Wheezing

I have this one ball python that has an occasional wheeze or two when breathing. I already know that wheezing is an early sign of RI. Please read this entire post as there is more to this.

I must admit that as my collection grew, I do not handle my snakes as often as I should. I raised his snake from baby to breeding size (male) in about a year, and I never noticed any wheezing. Then again I only just cleaned, fed, changed substrate and water and did not handle much.

So, since last October, breeding season came, and he went off feed, and I started rotating him with three females. He locked well. After one pairing, he did not get along with the female, they fought, were covered in pee and I gave him a warm bath. Afterwards, I noticed he wheezed a few times. I noticed that there WAS stuck shed in the nose, and also know that after baths there may be water in the nose causing a sound. I put him back and he stopped wheezing.

A few days later, he shed, and I still heard a couple more wheezes and he went straight to the vet.

The vet did a full examination, and said there was nothing outwardly wrong with him. Nothing heard in the lungs from stethoscope (sp.), nothing in the lungs from X ray etc etc. A barage of tests causing me a lot of money, but not knowing what was wrong. He said the only anomaly was that the white blood cell count was high, which may mean it has an unknown infection of some kind. He decided to give him a course of broad spectrum anti-biotic injections of fortum for 5 shots once every 3rd day.

The wheezing did not go away, nor did it worsen. Nor did he show any other symptoms. Despite being off feed for several months, he has lost no weight. 2 more weeks went on (total 4 weeks after anti-biotics). I decided to go to another vet, and he got the first vet to give the records. Again, tests tests tests and nothing was wrong with him. He just wheezed now and then for a few breaths when handled and when first put back into the box. The vet said that some snakes just make a wheezing sound, and from what he heard it did not seem "wet" and he may just not be sick at all, that some snakes are just like that. He said that all tests have been done and if I wanted to do anything else it would be a "lung wash" to get a sample from deep within the lung, and send it off overseas for testing, but recommended I do not do that because he was confident the snake is healthy and that this would actually stress the snake possibly causing a problem. I asked him about the white blood cell count found in the first blood test and he said that birds and reptiles can raise their white blood cell count very quickly, and the stress from the trip from my house to the vet clinic alone may have raised it. I took him home and while skeptical at first, but decided to trust him, yet, I kept him in a separate room anyway.

Now, some time has passed. It's been over 3 almost 4 months since this all started. He still wheezes. It is not worse, nor better. He has not lost any weight still. He has no discharge from nose nor mouth nor anything. Nothing left on the walls of the box. Good healthy tongue flicking. He just wheezes when I take him out, handle him for a while, then I hear it a few times, then it stops again. When I put him back he always wheezes a few times again the stops. I would think if it is an RI that it would have gotten a lot worse by now? Something that my vet said as well. But everytime I hear the wheeze I get very uncomfortable.

So, I've been to two vets, and the result is as I described already. The first vet I had never used before. The second one was one I trust and had helped me with several animals over the years. Now I guess I ask here. Anyone with experience please chime in.

I would like to add that the vet opened the snake's mouth and showed me the "glottis" and showed that it was completely clear of bubbles of any kind, not even saliva bubbles. I would think that after this long a time, that if it were a mild case of RI it would at least show some bubbles?

I am currently keeping him 90F warm side, 82 cool side, with humidity ranging from 50 - 70%. Basically normal husbandry. I don't see anything wrong with how I am keeping him?

Now, I don't really have any experience with RIs...but I do have a female who hisses at me when she's handled and shortly after. The sound is pretty soft and can sound like wheezing Could it be that what you are hearing is a small hiss and not actually a wheeze? I only say this because if his lungs are clear, he shouldn't be "wheezing" because wheezing indicates lung obstruction by mucus. Here's a video of wheezing in humans (yes, I realize that this is a snake and not a person...but it's pretty good about demonstrating what wheezing sounds like): http://www.stethographics.com/main/p...ls_wheeze.html Here's a video of a ball python hissing (I do NOT condone people doing this to their snakes while in shed...but it does demonstrate the sound): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBz7tQVYZ4

See if you can get a video or audio recording of the sound. That might help some people with a diagnosis.

