Has anybody ever used baytril in a nebulizer?

My small normal developed a RI and she did not respond to the first series of shots so my vet gave me a new prescription of a dual antibiotic as well as baytril to use in a nebulizer. Has anybody done this before as an intervention? Thanks for any info or tips!

Did they do a culture? To make sure the antibiotics they prescribed were the correct treatment?

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Unfortunately not, I didn't remember to ask about it when I was in the office and I don't want to take her back unless absolutely necessary because of the cold weather. I think that it made her RI worse last time because her temps dropped to 72 during the drive before the hand warmers bumped the temps back up. I hope this works though but I have heard most people talk about baytril injections so I just wasn't sure about the nebulizer. I wish I would have remembered to request one at the time though.

How long was the first set of injections? Was the treatment running for a while many weeks or just a short time? I have never heard of nebulizing baytril.

first series was four shots but it had not effect on her, she was getting worse. I haven't heard of nebulizing it and that is why I asked here

I have never seen a vet prescribe the use of a nubulizer on a snake, but a lot of herp keepers do a similar procedure with a mist maker and F10 disinfectant. The diluted f10 is used instead of antibiotics because it kills the RI bacteria. Many snakes have been successfully treated this way. So it's definitely not unheard of.

And I would definitely get a culture done so you're not just searching in the dark blindly trying out different treatments. Baytrill isn't as effective these days as before. A lot of RIs are resistant to it.

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Four shots is a very very short period most vets have runs of one to two months of shots every three days. I am not sure there is a correlation between a disinfectant and an antibiotic but in any case I have never heard of vaporizing an antibiotic. I think I would seek a second opinion at this point. You vet is treating your snake more like a mammal than a reptile. A culture is a great idea however after antibiotics have been already given it is not accurate anymore and waiting for the antibiotics to clear the system (3 weeks+) is not likely a good idea.

Yes, I have done it.
It was a few years back. Some kids found a 12' burm in the woods covered in ticks and mites. Very bad RI and way under weight.

We worked along one of the best exotics vet in the area. Rehabbed him in my home for close to two years. He had his moments of getting better but never fully recovered. :(

He was my 2nd snake and I still miss him. We did try this method and a number of other things.

Good luck with your snake.

Baytril is actually a relatively broad spectrum antibiotic, so a culture isn't absolutely required. It also has an extremely rapid onset of activity, something like 20 to 30 min after administration. As for nebulizing it, there shouldn't be a problem. Just about anything that can be injected can also be delivered by inhalation. With a respiratory infection, inhalation is very likely t be more effective than injection. Also, inhalation presents a MUCH lower risk of systemic side effects than injection. I think the only problem you're going to have is with the delivery. I've never actually tried to get a snake to wear an aerosol mask or use a mouthpiece, but I imagine it would be pretty entertaining to watch. Instead, you're going to want to place the snake in a tub that doesn't have a ton of ventilation and fog the tub. Think gas chamber.

With regard to drug resistant organisms and growth cultures, Simply doing a culture is only half the battle. If you're dealing with a resistant organism, doing a culture is going to tell you that you have an infection caused by an organism that is normally susceptible to Baytril. You still have to figure out what's going to kill it. Ordinarily, a vet will just prescribe a different broad spectrum antibiotic.

We used a large tub and hung the device from the top. If I remember, I'm pretty sure we did 30 min sessions.

Ive heard of it but never actually seen this done. I brought one of my big girls in a month or so back when she got really aggressive mouth rot. I was given baytril by my vet he did a culture and gave me 3 weeks worth of needles to be injected in the muscle tissue every 2 days. She recovered but she lost about 250 grams.

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Originally Posted by patientz3ro

Baytril is actually a relatively broad spectrum antibiotic, so a culture isn't absolutely required. It also has an extremely rapid onset of activity, something like 20 to 30 min after administration. As for nebulizing it, there shouldn't be a problem. Just about anything that can be injected can also be delivered by inhalation. With a respiratory infection, inhalation is very likely t be more effective than injection. Also, inhalation presents a MUCH lower risk of systemic side effects than injection. I think the only problem you're going to have is with the delivery. I've never actually tried to get a snake to wear an aerosol mask or use a mouthpiece, but I imagine it would be pretty entertaining to watch. Instead, you're going to want to place the snake in a tub that doesn't have a ton of ventilation and fog the tub. Think gas chamber.

