph. I've sold stunning examples of a morph on the higher end of that range, while charging less for what I consider to be sub-par animals. It's not that this system doesn't exist, it's that it isn't labeled, and I don't necessarily think labeling it will change what already exists: Good breeders continuing to breed excellent quality animals, and selling off the ones that are not good enough for their breeding program, and lazy breeders, who continue to breed solely for profit, or out of apathy regarding quality. You know what will happen with each of these groups?

Good breeders will continue to maintain their customer base and be successful in the hobby. Their animals will maintain a level of excellence, or get better as a whole, over time.

Lazy breedres will continue taking shortcuts, or purchasing only poor quality animals, and continue breeding poor quality animals. Do you think an animal labeled as a D-Grade animal, wont be bred by lazy breeders simply because it's D-Grade? The types of people who perpetuate poor examples, are the same ones who say "I'll just get 2 D-Grade Fires instead of 1 A-Grade Fire, and spend less, but get MORE babies/money!". Anybody who falls into the respectable category noted above, will not buy the crappy animals from this person... so who are they left with? Other lazy, cheap breeders who will pay less and less for the animals being sold... to the point where the person selling the poor quality animals will either find no homes for his ugly animals, or he'll be slowly inched out of the hobby by a customer base that doesn't respect him or his animals. People who fall into this category are also more likely to drop out of the hobby due to lack of passion in the first place.

We don't need to make standards and grades for ball pythons - they already exist, and are maintained by quality breeders adhering to their own aesthetic standards, and the market who purchase them. People who breed quality animals naturally rise to the top, and those who don't, are buried in their own apathy.

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I'll let you finish reading for my explanation :)





Or, to sum it up:
A standard won't work, as the opinions differ to greatly.
Labeling up front can help visualize for new breeders the difference.
It's not meant to STOP people from breeding pet quality, but if it makes them think about quality AT ALL, it's done it's job (for me).
This is just something *I* want to use on my personal website, I don't think everyone needs or should have to, call it an experiment :)