Mine has been like that since I bought her. Same as you. Might be a slight deformation in the nostrils. If you hold his mouth open does it wheeze. Mine doesn't. You'll notice the breathing tube is seperate from the nostrils. It's something in the nostrils. Mine is a black pastel female. What's yours?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QTEpythons

Mine has been like that since I bought her. Same as you. Might be a slight deformation in the nostrils. If you hold his mouth open does it wheeze. Mine doesn't. You'll notice the breathing tube is seperate from the nostrils. It's something in the nostrils. Mine is a black pastel female. What's yours?

---

Mine is a pewter male.

How long have you had her??

What do you mean its something in the nostrils? You mean your snake has something in there causing a wheeze? The vet did not find any nostril obstruction in mine. Not sure what you mean the breathing tube is separate from the nostrils. You mean the glottis in the mouth?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BHReptiles

Now, I don't really have any experience with RIs...but I do have a female who hisses at me when she's handled and shortly after. The sound is pretty soft and can sound like wheezing Could it be that what you are hearing is a small hiss and not actually a wheeze? I only say this because if his lungs are clear, he shouldn't be "wheezing" because wheezing indicates lung obstruction by mucus. Here's a video of wheezing in humans (yes, I realize that this is a snake and not a person...but it's pretty good about demonstrating what wheezing sounds like): http://www.stethographics.com/main/p...ls_wheeze.html Here's a video of a ball python hissing (I do NOT condone people doing this to their snakes while in shed...but it does demonstrate the sound): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBz7tQVYZ4

See if you can get a video or audio recording of the sound. That might help some people with a diagnosis.

---

It is definitely not a hiss like when a snake feels threatened. It may be that he is doing it when he feels threatened but I have other snakes that are somewhat aggressive that give out a SSSSS hiss when you try to pick them up. It's not like that. It's like breathing with sound. The vet said it didn't sound "wet" like the wheezing from RIs. I thought that ANY sound breathing indicated RI?

I can't record it because its really very faint. It's not a big loud sound. It's audible if you are in a quiet room holding the snake but not recordable loud.

Can't they wheeze with clear lungs if the obstruction is in the upper respiratory tract or the nose itself??

That wheezing sound clip you posted, thanks. But that's wheezing? It sounds like a dolphin! LOL.

That hissing video sounds very bad. Mine does not sound like that. But that snake is in shed in the video, which may be why it sounds like that with the loose skin in the nostrils. Mine is a lot fainter than that, but it is also not as deliberate. It seems to coincide with the breathing, instead of letting out a sound when some dude is tickling it like in the video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hungba

Mine is a pewter male.

What do you mean its something in the nostrils? You mean your snake has something in there causing a wheeze? The vet did not find any nostril obstruction in mine. Not sure what you mean the breathing tube is separate from the nostrils. You mean the glottis in the mouth?

---

Its interesting yours is a cinnamon. I believe they are in the same locus. The glottis is seperate from the choan slit where it meets up with the nostrils. It's very interesting how they meet up. The glottis can hang out the side of the mouth when eating big prey. Since they are seperate if the mouth is held open and you hear no wheeze or not in the lungs and it only happens when the mouth is shut then it must be occurring in the upper jaw. Not saying your vet missed anything but black pastels and cinnamons as supers I believe have head issues commonly called duck bill. I think mine might have a slight deformity like a human having a deformed nasal septum. Causing a wheeze. I'll compare her face to one of my normals tonight.
These are theories of mine. She has had a intermittent wheeze for a year now, but no other symptoms.
Last night I held her for a hour not one wheeze.
I examine her tonight and post a pic of her nose if it looks diff from other snakes.

I know you mentioned blood tests, but was a culture swab ever done? Also, where are you located? I had a lung wash done on an animal once and it seems very strange that a vet would send such a thing "overseas" (mine was at the UGA Vet School). On the flip side, I have a black pastel female that whistles pretty distinctly when she breathes, but that's just simply the sound she makes (perfectly healthy).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annarose15

I know you mentioned blood tests, but was a culture swab ever done? Also, where are you located? I had a lung wash done on an animal once and it seems very strange that a vet would send such a thing "overseas" (mine was at the UGA Vet School). On the flip side, I have a black pastel female that whistles pretty distinctly when she breathes, but that's just simply the sound she makes (perfectly healthy).