With regard to drug resistant organisms and growth cultures, Simply doing a culture is only half the battle. If you're dealing with a resistant organism, doing a culture is going to tell you that you have an infection caused by an organism that is normally susceptible to Baytril. You still have to figure out what's going to kill it. Ordinarily, a vet will just prescribe a different broad spectrum antibiotic.

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So is penicillin, like baytril many bacterium are resistant to it. There is also fungal RI and viral RI (respiratory infection is a very loose term for a huge variety of individual disorders) Cultures are very valuable tools and the value should not be taken out of hand. Treating a fungal problem with anti bacterial drugs simply is a waste of time and effort. Causing stress and spending cash for absolutely no reason, it will never work.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

So is penicillin, like baytril many bacterium are resistant to it. There is also fungal RI and viral RI (respiratory infection is a very loose term for a huge variety of individual disorders) Cultures are very valuable tools and the value should not be taken out of hand. Treating a fungal problem with anti bacterial drugs simply is a waste of time and effort. Causing stress and spending cash for absolutely no reason, it will never work.

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True... However, I never said that cultures are completely worthless. My point was that cultures are not the Holy Grail. The fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of respiratory infections are bacterial, and the VAST majority of those bacteria are not resistant to antibiotics. Granted, I work on people, not pets, but the basics are the same. 95% of the time, if a patient presents with what appears to be a bacterial infection (and most of them are, not just RI's) the prescribed treatment is a course of broad-spectrum antibiotics, AND we run a culture and sensitivity panel. More often than not, that first round kills the bug. Typically the results of the C&S are back in less than 24hrs, so if we discover it's NOT something that's going to respond to the antibiotic we started with, we can make changes as we need to. Regardless, it's better to begin a treatment as early as possible rather than twiddle our thumbs waiting for test results to come back. You also have to understand we're not just making these decisions on a whim. There are a LOT of factors that go into making a diagnosis, even a preliminary one. We're not just going to look at a patient and go, "Yep. He's got SOMETHING. Better get him started on Bactrim," There are tests that can be run in MINUTES that will rule out viruses and/or fungal infections. I can run a combined blood count in just a few minutes and tell you whether you have a bacterial or viral infection based on the number and type of white blood cells present in the specimen. So, are C&S panels valuable? Yes, they are. Can you effectively diagnose and treat an infection without one? Yes, you can.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

I have never seen a vet prescribe the use of a nubulizer on a snake, but a lot of herp keepers do a similar procedure with a mist maker and F10 disinfectant. The diluted f10 is used instead of antibiotics because it kills the RI bacteria. Many snakes have been successfully treated this way. So it's definitely not unheard of.

And I would definitely get a culture done so you're not just searching in the dark blindly trying out different treatments. Baytrill isn't as effective these days as before. A lot of RIs are resistant to it.

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I've used the F10 and a fogger and can say that I got miraculous results with it.

It totally crushed a persistent, reoccurring RI with only three foggings and stopped another developing RI dead in its tracks.

I would never be caught without it again.

How is this done exactly? Is it just a reptifogger or what? What's the dilution amount???


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

Mix 4ml F10 SC in a litre of water (dilution ratio 1:250) and nebulize the reptile for approx 30 - 40 mins every day until the RI is cleared. If its a snake, after nebulizing hold it head down and clean any mucus from the mouth with an ear-bud. If you see no improvement after a week or so, go to a vet. Nebulizing works if you catch RI early however if its severe you may also need antibiotics. You should also check your environment is set up correctly - temps, humidity, etc.


MAKE SURE you are NOT using the F10 SCXD!!!!!

patientz3ro all true but Baytril can be bought off the shelf now and has been used as the first 'hammer' for what 20 years? It has been used to treat RI and just about every other infection around. It is so often used and in so many cases when there isn't even an infection at all or for durations that are simply too short to be effective that many bacteria have become resistant to it, my vet in workshops with the big vet names (Jacobsen, madder) has learned some believe more than 50% of ri cases cannot be treated with Baytril. The same way with people, antibiotics are rotated the same broad spectrum being used by 90% of doctors to treat everything for 20 years is not going to be effective. I am assuming you are a practitioner? You know that resistance is a huge issue.

I would suggest that a culture is the best way to discover if antibiotics are needed (not actually a respiratory issue especially as many vets have little to know experience with reptiles so mis diagnoses are very common) and which antibiotics many be the most effective or at least what ones are not.

Kitedemon nailed and I think was who told me to use it.

Stuff works like a charm.

:D

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Originally Posted by hypnotixdmp

How is this done exactly? Is it just a reptifogger or what? What's the dilution amount???


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

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That is directly quoted from John Berry.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

patientz3ro all true but Baytril can be bought off the shelf now and has been used as the first 'hammer' for what 20 years? It has been used to treat RI and just about every other infection around. It is so often used and in so many cases when there isn't even an infection at all or for durations that are simply too short to be effective that many bacteria have become resistant to it, my vet in workshops with the big vet names (Jacobsen, madder) has learned some believe more than 50% of ri cases cannot be treated with Baytril. The same way with people, antibiotics are rotated the same broad spectrum being used by 90% of doctors to treat everything for 20 years is not going to be effective. I am assuming you are a practitioner? You know that resistance is a huge issue.

I would suggest that a culture is the best way to discover if antibiotics are needed (not actually a respiratory issue especially as many vets have little to know experience with reptiles so mis diagnoses are very common) and which antibiotics many be the most effective or at least what ones are not.

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I went through the Baytril thing and then got switched to Amakacin.

It worked faster and better, IMO but was almost impossible to find, at the time.

That and the F10 was a killer combo.

Also, I was told how to use NIX for mites instead of the PAM and I've never seen anything so fatally satisying in my whole life.

The mites are dead dead dead!

The Boa girls are happy again, eating and both just had perfect sheds.

So, I've got a $30 can of PAM just taking up space, now.

:D

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

That is directly quoted from John Berry.

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Meh.

John Berry didn't come on here and personally help me, now did he?

So...thank you.

:D

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

patientz3ro all true but Baytril can be bought off the shelf now and has been used as the first 'hammer' for what 20 years? It has been used to treat RI and just about every other infection around. It is so often used and in so many cases when there isn't even an infection at all or for durations that are simply too short to be effective that many bacteria have become resistant to it, my vet in workshops with the big vet names (Jacobsen, madder) has learned some believe more than 50% of ri cases cannot be treated with Baytril. The same way with people, antibiotics are rotated the same broad spectrum being used by 90% of doctors to treat everything for 20 years is not going to be effective. I am assuming you are a practitioner? You know that resistance is a huge issue.

I would suggest that a culture is the best way to discover if antibiotics are needed (not actually a respiratory issue especially as many vets have little to know experience with reptiles so mis diagnoses are very common) and which antibiotics many be the most effective or at least what ones are not.

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I wish this hadn't started out as a thread about Baytril specifically, since Baytril is really kind of a bad example. You referenced it and penicillin earlier, and that's SUCH an apt comparison. Both started out as kind of a "magic bullet" that was prescribed for everything under the sun. It's a shame too, because for the organisms they still work on, they're absolutely devastating. Unfortunately, that's also why so many organisms are resistant to them. The upside is that while resistant organisms ARE a huge issue, they're not going to cause the apocalypse in the next few weeks. The majority of them are just resistant to the old standby meds. Vancomycin will still kill damn near anything.

Honestly, the ONLY thing I would somewhat disagree with in your statement is that one bold line. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think it's the most correct course of action. MY personal feeling is that a culture is a way to determine if you're on the right track with a treatment you've already started. As I said before, we can determine the etiology of an illness within minutes with simple blood tests. That is, we can tell with a great deal of certainty whether it's bacterial, fungal, or viral. Based on that test, we start treating. THEN we wait for the culture to come back and adjust if we need to. The culture serves more to back up our initial diagnosis and tell us if we need to hit harder. While that's the customary method of fighting an infection in humans, I think it's even more important when treating reptiles. It's pretty widely accepted that reptiles have to get quite a bit sicker than most other animals before they start showing symptoms. In that case, I feel like the best plan of care is to start treating aggressively as early as possible. After all, if the organism I'm trying to kill is resistant to the drug I'm throwing at it, it's not like I'm going to make it MORE resistant. Think of it this way, if you were out fishing and you were charged by a bear, would you try to shoot the bear with the pistol on your hip, or would you wait for someone to bring you the shotgun from camp?