---

Send overseas because I live in China.

I did ask him about a swab for culture but he has told me that despite me reading a lot about that on the internet, that if I were to take a swab from the mouth area that it would show all kinds of nasty bacteria that would be deadly in the lungs, but not in the mouth. He said if I wanted anything else done it is a lung wash. I am sure you or others may disagree with this but I am not a vet myself and many qualified people give different views I don't know who to believe. I do trust him because he has cured some really bad problems in my skink before and at that time there were also contradictory info on the internet to what he said, but he was right. I do know that that doesn't necessarily mean he is right or not this time as well.

Another black pastel/cinny with a wheeze eh? May I ask how you know that the whistle she makes is just normal and that she is perfectly healthy?

The thing is if mine were an RI I would have thought it would get a lot worse by now after so long.

By the way I live in Hong Kong, China where herps aren't so popular and thus these tests probably is why needs to be sent overseas.

I know her whistle is normal because I trust the breeder who produced her implicitly, and she said the girl has made that sound since she was a hatchling. I have also had her for quite a few months now with no change/increase in the sound.

A culture swab isn't taken of the whole mouth. The cotton swab is rubbed directly on the glottis, preferably when the snake takes a breath. Yes, it is possible to get some mouth flora in there, but it is more focused than just swabbing the mouth.

Yes, that's how wheezing sounds in people. I'm a nursing student and its pretty distinct when you hear it.

I have a pewter male that has a slight whistle when he breathes. Hes been doing this since I got him over 9 months ago.

I think some snakes just make a small noise when they breathe. It might develop over time, and it might go away eventually. If your snake is displaying no symptoms and has cleared a vet check, I think it is pretty safe to say that the snake doesn't have an RI.

Obviously, check on the snake regularly in case any other symptoms develop.



Edit: You know, I think it may have something to do with the cinny and black pastel gene now that we are all talking about it. We know that super cinnies have some duckbilling and head deformities, maybe in regular cinnamons it creates a slight whistle or wheeze?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BHReptiles

Yes, that's how wheezing sounds in people. I'm a nursing student and its pretty distinct when you hear it.

---

What about snakes? What should it sound like to be concerned vs. just normal breathing sound? I can't imagine a snake sound like that in the sound file?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaorte

I have a pewter male that has a slight whistle when he breathes. Hes been doing this since I got him over 9 months ago.

Edit: You know, I think it may have something to do with the cinny and black pastel gene now that we are all talking about it. We know that super cinnies have some duckbilling and head deformities, maybe in regular cinnamons it creates a slight whistle or wheeze?

---

ANOTHER cinny/black pastel with this? I think we really may be on to something here. I am surprised nobody noticed this before? I am guessing the duckbilled ones would whistle even more? I never heard anyone say that though. INTERESTING. It can't be coincidence that everyone on this thread who says they have one with a chronic whistle either has black pastel or cinny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annarose15

I know her whistle is normal because I trust the breeder who produced her implicitly, and she said the girl has made that sound since she was a hatchling. I have also had her for quite a few months now with no change/increase in the sound.

A culture swab isn't taken of the whole mouth. The cotton swab is rubbed directly on the glottis, preferably when the snake takes a breath. Yes, it is possible to get some mouth flora in there, but it is more focused than just swabbing the mouth.

---

Thanks. I am not doubting you. If I were to be able to do a swab like that it would be with another vet as this one is adamant that the next thing if I decide to do it is a lung wash. Seems too drastic for me for what may be either nothing or a very mild case of RI. Even the vet himself said so because he is pretty sure the snake is fine. We'll see.

But I always had the contention that if there is sound there is an RI. So some snakes just do whistle while healthy then, eh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hungba

Thanks. I am not doubting you. If I were to be able to do a swab like that it would be with another vet as this one is adamant that the next thing if I decide to do it is a lung wash. Seems too drastic for me for what may be either nothing or a very mild case of RI. We'll see.