For the record, I would also point out that a very large factor in veterinary treatment is going to be cost, and for many people, that will determine the treatment more than any other factor. While I personally don't have a problem spending a couple hundred dollars to have the top reptile vet in San Diego treat a snake that I paid less than $40 for, I'm probably in the minority.

I see your point and also agree.

I guess my perspective is born of two things. The times I have had a rescue at the vet for RI the vet proposed a culture took the sample (lung wash) and then guessed on antibiotics as a temp stop gap. Until information on a better was determined. I have a good vet.

The second is the watching others, there are so many poor vets out there. I have seen posts of a vets suggesting short durations are appropriate (days not weeks) :colbert: . If the client (perhaps after reading this or other posts similar) expects a culture be done, that a inexperienced vet then has a need and excuse to relate to a lab and hopefully the vet will be passed recommendations for dose and duration that can accurately be passed along. The tendency of treating a snake like a mammal among inexperienced vets rather than admit they are unsure and consult is more common than I ever expected.

Baytril and Penicillin as we both know have been used randomly, there is a post not too long ago of someone posting that Baytril was used because there maybe an RI and then it was oral and only three doses. This is the reason for resistance. Baytril is a great drug it is a true miracle tool but sadly a tool diminished in effectiveness from over use and abuse. I liken it to a new kitchen knife it becomes the first choice and used for everything and used to cut on everything then one day you notice it is dull and notched from misuse.

patientz3ro I think we are on the same side really I don't like to see the use of a culture downplayed not so much for the experienced but the in experienced reading these posts. I think we both agree that a culture should be considered in most RI cases especially the reoccurring ones. The other thing of note is the culture after antibiotics have been delivered may not be a useful tool until they have cleared. The time for the culture is before antibiotics have been tried not after. After the culture yes an educational guess is great, it could be accurate or at the very least help and then be adjusted to be more effective.


Salamander, I usually post where information I give is from. I would not suggest anyone take my knowledge for granted, I am not a vet. I post the source so that someone gets a leg up on their own research. I forgot, distracted by the current discussion I guess. In any event you are very welcome!

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Mix 4ml F10 SC in a litre of water (dilution ratio 1:250) and nebulize the reptile for approx 30 - 40 mins every day until the RI is cleared. If its a snake, after nebulizing hold it head down and clean any mucus from the mouth with an ear-bud. If you see no improvement after a week or so, go to a vet. Nebulizing works if you catch RI early however if its severe you may also need antibiotics. You should also check your environment is set up correctly - temps, humidity, etc.


MAKE SURE you are NOT using the F10 SCXD!!!!!

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Ty, now, where can I buy f10? Lol


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

Reptile basics sells it

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Sorry double post in accident :(

So would this be it, I see its call scvd, is that right?

http://www.reptilebasics.com/cleanin...fectant-200ml/


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)

No, that is just the F10 SC the only complaint with their products is the naming system. Lets not make it more complicated. They add dumb letters after things, why would f10 SC, F10 detergent be so hard? No, they use F10SCXD.

If you are purchasing it as a disinfectant as well. I would recommend also buying the detergent that goes with the system. (that is the f10scxd) I also really like the hand soap and the wipes as well (the wipes container doesn't seal well I stuck a bit of plastic wrap between the lid and wipes). The general issue with disinfectants is knowing it is working correctly. Short of swab tests and cultures following the instructions exactly is the only way. The f10 tech info is quite clear about the use of the f10scxd and then rinse and f10sc. I suspect any detergent or soap will work, but that is just a guess.

I buy from John and Mel Berry direct as they are the european and Americas distributer. They also carry the full line not just a single product of the line.

http://www.bigreptileworld.co.uk/f10...oducts-9-c.asp


http://www.f10biocare.co.uk/vetguidelines2.pdf