---

I agree with you, and know you were just asking. :) Good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QTEpythons

I think mine might have a slight deformity like a human having a deformed nasal septum. Causing a wheeze. I

---

This is interesting. While listening for the wheeze, which is faint, I often have to hold my breath, because I myself have a slight wheeze when I breath. Yes, I have a slightly deviated septum. Could be something like that with him too. Just not sure why I never heard it from him before then. Could of course be that I didn't listen as much as I do now. Or could be that whatever structure is in the nose didn't develop to this extent yet while it was still a baby growing.

My boss has a whistly nose. I know because if I don't bring headphones it drives me crazy!!

So I guess it is safe to say that, there are some ball pythons that do whistle/wheeze now and then even when healthy? Not saying this is or isn't the case with mine, but it is at least a possibility? I am specifically talking about ball pythons only.

I always thought any sound other than defensive hissing meant RI.

I have a few snakes that make minor wheezing noises when roaming through my hands. They do this when you restrain them a little and they start to breath harder.
None are cinny or black pastel ;)

Sounds like some of the horror stories I've heard of when taking snakes to vets, test, after test after test, for no reason imo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a culture would have sufficed when checking for a RI

Yes, I'd say its safe to say that some ball pythons will make a slight noise when breathing and not be sick.

But if you hear your snake making noise suddenly, a vet visit is always a good idea just to be safe. The earlier you catch an RI the easier they can recover.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Sounds like some of the horror stories I've heard of when taking snakes to vets, test, after test after test, for no reason imo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a culture would have sufficed when checking for a RI

---

The OP's vet seems to have an aversion to culture swabs, and will only do a lung wash for culture, which the vet says must be sent overseas to run. Since the OP is in China, it sounds like he has limited options on vets and testing.

To the OP - If her condition hasn't changed, I would just keep a very close eye on any new/increased symptoms, and quarantine until you are certain that it isn't an illness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annarose15

To the OP - If her condition hasn't changed, I would just keep a very close eye on any new/increased symptoms, and quarantine until you are certain that it isn't an illness.

---

Any idea how I would b certain? Say, after another month or two, if there are no further changes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hungba

Any idea how I would b certain? Say, after another month or two, if there are no further changes?

---

Unfotunately, that's going to be all on what you're comfortable with. Personally, I think I'd have to go a minimum of 90 days from when I first discovered the "symptoms" before I could call them "normal".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have a few snakes that make minor wheezing noises when roaming through my hands. They do this when you restrain them a little and they start to breath harder.
None are cinny or black pastel ;)

---

This sounds like what I am experiencing. He doesn't wheeze when he is in the tank, but if I hold him for a while and he gets a little excited I hear a few wheezes, like when he is trying to go away and I stop him etc. Sometimes he just gives off a wheeze out of the blue when held but mostly when he is being restrained or stopped from going a certain direction. They don't sound like the sound clip that was posted by another member before, just faint breathing noises like a small squeak with each breath. Is that what you hear in yours?

In addition, he always seem to wheeze a few times when I let him off my hands and back into the box, then stops.

Do "RI" wheezes really sound like the sound clip that was posted?

Just as a lot of people on here I don't think it was a wheeze. I've heard people call them huffs. It sounds more like a very short and brief hiss than a wheeze.

When I first heard my girl did it, I was concerned to until I connected it to certain things. She's a drama queen and huffs at everything that annoys her. Everything from getting lost in my sweatshirt to having her tail touch the water in her water bowl. (And not to mention when I take her away from the window sill that seems to fancy.)

Mine has not wheezed for a couple of days. Comparing her to a healthy normal didn't see any abnormalities in her head structure. So I'm not sure.

Because of this post I made a thread titled. Do black pastels and cinnamons have gene problems. Check it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QTEpythons

Mine has been like that since I bought her. Same as you. Might be a slight deformation in the nostrils. If you hold his mouth open does it wheeze. Mine doesn't. You'll notice the breathing tube is seperate from the nostrils. It's something in the nostrils. Mine is a black pastel female. What's yours?

---

It's so weird that yours is a black pastel! I have a male with the same problem and he is a black pastel as well.